WTF MIL?

[RoxMonster]

Yeah many, many districts do not pay for advanced degrees, yet expect/require them. We are also expected to have a certain amount of professional development to keep our licenses, yet many of this takes place during the school year/day, and I know many districts that won't allow teachers to attend, or if they do, it must come out of the teacher's own pocket. I just attended a conference yesterday that cost $400 (luckily my district DOES pay), plus gas to drive 2.5 hours to it both ways, etc.

I never complain about my salary (at least not on social networking or to friends, etc.) because I knew what I was getting into and wanted to teach anyways. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WHY is it always teachers' salaries that are up for debate/discussion and getting ragged on (for getting paid too much in relation to the work people THINK they do)? I never hear about any other professions having to defend what they do each day vs. their salary ever (or at least not even CLOSE to as much as teachers). If people get sick of hearing teachers complain about their pay (which I would also get annoyed with), then why don't people stop questioning teachers about their salary and picking it apart the way they do? Then we'd have to stop defending it.

[WOT?*]

I help out in the granddaughters' classes at least 1-2 days/week. The teachers in our school (middle/upper middle class suburbia) are very fortunate to have parent helpers. Today I chaperoned a field trip and since I had to take GD2 out of school early for counseling I stayed and put in another 1.5 hours helping in class. If they didn't have parent helpers she would have had to spend another 1-2 hours cutting papers for tomorrow's project and making copies for the kids. I dropped into the other GD's class to speak with the teacher for a moment (it's Teacher Appreciation Week and I wanted to remind the kids of tomorrow's Support a Teacher event in GD's class) and in that 5 minutes was asked to sit with a student to help with his science project; the student has some special needs re: emotional development and was in a high-stress flare because of being asked to re-do his work; at the time she had a line of another 15 students waiting for her to check their work. I will also add that without me and three other parents it would have taken the four teachers *combined* another four-plus hours during non-school hours to assemble the science kits the students were using (filling 240 tiny dropper bottles of testing solutions, assembling the buckets with the products they need for the experiments, photocopying the project books and sample pages...).

Even in our district, the teachers have to spend time researching and downloading pages online because there isn't enough money in the budget to pay for books. I photocopy pages for the math program regularly because there aren't enough to go around. This is stuff a lot of teachers have to do on their own time and frequently with their own money.

I headed a book drive for less-advantaged schools in our district and we were fortunate enough to get enough books to spread to four schools in the district. There is a BIG difference in the quality of materials, students and student needs between our school and those others. A couple of them have on-campus food banks and clothing banks that are stocked by Girl Scouts and other PTAs as well.

Our teachers work their asses off (and we also have magnet disadvantaged programs, Life Skills and Extended Resources, for physically and mentally challenged students in our district) even with LIMP (early release) for planning every Friday but the teachers in the districts that have parents that have to battle between buying a gallon of milk or school supplies for their kid, and put their own money into the mix to cover it, really need to be paid - and respected - more.

[underwaterrhymes]

May 7, 2013 13:00:41 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

May 7, 2013 12:59:08 GMT -5 daisybuchannan said:

What do you think an appropriate salary is for a HS teacher with a masters degree?

Why does a HS teacher need a Master's degree?

Are you joking??

I'm not a teacher, but this really pisses me off.

[fluffaluff]

May 8, 2013 8:38:17 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

May 8, 2013 8:02:40 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Are you joking??

I'm not a teacher, but this really pisses me off.

Why would this piss you off? The teachers I know are not required to get a Master's degree.

I guess because so many people are so worried about overpaying the people who pretty much educate AND babysit their children day in and day out, without any regard to how much work it actually entails. 
Both my parents were teachers and it wasn't often that I would see my mom before 6 pm..she would make dinner and spend the rest of the evening grading papers, lesson planning or preparing projects. They often give up weekends for whatever after school activity's tournament they are required to sponsor, etc. 
its true they are paid more now than when my parents started, but obviously the economy has changed and the job has gotten a LOT more strenuous/stressful since then, too.

people who are concerned about their pay really need to get a clue.

[underwaterrhymes]

May 8, 2013 8:38:17 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

May 8, 2013 8:02:40 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Are you joking??

I'm not a teacher, but this really pisses me off.

Why would this piss you off? The teachers I know are not required to get a Master's degree.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intention. I thought your implication was that there was no way a teacher could possibly need a Masters Degree rather than to inquire as to why one would be required.

[Jalapeñomel]

May 8, 2013 10:29:15 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

May 8, 2013 8:38:17 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

Why would this piss you off? The teachers I know are not required to get a Master's degree.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intention. I thought your implication was that there was no way a teacher could possibly need a Masters Degree rather than to inquire as to why one would be required.

This is how I took it too. 

[sugarbear]

Look, I don't think teachers are overpaid, by any stretch of the imagination. But I also think teachers ought to go into this profession with their eyes wide open. I knew I would never make much money, but that was my choice. I really don't understand this debate.

(For perspective, I've been teaching 8 years, in an urban private school, vhcol. I have three masters degrees and I earn exactly $60k.)

