NYT Saying NO to College

[Deleted]

www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/fashion/saying-no-to-college.html?pagewanted=1&hpw

It's long so I'll just C&P the first page


BENJAMIN GOERING does not look like Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, talk like him or inspire the same controversy. But he does apparently think like him.
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Benjamin Goering, in the office of Livefyre, where he works.
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Two years ago, Mr. Goering was a sophomore at the University of Kansas, studying computer science and philosophy and feeling frustrated in crowded lecture halls where the professors did not even know his name.

“I wanted to make Web experiences,” said Mr. Goering, now 22, and create “tools that make the lives of others better.”

So in the spring of 2010, Mr. Goering took the same leap as Mr. Zuckerberg: he dropped out of college and moved to San Francisco to make his mark. He got a job as a software engineer at a social-software company, Livefyre, run by a college dropout, where the chief technology officer at the time and a lead engineer were also dropouts. None were sheepish about their lack of a diploma. Rather, they were proud of their real-life lessons on the job.

“Education isn’t a four-year program,” Mr. Goering said. “It’s a mind-set.”

The idea that a college diploma is an all-but-mandatory ticket to a successful career is showing fissures. Feeling squeezed by a sagging job market and mounting student debt, a groundswell of university-age heretics are pledging allegiance to new groups like UnCollege, dedicated to “hacking” higher education. Inspired by billionaire role models, and empowered by online college courses, they consider themselves a D.I.Y. vanguard, committed to changing the perception of dropping out from a personal failure to a sensible option, at least for a certain breed of risk-embracing maverick.

Risky? Perhaps. But it worked for the founders of Twitter, Tumblr and a little company known as Apple.

When Mr. Goering was wrestling with his decision, he woke up every morning to a ringtone mash-up that blended electronic tones with snippets of Steve Jobs’s 2005 commencement address at Stanford University, in which he advised, “love what you do,” “don’t settle.” Mr. Goering took that as a sign.

“It’s inspiring that his dropping out basically had no effect, positive or negative, on the work and company and values he could create,” he said of the late Apple co-founder.

In that oft-quoted address, Mr. Jobs called his decision to drop out of Reed College “one of the best decisions I ever made.” Mr. Jobs’s “think different” approach to education (backpacking through India, dining with Hare Krishnas) is portrayed in countless hagiographies as evidence of his iconoclastic genius.

Indeed, ambitious young people who consider dropping out of college a smart option have a different set of role models from those in the 1960s, who were basically stuck with the acid-guru Timothy Leary and his “turn on, tune in, drop out” ramblings. Nowadays, popular culture is portraying dropouts as self-made zillionaires whose decision to spurn the “safe” route (academic conformity) is akin to lighting out for the territories to strike gold.

Bill Gates dropped out of college. So did Michael Dell. So did Mr. Zuckerberg, who made the Forbes billionaires list at 23.

Mr. Zuckerberg’s story is familiar to anyone who has seen the 2010 film “The Social Network,” in which Harvard seems little more than a glorified networking party for him. While the other Phi Beta Kappas are trudging through their Aristophanes, his character is hitting the parties, making contacts and making history. The dropout-mogul-as-rock-star meme will get a further boost with coming Steve Jobs biopics, including “Jobs,” starring Ashton Kutcher, and another one in the works written by Aaron Sorkin, who wrote the screenplay for “The Social Network.”

Such attitudes are trickling down to the small screen, too. In a recent episode of the Fox sitcom “The Mindy Project,” Mindy Kaling’s character, a doctor, grills a teenager about his plans for college. “I’m not going to college,” he tells her. “Why should I load up on debt just to binge drink for four years when I could just create an app that nets me all the money I’ll ever need?” Such tales play well in the eyes of millennials, a generation hailed for their entrepreneurial acumen and financial pragmatism. Why pay money if you can make money?

No wonder the swashbuckling Web subculture is suddenly percolating with whiz-kid programmers thinking like “one and done” college hoopsters, who stick around campus only long enough to showcase their skills (and meet National Basketball Association draft requirements) before bolting for pro riches. Tech-start-ups have their own versions of Carmelo Anthony: folks like Jack Dorsey and Evan Williams of Twitter, and Kevin Rose of Digg. (Meanwhile, David Karp of Tumblr dropped out of high school.)

