Here's the thing - BPO's post was racist, because it presupposed that people of different races are also of different classes. And since that's not easy to back peddle out of, it is taking a lot of words to try.
Bottom line, sadly, is that I am now putting BPO right up next to Nama on the wall of people who hid their crazy well. Until they didn't.
I didn't respond after our exchange the other night, but I can imagine what a man who mumbles sounds like without you bringing up cartoon characters. We're intelligent, we get it, we've all heard mumblers. (She deleted this reference, FWIW).
Sorry but my computer froze when I went to another site. Y'all are lucky that other wall of text didn't post.
I apologize for coming off as racist. I'm not trying to back-pedal. I specifically said I was staying on to take my lickings.
meggers5 - thank you for finding that. If that's what I said, I truly apologize because that was not what I meant and subsequent posts should have borne that out. I was trying to figure "Where do they get that it bothers me?" and "Where do they get that I think all races are on a different socio-economic plane?" My neighborhood, my friends and my background simply don't bear that out. So, I thank you directly for finding and quoting and calling me on it. To clarify: It doesn't BOTHER me. I repeat: Biracial couples do not bother me. (I've been half of several of them). How I said it was incorrect and I stand corrected. I would, however, NOTICE it if differences were visibly apparent. It's an anomaly, not the norm. I would notice if there was such an apparent difference in socio-economic backgrounds. Because that's what I notice. It would have jarred me. This commercial didn't. People were all "OMG How do you get the dad is middle class from that?" And it ballooned from there.
pj Frankin - I didn't post the picture or reference the cartoon character as a racist insult at.all and to call me out on it is poorly done of you. I said "he mumbles and garbles his speech and isn't intelligible (or something along those lines), like Mushmouth from the Cosby cartoon" and also stated directly to you if you can think of a better example, have at it and I will give you the caveat. Granted, I suppose I could have said "he mumbles" but he doesn't. It was an example. Not racist. Specific. Race had nothing to do with it. And you know, or should have known, that. You're smarter than that. If YOU chose to interpret it that way based on other things, and because it was an easy assumption, that is on you. Calling me out on it is easy and unfair and wrong of you simply to add to a pile-on. Also, I edited before you posted because I figured it was unfair and would be taken out of context. Go figure.
I am trying to NOT hide the crazy. It was an explanation, initially, on how the commercial didn't register to me as bi-racial and therefore some big deal. I never noticed until it was posted. Just because the dad is black is a reason to not buy Cheerios? That's fucking sad. But if you don't notice that it's bi-racial you're lying or oblivious? I stated I didn't notice because it wasn't obvious to me. They're a normal couple, like a zillion others in my neighborhood. Like some of my very good friends and neighbors. The guy is a middle-class dude - in a different frame and never shown with the wife so I didn't catch that there was this big thing going on. I didn't get the message because there wasn't one, at least to me. The end. If he was apparently different from the middle-class wife, it would have caught my eye. The skin color wasn't the difference because it's NBD; if they'd paired a more different couple socio-economically (fine, let me say hillbilly and high-fashion model, both white, okay?) it would have been a different story. I would have noticed the discrepancy, so to speak. It's a commercial. I am sorry it seems to be seven (or more by now) pages of crazy, racist ranting.
I apologized (in the other post) for it coming off as "stereotypes against black guys." That's not true at all. I will freely admit I have a poor first impression of *anyone* (including my own kids) over a "certain age" who wear pants he has to pull up because they fall down past the knees, show underwear, etc. I try to overcome that negative first impression but I do have it and I'll admit to it. Ask my sons what I've said about their clothing from 15-21+. It's an impression of "what do you plan for your future? What kind of job can you get with that?" It's about appearances and impressions. Most of you, I think, if you were honest with yourselves, would agree that your first impression of anyone wearing baggy clothes and visible underwear (or ripped jeans or whatever) isn't someone you'd think "hey, he's going places!" How many of you would deny that you wouldn't grab your purse a little closer or maybe even cross the street if you saw a group of young men (regardless of race) dressed in baggy jeans headed your way? We all harbor our prejudices. I will admit to mine. I will not admit to it being a racist prejudice because I harbor the same prejudice for anyone with the same general presentation. I have in the past and continue to do so. I work to overcome it, but it's there.
Mea culpa. I will apologize for the various interpretations of what I said and for my walls of text. I will apologize for being a snob. I won't apologize for what wasn't said and what wasn't meant.
