update bfing AF moms

[drunkpeggy]

Regarding the civilian photographer losing her job: This is what is so messed up about "at will" employment. I highly doubt their were TV crews following this woman and causing mass hysteria at her place of employment. To be fired because of "all the media attention" is BS.

Regarding the Airmen (Airwomen?), I'm torn. On one hand, I'm 100% supportive of female employees (regardless of civilian or military status) receiving support to breastfeed and pump. However, I did get the impression that doing so in uniform for a photo shoot was teetering on the edge of "let's make a statement".

I'd also like to know what their reprimand was. Was it just a counseling statement or was it a deduction in pay/extra duty?

[drunkpeggy]

Jun 15, 2012 13:55:34 GMT -5 @ojo said:

They had permission to wear the uniforms for the photos. Why isn't that weighing more heavily in the debate?

With that in mind, the superior who gave them the permission should be given a reprimand as well if those that appeared in the photo will be reprimanded.

[drunkpeggy]

Jun 15, 2012 14:05:04 GMT -5 @ojo said:

A reprimand cannot include reduction of pay or additional duty. Those can only come from NJP or court-martial.

Good to know. I thought it was just being used as a catch-all term.

[bigmamma]

Jun 15, 2012 13:55:34 GMT -5 @ojo said:

They had permission to wear the uniforms for the photos. Why isn't that weighing more heavily in the debate?

I missed this part. My question would be WHO gave them permission? Was the total concept briefed to the approval authority and was it brought to a PAO?

IMO - it is a clear violation like Capt Kosik stated in his official release about the reprimand: “The uniform was misused. That’s against regulations,” Kosik said. “I want to be very, very clear about this. Our issue is not, nor has it ever been, about breastfeeding. It has to do with honoring the uniform and making sure it’s not misused. I can’t wear my uniform to a political rally, to try to sell you something or push an ideology. That was our point of contention.”

I agree that the issue that these two were given permission should be further investigated, and whomever told them "Yeah, go ahead" should be held accountable as well - and IF - big IF - the Airmen/Photographer mis-lead the approval authority it should be dealt with appropriately.

I'm not doubting you at all, OJO, I just missed the coverage that said they had permission to use the uniform. I am assuming that the individual who approved their participation would have done so with the same rules as OPLOVE (no PII, no use of official insignia for profit personal gain, etc).

Thoughts?

[bigmamma]

Jun 22, 2012 1:19:17 GMT -5 Stan said:

The uniform does push an ideology though. It's just one I happen to agree with. That America rules and pacifism doesn't always work. That's far more political than breastfeeding. I think that's the problem. It's not political. Health shouldn't be. It's sad that it is. And it's why I believe the war on women is real, because a health issue shouldn't be political, but it is because there's lady parts involved.

I'll give you that - however - it is an ideology that is governed by training, standards, values and regulated by the UCMJ, various Service policies... etc. The "ideology" of the Military which is pushed by the uniform is highly selective/regulated. It is supposed to represent COUNTRY and SERVICE not an individual.

I tell Soldiers all the time - if I notice something about YOU that brings my attention to YOU over the Uniform - you're wrong (this is usually in relation to uniform fit, cosmetics, "wear and appearance"). We have regulations governing all of this (as you know).

The uniform isn't a graphic T supporting a random personal agenda. The right to wear it is earned. The legacy behind it should be respected. The uniform stands for much much more - and that reputation, that ideology, that heritage should be held sacred not put up on a poster to push personal agendas.

Get your blow torch ready - I KNOW that you believe there is a war on women ---> but I have never had an issue with BF'ing, pregnancy or anything child related with my command - "but you're a reservist" - yep so are the two Airmen in the photos. This campaign wasn't JUST about breast-feeding it was about bare-breasted public breast feeding. It was pushing the RIGHT to feed openly with your breasts out regardless of location or surrounding audience. It was a specific agenda. It also gives the impression to the general public that you are not-allowed to breastfeed in uniform.

