Breaking Daily Kos: Romney Paid Zero Taxes...

[caden]

Nov 5, 2012 9:13:30 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I will admit that I don't fully understand all the tax talk in this article, but I am not getting that Romney put ALL of his money in the CRUT. So couldn't he still have an average effective tax rate of 13.6%? Yes, it is lower than what it could be due to the CRUT, but how is it zero?

It's probably not zero, it's probably what his accountants said it was. Note the source and the timing.

[kadams767]

Nov 5, 2012 9:13:30 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I will admit that I don't fully understand all the tax talk in this article, but I am not getting that Romney put ALL of his money in the CRUT. So couldn't he still have an average effective tax rate of 13.6%? Yes, it is lower than what it could be due to the CRUT, but how is it zero?

I don't know for sure, obviously, but I think it is possible that he put his actual taxable income into the CRUT to avoid the taxes on that portion of the income, and then anything else he had was subject to some other deduction/deferral/loophole. Such that the sum total could still be a rate of or close to zero?

[Deleted]

Nov 5, 2012 8:55:09 GMT -5 robin said:

This is your lesson for the day.

Poor not paying taxes = mooches
Rich not paying taxes = awesome

Almost right. Should read:-

Poor not paying taxes = mooches (despite being legal)
Rich not paying taxes = awesome (because its LEGAL!)

[lys]

Legal
So what is the issue?
He provided 10 years of tax returens to the RNC when running in 2008.
All money in the fund will belong to the church on his passing.

Harry Reid had a pretty sketchy deal with property purchase a few years back, Tim Geithner had a tax issue and then there is the Obama/Resco issue that is unusual if not questionable.

[ringstrue]

IDK, its legal to drown kittens on most states too but that doesn't mean its not fucked up.

[teflep]

Nov 5, 2012 9:37:33 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

IDK, its legal to drown kittens on most states too but that doesn't mean its not fucked up.

Killing and not paying taxes are in different worlds. Outside of that, I can't even respond to this.

[kadams767]

Nov 5, 2012 9:35:51 GMT -5 lys said:

Legal
So what is the issue?
He provided 10 years of tax returens to the RNC when running in 2008.
All money in the fund will belong to the church on his passing.

Harry Reid had a pretty sketchy deal with property purchase a few years back, Tim Geithner had a tax issue and then there is the Obama/Resco issue that is unusual if not questionable.

Can you read? No one has said it's illegal. We are all discussing what we believe the issue to be. Which is that he has denounced others publicly for paying no taxes. And that he has publicly claimed that he paid an effective tax rate around 13-14%. So, if this is actually true, these are the issues.

[soontobeka]

Nov 5, 2012 9:16:10 GMT -5 caden said:

Nov 5, 2012 9:13:30 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

I will admit that I don't fully understand all the tax talk in this article, but I am not getting that Romney put ALL of his money in the CRUT. So couldn't he still have an average effective tax rate of 13.6%? Yes, it is lower than what it could be due to the CRUT, but how is it zero?

It's probably not zero, it's probably what his accountants said it was. Note the source and the timing.

Isn't the original source Blomberg but the story got picked up by DK? As for timing, I believe Bloomberg published this last week but it was not discussed (probably in part because of all of the Hurricane Sandy stuff going on)

[lys]

Do you not want to make your money work for you in the best way legally possible? I would be most disappointed in Romney if he had not done so. He used the money to benefit both his church and himself.

[lalleegag]

Nov 5, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5 lys said:

Do you not want to make your money work for you in the best way legally possible? I would be most disappointed in Romney if he had not done so. He used the money to benefit both his church and himself.

Quite the humanitarian, isn't he?

[karinothing]

Nov 5, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5 lys said:

Do you not want to make your money work for you in the best way legally possible? I would be most disappointed in Romney if he had not done so. He used the money to benefit both his church and himself.

Really? You would be disappointed if Romeny paid taxes to help out his fellow man? That is just ridiciulous.