@nugget Brain - Again, I apologize. It's coming across as ugly, I admit that. I don't mean it that way. But the BA, the brains and the rest of it are part of the package. It's not the baggy jeans - that's emblematic. (And fwiw your brother is miles ahead of me in the brains and education department. Hell, unless he's ugly as sin he's got me in the looks department too. All over the map. I'm a middle-class, middle-of-the-road boring frump. But if I saw him and me walking down the street together, him dressed in baggy jeans and me dressed like a middle-class house-frump, YES I'D LOOK! Sheesh. It's not a better or worse, it's that it's *different* and something a normal person would notice. Or so I would assume.
Again, it's about the appearance of the couple together that would make me take a second look, not the fact that it's a bi-racial couple. Do they fit together? And it's not *wrong* it's just something that would make me take a second look. It's not "usual." Okay?
If your brother was wearing his baggy jeans with say, a wife-beater or something - and he was coupled with the middle-class drone in her beige suit (again, by appearances) that was the wife, you can bet that I probably would have noticed it was a bi-racial couple in the damn commercial - because it would be an anomaly. Because it was a guy in a button-down, slacks and argyle socks (I went back to see if my first impression was incorrect), the fact that I was supposed to notice this "big thing" wasn't a big thing.
It started out (and remained for much of it) about the couple in the commercial. That's the point I'm trying to make. The couple *worked* in the commercial. They were complementary. Physically complementary. Boringly complementary. With a cute kid.
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
Here's the thing - BPO's post was racist, because it presupposed that people of different races are also of different classes. And since that's not easy to back peddle out of, it is taking a lot of words to try.
Bottom line, sadly, is that I am now putting BPO right up next to Nama on the wall of people who hid their crazy well. Until they didn't.
Here's the thing - BPO's post was racist, because it presupposed that people of different races are also of different classes. And since that's not easy to back peddle out of, it is taking a lot of words to try.
Bottom line, sadly, is that I am now putting BPO right up next to Nama on the wall of people who hid their crazy well. Until they didn't.
I like this.
melindafelinda, I have a feeling you have a running tally of likely crazies, definite crazies, and a semiannual "most likely to show her ass" award. You always have advanced hunches about who the crazies are.
melindafelinda, I have a feeling you have a running tally of likely crazies, definite crazies, and a semiannual "most likely to show her ass" award. You always have advanced hunches about who the crazies are.
To be fair l think like 99% of people are assholes or crazy.
melindafelinda, I have a feeling you have a running tally of likely crazies, definite crazies, and a semiannual "most likely to show her ass" award. You always have advanced hunches about who the crazies are.
To be fair l think like 99% of people are assholes or crazy.
Ha, I almost followed up with, "Then again, you may just assume we're all nuts"
Post by melindafelinda on Jun 3, 2013 19:54:42 GMT -5
I'm like The Oracle of Crazy. If I say who I think is going to crazy they get mad and go crazy. So did I cause it or just predict it? Spoon benders may never know.
:sigh. That's not what the post was about. I never said all races were different classes. I was trying to say the exact opposite. At times, anyway. Walls of text give lots of opportunity to pick and choose your battles. I got caught up in it. Mea culpa.
:sigh. I give up. I'm nuts and I'm racist. Believe what you will. I'm sorry.
:sigh. That's not what the post was about. I never said all races were different classes. I was trying to say the exact opposite. At times, anyway. Walls of text give lots of opportunity to pick and choose your battles. I got caught up in it. Mea culpa.
:sigh. I give up. I'm nuts and I'm racist. Believe what you will. I'm sorry.
No. We all totally get that president Obama would be fine for your daughter. It's just the average black guy that isn't. You aren't being misunderstood at all. What you misunderstand is that your default position - that MOST black men are low class, and that the fashion and speech you associate with them makes them punks not worthy of your daughter - is itself racist.
My husband wears board shorts and hoodies, hasn't had a paying job in 5 years, and smokes weed all day. He is also whiter than white, has degrees from three of the best schools in the world, and a trust fund. I am certain you would think he was a wonderful match for your daughter. Take away the white, the schooling, and the trust fund, and he's your worst nightmare. And that is racism. It's classism too. But being classist doesn't prevent you from also being racist. They are actually quite compatible.
We're going in circles. I get what you're saying. But you all are putting words in my mouth by saying I assume that *all* (or most) black guys fit the stereotype. "The average black guy" and "most black men are low class...punks...is (the) default" is absolutely incorrect. That BF fits the stereotype is far different from "average" and "most." I will admit to saying "those that present like BF, in baggy jeans that hang past their butt cheeks and have to be pulled up from around their knees " (or something to the effect. And for the record, that doesn't include all guys in baggy jeans. There is a ratio of ass to underwear that is acceptable. Hope that helps.) To the best of my knowledge, I've said many times that my beliefs were quite the opposite. DD's BF and his group are stereotypical, which doesn't correlate at all to "most black males are stereotypical." I'm aware I'm holding DD's BF to the stereotype, it's wrong but it's true. What purpose would be served in lying about it? Because I hold him to the stereotype does not mean I hold the majority to that same standard. He's not the norm. There is no "norm" to default to here.