[Deleted]

If people actually have a useful skill then sure, go for it and drop out.

The problem is generally people have no skills even when they have a degree.

[ttt]

That's nice for him, but the majority of college dropouts will end up working as receptionists and cashiers for $30,000 a year. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates are not your average college dropouts.

[ttt]

And seriously, not everyone in this country can be an entrepreneur.

[ttt]

Also I couldn't help but notice that nearly all of those examples of successful college dropouts are white, mostly male, and from relatively privileged backgrounds. I haven't yet seen the story of the black kid from the south Bronx who was raised by a single mother drug addict who went on to college, decided to drop out and hope for the best and ended up a multimillionaire.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2012 18:14:59 GMT -5 ttt said:

Also I couldn't help but notice that nearly all of those examples of successful college dropouts are white, mostly male, and from relatively privileged backgrounds. I haven't yet seen the story of the black kid from the south Bronx who was raised by a single mother drug addict who went on to college, decided to drop out and hope for the best and ended up a multimillionaire.

not to mention the lack of attention paid to the important connections these people made while IN college, facilitating their ability to just wing it when they left.

[aurora]

Dec 1, 2012 18:14:59 GMT -5 ttt said:

Also I couldn't help but notice that nearly all of those examples of successful college dropouts are white, mostly male, and from relatively privileged backgrounds. I haven't yet seen the story of the black kid from the south Bronx who was raised by a single mother drug addict who went on to college, decided to drop out and hope for the best and ended up a multimillionaire.

I remember an article on this very topic that I can't find right now, but it basically said that the biggest benefit of going to expensive top-ranked schools is for lower-income and first-generation students because the networking they get there puts them so far above where they were pre-college. On the other hand, the students whose parents already had connections with the rich and powerful have a lot less to gain.

Among other things, the article really drove home the importance of networking for success (which kind of counters all of the bootstrapping talk).

[Daria Morgandorffer]

I dropped out after getting my associates. I had no idea what I wanted to do but I knew that I hated school. I love learning as long as I'm interested in the material, but that wasn't really how college worked. I slaved in retail management but was determined to get an office job. I finally did making $10 an hour doing three peoples jobs. BUT it lead me to the company I work for now, and I've been promoted to Operations Manager in my years here. I don't make a fortune but it's decent and I do love my job.

I'm very lucky that it worked out for me so far, but I do worry that if anything ever happens to my job, it'll be hard to find a comparable position with no BA.

[AJL]

My husband was one of the lucky few who was able to drop out of college and make a good living for himself. At 22, he was working for a major chip manufacturer and pulling in $70K. That was thirteen years ago. He's been promoted several times and advanced his career without a problem. He just finished his bachelors degree this May. It was for his own satisfaction of having it completed, but it wouldn't have been necessary for him to advance in his industry.

I say that it's a rare person who can do what my husband did. He was at the right time in his industry, with the right experience and the right support. Obviously he's not a gazillionaire, but in the realm of regular-people-who-drop-out, it worked for him. Again, I totally agree that he is among the exceptions and not the rule.

[ringstrue]

Its been different with the personal computer mainstreaming because a lot of people got into the computer world after they got their degree or after they were already in college, myself included.

I really hesitate at the app programing. I can't help but think that apps will be a dime a dozen, so to speak, in enough time and even if you can make money making them, it might not be able to pay horribly well over time. Nevermind the people who already have their degrees who will naturally transition over to making apps as well as having all their other knowledge.

[ttt]

Dec 2, 2012 13:56:56 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Its been different with the personal computer mainstreaming because a lot of people got into the computer world after they got their degree or after they were already in college, myself included.

I really hesitate at the app programing. I can't help but think that apps will be a dime a dozen, so to speak, in enough time and even if you can make money making them, it might not be able to pay horribly well over time. Nevermind the people who already have their degrees who will naturally transition over to making apps as well as having all their other knowledge.