[sonrisa]

"Donna made more starting out than I did when I retired" is very arbitrary. That sounds like sour grapes. Is everyone who happens to make more than her overpaid? If so, then there are a ton of professions she can resent that make more than a first year teacher.

[winnied]

May 7, 2013 14:26:21 GMT -5 tigress said:

Yes teachers get the summer off, but they aren't paid for it either.

The people that think teachers make too much obviously don't know any teachers personally.

If you receive an annual salary, you're paid for it. 

All of my ILs are teachers and I love how honest they are about their jobs. The went into teaching for not only the love of teaching but because it's a generally family friendly profession, especially because of the vacation benefits. They could have all been in much better paying professions (they're scary smart) but they chose teaching for the reasons I listed. 

It slays me when teachers bemoan their jobs because they have to work more than 8 hrs/day. Welcome to 2013. Most people don't work 40 hour work weeks anymore AND they don't get half the vacation/holiday time you get. And guess what else? I don't get to have a sub when I'm sick. If I'm sick I work from home just so I don't spread the plague. I don't get to rest. 

[Deleted]

My mother is a teacher, and she tells me it's really easy. LOL.

Anecdotal flameful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

I only have a minute because I'm on lunch, but I know my job has great perks. It does. I went into teaching knowing a lot of what I was getting into, based on some volunteer classroom experiences and subbing. But to say you should go into this job eyes wide open is nuts. I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I took this job. And I know that's probably true of a lot of jobs. It just feels like teachers get "attacked" the most; whether other careers do or not, I'm not sure, because obviously I'm eyes wide open about teaching stories.

Really, I love my job, but I think there's a lot that goes on that people don't understand that makes us feel like we have to automatically go on the defense when someone mentions salaries. And maybe teachers are the loudest, but it seems like every day there's something in the news about something happening with a teacher or a new law affecting teachers or on and on.

I don't think I'm wording this correctly. It's just frustrating.

[sonrisa]

May 8, 2013 11:52:28 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

My mother is a teacher, and she tells me it's really easy. LOL.

Anecdotal flameful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And it's insane that she makes the same salary as you ;-)

[Deleted]

I don't see the same level of vitriol towards any other profession that is displayed towards teaching. I make a decent entry level salary as a teacher, but my earning potential is capped really low. Teachers in my school (private) who have been here 20 years only make maybe 20-30k more than I do (still well under six figures). Public schools actually tend to pay a little more in my area but again--you hit a ceiling early. My H, who is a consultant, really has no definite cap on his earning potential and his salary has climbed almost 20k in 3 years.

I have done a number of different jobs and I agree, teaching has a family-friendly schedule and I don't necessarily work more than someone in a different industry. That said, I do work a lot and for very little recognition. Teachers are mocked, the education system is constantly put down (which it may well deserve, but it's exhausting that everyone has an opinion on how you should be doing your job), and it's not a well-respected profession on the whole. I definitely do not get the same recognition as my H, with his bonuses and reviews and admiration from peers when they hear his company name. I work with middle schoolers all day, and I can count on one hand how many times they have noticed how much I do for my class.

In VA, I believe you need a masters to teach in public school (at least, it appears that way from the certification requirements). Most private schools want to see them as well because it's a very competitive area. I buy all my own supplies and any extra curriculum materials I want. This year I paid out of pocket for the online component of my Social Studies program because I thought it would be helpful and my administration did not. My colleague pays out of pocket for the school play because the kids love it and the school doesn't have the funds.

I am salaried, I don't work full time over the summer, and I do get school vacations. Those are huge pros. If I'm out on a school day, I have to find my own sub and write a sub plan, which is more than I had to do at my government job to call in sick. That's a con.

I like teaching, I left it three years ago and came back so clearly I knew what I was getting into this time. There are a lot of pros, but I don't see why people who are not teachers can't also see the cons.

[tigress]

Yes obviously there are pros and cons to every job. If there weren't any pros about teaching, there would be no teachers. But I feel that there is a lot about teaching that people don't understand. But people like to think they know what they are talking about and attack teachers unfairly.

Yes they get the summer off and spring break, etc. But vacation is not flexible. You can't just take time off during the school year when it isn't a planned break.

Yes they get a sub when they call in sick but they have to make sub plans, etc. They only get a sub because obviously you can't leave the kids alone.

winnied, their pay is based on a 9 month contract. you can elect to get paid less and get a paycheck through the summer, but its only based on 9 months of work.

FYI I'm not a teacher but my whole family is (sister, parents).

[bronxgirl]

May 8, 2013 12:33:18 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

You know who else has a taxing job that they get little respect or recognition for? Social workers. They
don't get anything near a summer or Christmas break. You know who else? Public defenders.

I guess as someone who isn't a teacher, I have a completely different perception. It seems like many people DO recognize how hard teachers work and what a service they provide. Do we constantly discuss how little people in those other professions make? No. Do they get a week of recognition accompanied by FB memes and ecards ad nauseum? No. Do you see heartwarming news stories about them? No. Are they treated as heroes when they go above and beyond? No. Do they get discounts on necessities? No!