I won't go into who is good enough for my daughter because "not worthy" is incorrect; you're under the assumption that I'm "pretty pretty princess is too good for him." That's my fault. I assume you all know history (there are some pretty elephantine memories on ML and it's common knowledge I have the grands, I thought) and all that crap. I'll address the issue of what she needs vs. what she has. It's not a matter of BF being a "punk" but, as I said before, she "becomes" the guy she's with. So yes, I'll sound priggish but I don't hold with "Imma gonna" and "baby gurl" speak if that's not how you're raised and not how you acted or spoke before or when you're not with that person; it's fake and hypocritical. Honestly, I'd love her to date an Obama (or Nugget's brother; since she tossed him in the mix I'll throw her under that bus. He sounds freaking smart and driven and pretty darn awesome) if that someone was able to push her and motivate her and maybe even mold her a bit because she'd mold herself to the type of person she would think appeals to him, and become better for it. She molded herself into a country-music, NASCAR lover for an ex, now she's a hip-hop fan and "baby gurl" speaker because that's who she's dating. THAT is what drives me (and others) nuts. It's not who she is irl. It's not a racist thing so much as it's a hypocritical BS thing. She molds herself to the guy she's with. What she *needs* is not a guy per se, but a specific guy. She needs education, drive, ambition and motivation but she won't get it without a guy who values those same things to push her and get her there. It is critical for her. I don't give a damn about the color of the skin and I know too many educated black men to think "uneducated and unwilling to work" (or whatever my current sin might be) is the default. It's driving me nuts that you guys think that I believe that stupidity so congratulations to you all.
DD needs someone better to use my "racist" elitist and classist term, than her current BF and better than her. She needs someone better than me and I'll be the first, second and third person to say that. I don't give a damn about the color of his skin or what clothes he wears or even whether it's a him or a her. I care that he can motivate her and get her to better herself so she can have a chance at life. If she doesn't find that person, she loses it all. I want her to have the chance she's about to lose. She wants her daughter and her daughter wants her. Everything else is irrelevant. That won't happen with BF, or any of his group (maybe his aunt if she'd listen to her, but she's not there anymore.) With someone like Nugget's brother (for example), if it's someone who can motivate her to care, she has a chance. I value education, work ethic, ambition, motivation, as do many of the people around me (including the judges and caseworkers, etc.) That will get her where she needs to be, to where she can claim her daughter. She doesn't have it in the right way (she's a game player, manipulator, and will do whatever she feels is necessary to get her way) but it's always been a "fingers crossed" that someday she'll get an education and the rest (the honesty and fair play) will fall into place. The "right" guy can give her that. I don't give a damn about anything except can he get her to where she needs to be? The rest can go to hell.
Again, I was wrong to bring BF into the discussion. I pulled out the stereotype card and named him as the stereotype. Which was wrong. I agree with that, totally and completely. It's why I stayed and took my lumps. And I muddied the waters badly by doing so. By bringing BF into it, and by how I brought him into it, the lumps are earned and outrage deserved. I worded it incorrectly when I said it "bothered" me to see "inequalities" in a bi-racial post when I was referring to socio-economic differences as can be noted by appearance regardless of race. For the love of Pete, I've said it several different ways. Are we clear here yet?
DD2 is who and what she is. Because she is, she needs someone who will "better" her. She needs a cause and that cause, unfortunately, is always her man. So he has to be "better" so he can motivate her to be better too. I want to see her out of the cycle of poverty, homelessness, rootlessness. Education is key to getting out of that cycle. If she finds the right man maybe someday she can be a positive example for her kids. Maybe she can save herself.
It's not that he's not worthy or she's too good. The problem is she's not good enough and needs to be better. BF can't do that for her and she can't do it for herself. She needs someone who can help her get there because she's going to lose it all. She needs someone who cares and who can get her to care about the right things. Like education. Having a direction. I'm her child-stealing bitch of a mom so she won't hear it from me. She needs to hear it from her partner because she won't listen to anyone else. We've all tried.