[teflep]

Nov 5, 2012 9:55:44 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Nov 5, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5 lys said:

Do you not want to make your money work for you in the best way legally possible? I would be most disappointed in Romney if he had not done so. He used the money to benefit both his church and himself.

Really? You would be disappointed if Romeny paid taxes to help out his fellow man? That is just ridiciulous.

Oh shiiiiiit, 4 more pages of why you hate the middle class? ::munches on pbcups::

[kadams767]

Nov 5, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5 lys said:

Do you not want to make your money work for you in the best way legally possible? I would be most disappointed in Romney if he had not done so. He used the money to benefit both his church and himself.

No, I'm disappointed that he seems to think this policy only applies to him. It's awesome that he can use his money to work for him and use the tax code to his advantage, but it's a travesty that 47% of this country does the same?

[ttt]

Nov 5, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5 lys said:

Do you not want to make your money work for you in the best way legally possible? I would be most disappointed in Romney if he had not done so. He used the money to benefit both his church and himself.

I guess you have no problem with people manipulating the welfare system to get the maximum benefits legally possible for the longest time legally possible.

[lalleegag]

Nov 5, 2012 10:07:05 GMT -5 cjoy said:

Nov 5, 2012 9:55:24 GMT -5 @lalleegag said:

Quite the humanitarian, isn't he?

So generous and selfless that he felt the need to lie about it.

Now, now. He didn't lie, he just hid the truth.

[rugbywife]

The reality is that if you do something that is legal and is something to be PROUD of, you highlight it. If you do something that is legal but reflects poorly on you (because you like to highlight how 47% of the population doesn't pay taxes) you do everything you can to hide it.

But I don't find this surprising, dude is a Republican, they are all about keeping as much of their money in their pockets as possible, it's what they are all about.

[teflep]

Nov 5, 2012 10:20:38 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

.

But I don't find this surprising, dude is a Republican, they are all about keeping as much of their money in their pockets as possible, it's what they are all about.

Oh, boo.

[rugbywife]

Nov 5, 2012 10:23:09 GMT -5 teflep said:

Nov 5, 2012 10:20:38 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

.

But I don't find this surprising, dude is a Republican, they are all about keeping as much of their money in their pockets as possible, it's what they are all about.

Oh, boo.

It isn't? Aren't they about cutting taxes for the rich and big business so as to stimulate growth?

ETA: I mean, they are also about being anti-gay marriage and pro-life and all that but I meant more from an economic/taxes standpoint.

[Deleted]

Nov 5, 2012 10:38:58 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

saying that this is legal and totally ok or that its just proof that our tax code is fucked is besides the point.

this man has demonized people that don't pay taxes and has criticized obama for being out of touch and then this shit comes out?

fuck off very much.

at this point i just hope the mormon church loses its suit in the prop 8 thing, gets its tax exempt status yanked and then the church and romeny have to pay taxes on all the money.

team RT and BB

I am going to be lazy and ditto you :Y:

[lalleegag]

But, BUT he worked for it. You would do the same if you had that kind of wealth.

That shifty 47% doesn't deserve a plug nickle of that money. Never mind hiding it in a effing cults coffers.

[teflep]

Nov 5, 2012 10:44:46 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Nov 4, 2012 23:15:11 GMT -5 teflep said:

Wait, Bloomberg cracked this on 10/29 and we are just seeing it here? Did I miss something?

Maybe he was busy.

Not mayor, his media hub. are you being tic?

[Deleted]

Basically, DITTO SBP.

Its hypocritical to whine about 47% of people paying no taxes USING LEGAL DEDUCTIONS and then also paying almost nothing yourself USING LEGAL DEDUCTIONS AND LOOPHOLES. Its almost the same thing. People taking advantages of the tax system in the way it works for them.

Look, I don't fault Romney for doing it, but I DO think its disgusting given his comments on the 47%. I just think the entire US tax system needs to be overhauled. And part of the Canadian one while we're at it

[sandipluschris]

My issue is not whether or not he can or should or even did this. My issue is that he demonized the poor for doing what they needed to do to take care of themselves. My issue is that the stigma against the poor in this country is so acceptable. It’s fine for Romney to stand up in a room full of rich folks and demonize the 47% who are moochers but he himself is a moocher. We talk about the poor like they are less than human for accepting welfare to take care of their families but we don’t bat an eye to the guy who didn’t pay any taxes because he has SO much. Why is what the one side does OK and the other side is so wrong?