Please read the following as questions not as condescending statements in the form of a question: How many female service members in/around your duty station are walking around in their uniform with a baby on one hip throughout the duty day for "on demand feeding"? How truly relevant is THIS issue within our military? Should regs be changed so a woman in the military can bring her baby to work so she can feed them "on demand"? Should there be a policy to allow women who choose to BF for 2-3 years to bring their kids to work?

The uniform isn't about the individual. Its purpose is to unify the force, presented a united front. Our actions in the uniform are restricted - like it or not. The Military is not about the individual. If a person wants their freedoms unrestricted they should NOT join the military.

[drunkpeggy]

Jun 22, 2012 7:24:04 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

Jun 22, 2012 1:19:17 GMT -5 Stan said:

The uniform does push an ideology though. It's just one I happen to agree with. That America rules and pacifism doesn't always work. That's far more political than breastfeeding. I think that's the problem. It's not political. Health shouldn't be. It's sad that it is. And it's why I believe the war on women is real, because a health issue shouldn't be political, but it is because there's lady parts involved.

I'll give you that - however - it is an ideology that is governed by training, standards, values and regulated by the UCMJ, various Service policies... etc. The "ideology" of the Military which is pushed by the uniform is highly selective/regulated. It is supposed to represent COUNTRY and SERVICE not an individual.

I tell Soldiers all the time - if I notice something about YOU that brings my attention to YOU over the Uniform - you're wrong (this is usually in relation to uniform fit, cosmetics, "wear and appearance"). We have regulations governing all of this (as you know).

The uniform isn't a graphic T supporting a random personal agenda. The right to wear it is earned. The legacy behind it should be respected. The uniform stands for much much more - and that reputation, that ideology, that heritage should be held sacred not put up on a poster to push personal agendas.

Get your blow torch ready - I KNOW that you believe there is a war on women ---> but I have never had an issue with BF'ing, pregnancy or anything child related with my command - "but you're a reservist" - yep so are the two Airmen in the photos. This campaign wasn't JUST about breast-feeding it was about bare-breasted public breast feeding. It was pushing the RIGHT to feed openly with your breasts out regardless of location or surrounding audience. It was a specific agenda. It also gives the impression to the general public that you are not-allowed to breastfeed in uniform.

Please read the following as questions not as condescending statements in the form of a question: How many female service members in/around your duty station are walking around in their uniform with a baby on one hip throughout the duty day for "on demand feeding"? How truly relevant is THIS issue within our military? Should regs be changed so a woman in the military can bring her baby to work so she can feed them "on demand"? Should there be a policy to allow women who choose to BF for 2-3 years to bring their kids to work?

The uniform isn't about the individual. Its purpose is to unify the force, presented a united front. Our actions in the uniform are restricted - like it or not. The Military is not about the individual. If a person wants their freedoms unrestricted they should NOT join the military.

Well said.

[drunkpeggy]

Jun 22, 2012 10:41:52 GMT -5 Stan said:

Jun 22, 2012 7:24:04 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

I'll give you that - however - it is an ideology that is governed by training, standards, values and regulated by the UCMJ, various Service policies... etc. The "ideology" of the Military which is pushed by the uniform is highly selective/regulated. It is supposed to represent COUNTRY and SERVICE not an individual.

I tell Soldiers all the time - if I notice something about YOU that brings my attention to YOU over the Uniform - you're wrong (this is usually in relation to uniform fit, cosmetics, "wear and appearance"). We have regulations governing all of this (as you know).

The uniform isn't a graphic T supporting a random personal agenda. The right to wear it is earned. The legacy behind it should be respected. The uniform stands for much much more - and that reputation, that ideology, that heritage should be held sacred not put up on a poster to push personal agendas.