What can I say? She's my daughter. I love her and don't want her devastated. In two weeks, she will be destroyed. On a different path she might have a chance. She'll never get on that path with BF, or anyone like him, because he's stuck on that same path. That path has nothing to do with his race (or his pants) and everything to do with the rest of the package. As I said before, I hope none of you ever have to walk in my shoes when your children are grown. I hope your babies all stay beautiful and strong and everything you want for them. It sucks when that doesn't happen.
elle - If your DH was the guy in the commercial, coupled with that same gal in the commercial, it would click with me. I've said as much. An acquaintance of mine is a popular author (with a movie to her credit) and graduate of a very prestigious university who is married to a surf instructor who smokes dope so, yeah, if I didn't know them and saw them on the street together dressed in their respective "uniforms" I would do a double-take. If I saw them as the couple in this Cheerios commercial, I'd laugh at the punch line. Like the '80s dad in the Toyota commercial, I'd get the joke. I'd undoubtedly do a double-take at first if I saw you in your lawyer-suit and your DH in his board-shorts walking down the street, and I'd wonder about the relationship. How do you know each other? How did two such apparently different people meet? Do you like surfing? Is he on vacation? Is he a client/customer? Skin color be damned, it's "what is that gal in the designer label doing with the guy in the surfer-dude clothes?" If you were in casual clothes it would be totally different. You'd "fit" because you're both casual. Maybe this isn't normal, but *I* would look and I'd wonder to myself if there was such a disparate appearance. It's a fun game to play. I do that stuff. Maybe it's just me though.
If your DH didn't have a job for five years and no motivation to do anything *beyond* smoke weed and laze about, wanting you to support his habits and lifestyle when you don't have the means (or desire or education) to do so, that is my nightmare boyfriend. Your DH has the education and the trust fund (and honestly a really cool job even if it doesn't pay) and you have the means, so it's moot. But if he didn't? BTDT. DD1's XBF fits your criteria to a T. No trust fund, no job, he expected her to support him and whined and complained when it wasn't enough, didn't have an education (despite my encouragement and willingness to help subsidize it), spent money they didn't have on weed and cigarettes and was generally an anchor. He would be, by your description, your DH if he didn't have a job and education and a trust fund. By my definition he was my worst nightmare so you are correct. The difference is that he *was* white. Despite that non-issue, he was my "worst nightmare" for my daughter; his race had absolutely nothing to do with how much I disliked him for how he treated his (my) family. For seven years, he was suffocating my daughter and dragging her down (literally and figuratively) as she worked her butt off and tried to climb up out of the trenches and better her life and the life of their son and their family. They suffered because he was jobless and rootless and afraid. Rootless and aimless and causing needless suffering to those you are supposed to care for kills me every time.
FFS Mrsbpo just own up to the fact that you are unknowingly racist/classist and apologize for it without a wall of text. Then work on not judging and stereotyping people.
I feel like I am seeing my MIL in you. She wanted a certain type of girl for her little boys and I am the complete opposite. To this day I am sure she is behind my back talking about what my DH could have been if not for me. But the truth is DH and I are happy with each other, and all of my MIL's constant complaining and attempts to change us won't break our marriage.
If your daughter is going to straighten up, she will do it in her own time. You aren't helping. Just back out, work on yourself, and be there for her when it comes crashing down.
elle - If your DH was the guy in the commercial, coupled with that same gal in the commercial, it would click with me. I've said as much. An acquaintance of mine is a popular author (with a movie to her credit) and graduate of a very prestigious university who is married to a surf instructor who smokes dope so, yeah, if I didn't know them and saw them on the street together dressed in their respective "uniforms" I would do a double-take. If I saw them as the couple in this Cheerios commercial, I'd laugh at the punch line. Like the '80s dad in the Toyota commercial, I'd get the joke. I'd undoubtedly do a double-take at first if I saw you in your lawyer-suit and your DH in his board-shorts walking down the street, and I'd wonder about the relationship. How do you know each other? How did two such apparently different people meet? Do you like surfing? Is he on vacation? Is he a client/customer? Skin color be damned, it's "what is that gal in the designer label doing with the guy in the surfer-dude clothes?" If you were in casual clothes it would be totally different. You'd "fit" because you're both casual. Maybe this isn't normal, but *I* would look and I'd wonder to myself if there was such a disparate appearance. It's a fun game to play. I do that stuff. Maybe it's just me though.
Or you could just think, "hey, there are two people walking down the street." Sometimes DH and I will go on a date and I'm dressed all nice and he's wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Would you wonder the same thing?
And what is with saying that the commercial clearly shows them being middle class? For all you know they could be pot pushers like Nancy Botwin.
Also, my H and I don't really go...he's a balding nerdy engineer (I love guys who look like college professors, drooool) and I am frequently found in hoodies, jeans and Chucks with a ponytail (coughslobcough). He's utterly perfect for me.
Also, my H and I don't really go...he's a balding nerdy engineer (I love guys who look like college professors, drooool) and I am frequently found in hoodies, jeans and Chucks with a ponytail (coughslobcough). He's utterly perfect for me.
I typed and deleted almost this exactly. DH dresses all business casual on days he works and I am frequently found in work out clothes, miles from a treadmill. Suck it haterz.