This is so true. App writing isn't going away, but this is a very particular and temporary time for it where demand is high and supply is relatively low. That will not last. Remember when you used to get paid big bucks for knowing HTML so everyone was encouraged to go into it because it was so promising?

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2012 18:14:59 GMT -5 ttt said:

Also I couldn't help but notice that nearly all of those examples of successful college dropouts are white, mostly male, and from relatively privileged backgrounds. I haven't yet seen the story of the black kid from the south Bronx who was raised by a single mother drug addict who went on to college, decided to drop out and hope for the best and ended up a multimillionaire.

This. I know a bunch of people who took a year off or dropped out to do something they were more interested in but they were all bankrolled. I don't think everyone should go to college but I definitely don't think everyone has it in them to be an entrepreneur.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2012 17:39:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

That's nice for him, but the majority of college dropouts will end up working as receptionists and cashiers for $30,000 a year. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates are not your average college dropouts.

It's so funny that you think cashiers make $30,000 a year.

Obviously, not everyone is Zuckerberg or Gates, and it would be unwise to assume you could duplicate their success, but if everyone realized this and went to college - wouldn't a good number of them still end up as $18,000 a year cashiers or $28,000 a year receptionists? (We would still need cashiers and receptionists). Only now they would be cashiers with a huge student loan debt.

[bronxgirl]

Dec 2, 2012 18:44:41 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 1, 2012 17:39:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

That's nice for him, but the majority of college dropouts will end up working as receptionists and cashiers for $30,000 a year. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates are not your average college dropouts.

It's so funny that you think cashiers make $30,000 a year.

Obviously, not everyone is Zuckerberg or Gates, and it would be unwise to assume you could duplicate their success, but if everyone realized this and went to college - wouldn't a good number of them still end up as $18,000 a year cashiers or $28,000 a year receptionists? (We would still need cashiers and receptionists). Only now they would be cashiers with a huge student loan debt.

There's nothing wrong with dropping out of college if it's not for you. The issue is everyone who wants to drop out comparing themselves to Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg. First of all, they didn't drop oput of some middle of the road state college- they dropped out of Harvard, so already they're on a different playing field. They also didn't drop out with the hopes of making it big someday- they already had successful groundbreaking ideas when they dropped out. Most college droputs aren't in that position.

[ttt]

Dec 2, 2012 18:44:41 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 1, 2012 17:39:22 GMT -5 ttt said:

That's nice for him, but the majority of college dropouts will end up working as receptionists and cashiers for $30,000 a year. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates are not your average college dropouts.

It's so funny that you think cashiers make $30,000 a year.

Obviously, not everyone is Zuckerberg or Gates, and it would be unwise to assume you could duplicate their success, but if everyone realized this and went to college - wouldn't a good number of them still end up as $18,000 a year cashiers or $28,000 a year receptionists? (We would still need cashiers and receptionists). Only now they would be cashiers with a huge student loan debt.

Even now, only about 22% of the population in the US has a bachelor's degree (just under 40% if you count associates as well as bachelors), so I don't think we need to worry too much about everyone going to college. Not even 90% of the country has a high school diploma.

I don't think most cashiers make $30,000 but a lot of receptionists do. And my point is that your average college dropout is not going to be founding a multimillion-dollar company. In fact, I'd say less than 99.9% of college dropouts are doing so. The vast majority of them are doing exactly the kind of jobs you'd expect someone with only a high school diploma to be doing, and it's not a particularly bright future.

For the average person, getting a college degree improves their financial prospects.

[msmerymac]

Dec 1, 2012 17:18:20 GMT -5 @kcpokergal said:

If people actually have a useful skill then sure, go for it and drop out.

The problem is generally people have no skills even when they have a degree.

This. The problem is that people at Mediocre State University see this and say, "See?! Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerburg/Whoever didn't have a degree!" Yeah, that's because when Bill Gates was at Harvard, he couldn't find the computer classes he wanted/needed for what he wanted to do. Bill Gates was TOO ADVANCED for Harvard. Bill Gates most average 20 year olds are not.