Hell, yeah!

[tigress]

May 8, 2013 12:36:28 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

May 8, 2013 12:34:00 GMT -5 tigress said:

winnied, their pay is based on a 9 month contract. you can elect to get paid less and get a paycheck through the summer, but its only based on 9 months of work.

Perhaps this has something to do with the total amount. If you spread the salary of a teacher in my district w/ 8 years experience and an MS out over 9 months, they make more per month worked than I do. Which is fine, because they work harder. But I have a hard time feeling super sad for them.

eta: In fairness to my coworkers, I should say that they work pretty hard. It's not as physically or emotionally taxing as I imagine teaching can be, though.

My sis has been teaching for 7 years and makes under $40k per year. No she is not in the poor house but I don't think that is a ton of money. Especially considering the 12+ hour days she works on a regular basis throughout the school year. 

I don't think teachers as a whole would run around saying how they need to make more money if they didn't get attacked by ignorant people saying they get paid WAY TOO MUCH blah blah blah. Yes there would be the few that would complain, obviously. But this is always a fight and its ridiculous.

[game blouses]

May 8, 2013 12:33:18 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

You know who else has a taxing job that they get little respect or recognition for? Social workers. They
don't get anything near a summer or Christmas break. You know who else? Public defenders.

I guess as someone who isn't a teacher, I have a completely different perception. It seems like many people DO recognize how hard teachers work and what a service they provide. Do we constantly discuss how little people in those other professions make? No. Do they get a week of recognition accompanied by FB memes and ecards ad nauseum? No. Do you see heartwarming news stories about them? No. Are they treated as heroes when they go above and beyond? No. Do they get discounts on necessities? No!

This is part of the problem. The "psychic benefit" of being a teacher has served as a salary substitute. Teachers get treated like heroes, they make a difference to kids, they get FB memes and appreciation weeks, etc. A discount on necessities? Like when I go to Office Max the week before school starts to buy 150 notebooks, 20 boxes of pens (because we are required by law to make paper and pens available to every kid), markers, ziploc bags for kids to store their textbooks in, a cart because I don't have a classroom, and manila folders for every kid? One of my friends tried to get the district to pay for her cart, and she got fired. No joke.

If we're talking about perceptions, what about "People who can't do, teach?" People with Master's degrees look at teaching as a last resort, unless they have wanted to be a teacher previously. The point of discussing salaries with teachers is that the low salary drives otherwise qualified people away from the job, and you're left with many people who are in it for the summer breaks.

[tigress]

May 8, 2013 12:50:31 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

I never hear people saying teachers get paid too much.

I'm from WI (live in IA but my family is in WI). In WI this has been a very public argument with the current governor as he changed a lot of things for certain public works (including teachers, but excluding other public workers). There was lots of backlash from the public workforce community, and then the governor's supporters would fight back too. It has been pretty ugly. And reading news articles with comments, etc. there has been lots of scrutiny that they make too much and don't pay enough for benefits, etc etc etc. So the governor cut a lot of benefits. But the teachers were getting paid based on those benefits (better benefits, lower salary). But now they have to pay more in for benefits. And their salary has not gone up to compensate. The general public thinks its good because hey they have to pay for their benefits! But they knew that when they got their job. Just as the teachers knew they had a lot of benefits paid for them when they got their job. But now they don't. 

So maybe my view is biased. Maybe in other areas of the country it isn't the same. This is just what I've seen.

[Deleted]

May 8, 2013 11:58:15 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 8, 2013 11:52:28 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

My mother is a teacher, and she tells me it's really easy. LOL.

Anecdotal flameful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And it's insane that she makes the same salary as you ;-)

I'm happily overpaid.

I don't really work that hard either.

[Deleted]

May 8, 2013 12:54:55 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Sorry, I am still caught up on no other profession experiencing the level of vitriol that teachers do.

I don't see any threads on here where people attack social workers for claiming they are underpaid.

For the record, I think social workers are indeed underpaid.  I have a BA in psych and would love to eventually get an MSW knowing full-well salaries are just as crappy on the whole as teachers can be.  I would also say in my opinion that minimum wage is too low and there are plenty of jobs out there that should pay more.  But when I say those things, people tend to agree with me, not jump down my throat for suggesting someone ought to make more money.

As I said earlier, I don't necessarily feel underpaid at the moment.  But I think the ceiling is low for teachers and that it's difficult to attract top talent (the people who should be teaching) with crappy lifetime pay and low respect.  Teachers get an appreciation week, sure.  Some can be called heroes.  But on the whole, I get far more of the "Why are you teaching when you graduated from such a good school?  You could do so much better," and "Those who can't do, teach" than anything else.

The vitriol comes more from my peers than anything.  I'm not saying I put up with a crappier boss than anyone else.

[Deleted]

I don't think we are, for the most part, underpaid. In some places we are, but not most.

BUT, some of the comments in this thread tick me off.

[snickers]

Mil's opinion on this is wrong. There is no teacher out there who is overpaid.