[NitaX]

Nov 5, 2012 11:14:53 GMT -5 sandipluschris said:

My issue is not whether or not he can or should or even did this. My issue is that he demonized the poor for doing what they needed to do to take care of themselves. My issue is that the stigma against the poor in this country is so acceptable. It’s fine for Romney to stand up in a room full of rich folks and demonize the 47% who are moochers but he himself is a moocher. We talk about the poor like they are less than human for accepting welfare to take care of their families but we don’t bat an eye to the guy who didn’t pay any taxes because he has SO much. Why is what the one side does OK and the other side is so wrong?

Ditto SBP.

And the poor has been demonized since the dawn of time. Debtors prisons anyone? While I totally understand your point, I mean the real questions is WHY can't we change this mindset? That poor is some classic failing within your own psyche. I mean, we give you Bootstraps and Bald Eagles and shit, make your own way!!!!!

Not that being poor means that something else could be wrong other than I'm a lazy bum. Not that minimum wage isn't enough for me to survive on; not that schools aren't doing a good job to keep kids from dropping out; not that we can't adequately address crime; not that we can adequately address how to train individuals for jobs; not that my broke-down hooptie is all I can afford and public transit sucks in my area ...

Just, you a lazy, no good, trifling bum who can't capitalize on the Bootstraps and Bald Eagle Fable we sell you.

And I'm real tired of this crap. I'm tired of being told that you'll take any deduction that I utilize rather than fix shit like these glaring tax loopholes. If you take my deductions without fixing this, I'm gonna scream and break shit.

[LoveTrains]

Nov 5, 2012 9:15:57 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Nov 5, 2012 9:12:32 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

There are a lot of ways that you can do planned giving (giving from your estate).

He did what is called a charitable remainder uni trust.

Basically is he makes a gift of stock or a giant pile of money to a 501(c)3 organization, in this case, the Mormon church.

The Mormon church then says that he is going to pay Romney a certain percentage of the money, yearly, as an annuity. that money is tax free.

Meanwhile, the nonprofit invests the money in the CRUT and when they sell the securities in it, they don't hae to pay the capital gains tax because they are tax exempt.

The money that is left in the trust (the remainder) when Romney passes away will then all go to the nonprofit organization.

It is a way for people to make a gift of some assets while still receiving income and receiving the tax deduction while they are still alive.

I work in philanthropy.

So is it more like he is giving them funds to invest, and then they keep the profits from the investment and he gets back the original funds?

Kind of, but even worse than that, because the way the CRUT was structured is that he gets 8% back yearly as an annuity. Because the funds were not aggressively invested, he is actually now taking from the principal of the CRUT and not just the earnings (which are free from capital gains taxes). The way that this CRUT was structured, it will basically leave with the Mormon church with very little, if any, remainder at the end.

That is why its a total loophole to avoid capital gains taxes.

[heyjude]

It's too late for this to do any damage to Romney because, lets be real, Romney is toast tomorrow. But I so hope this gets wider traction as a takedown of the GOP platform going forward.

[msmerymac]

Nov 4, 2012 23:18:21 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

then why did he run in 2008?

i don't like the guy (shocker) but something sounds wrong here.

I've been wondering this for MONTHS, since he refused to release earlier tax returns originally.

When he ran for governor of MA, he refused to release his tax returns (and lied about filing as a resident of MA vs. UT).

Then he ran in 2008, starting his campaign in 2007. Come ON. If he was governor of MA from 2002 to 2006 and obviously had his sights set on running for POTUS in 2008, how could he NOT get his financial shit in order? He should be able to release at least 5 years of tax returns, and if he had done that at the outset, no one would be hounding him about it now.

I just have no idea why he wouldn't fix this problem years and years ago. Whatever the "problem" with his taxes is.