Get your blow torch ready - I KNOW that you believe there is a war on women ---> but I have never had an issue with BF'ing, pregnancy or anything child related with my command - "but you're a reservist" - yep so are the two Airmen in the photos. This campaign wasn't JUST about breast-feeding it was about bare-breasted public breast feeding. It was pushing the RIGHT to feed openly with your breasts out regardless of location or surrounding audience. It was a specific agenda. It also gives the impression to the general public that you are not-allowed to breastfeed in uniform.

Please read the following as questions not as condescending statements in the form of a question: How many female service members in/around your duty station are walking around in their uniform with a baby on one hip throughout the duty day for "on demand feeding"? How truly relevant is THIS issue within our military? Should regs be changed so a woman in the military can bring her baby to work so she can feed them "on demand"? Should there be a policy to allow women who choose to BF for 2-3 years to bring their kids to work?

The uniform isn't about the individual. Its purpose is to unify the force, presented a united front. Our actions in the uniform are restricted - like it or not. The Military is not about the individual. If a person wants their freedoms unrestricted they should NOT join the military.

Of course uniforms are restricted, as they should be. However, if someone in the US Air Force can go into the grocery store, go to a restaurant, go about their daily business in uniform, it should be no different to breastfeed.

Breastfeeding is not a personal agenda. It's not a political issue. It's a health issue. If people can physically, emotionally, and mentally breastfeed, they should be able to. It's healthy.

And I have never seen a female SM breastfeed on MCBCP. To say it's not relevant because of that though is silly. Perhaps that just means that most of them pump or give up on bfing because it's too hard, they're not supported at work to bf, etc. I wish there was a CDC in every Area on Camp Pendleton so working moms could visit and bf (and dads could visit).

I don't know what them (or you) being a reservist has to do with anything either. The photo was to promote bfing for female SMs. It was for their base group only. It was not meant to be a national campaign.

I don't think anyone is saying "NO BREASTFEEDING IN UNIFORM". I think the issue is that they are making it an issue by posing for the photo in uniform (even though they received permission) and posed in such a way that says "Look at me and my boobs and my breastfeeding!". It's the intention not the action. How does this picture help nursing/working mothers? How does this picture help nursing service members? Are nursing mothers not allowed to pump when necessary? Instead of taking the picture or in addition to doing so did they do any type of petition to a higher ranking official for support of nursing service members?

As a breastfeeding mother I will never understand how doing a "nurse in" or similar protest gets your point across. If anything it's just drawing negative attention to yourself...the same attention you didn't want in the first place, the same attention you are protesting against.

[meltoine]

The photo absolutely serves a purpose. Breast feeding can be an isolating and lonely experience, especially in the beginning when you have no idea what you're doing and the kid is on your boob all day and all night. Then once you finally begin to feel like you're getting the hang of it, it's time to go back to work and you have to figure out the logistics of keeping your kid fed while you're away most of the day.

The photo says, "don't give up. It is possible to make this work, even with a career as demanding as being a United States Airman. You can do it and you're not alone."

It's not about getting approval for public BFing from other people. It's about making it easier for moms.

[drunkpeggy]

Jun 22, 2012 11:38:02 GMT -5 Stan said:

Jun 22, 2012 10:56:45 GMT -5 drunkpeggy said:

I don't think anyone is saying "NO BREASTFEEDING IN UNIFORM". I think the issue is that they are making it an issue by posing for the photo in uniform (even though they received permission) and posed in such a way that says "Look at me and my boobs and my breastfeeding!". It's the intention not the action. How does this picture help nursing/working mothers? How does this picture help nursing service members? Are nursing mothers not allowed to pump when necessary? Instead of taking the picture or in addition to doing so did they do any type of petition to a higher ranking official for support of nursing service members?

As a breastfeeding mother I will never understand how doing a "nurse in" or similar protest gets your point across. If anything it's just drawing negative attention to yourself...the same attention you didn't want in the first place, the same attention you are protesting against.

The intention of the photo says, look, I am a breastfeeding service member. Nothing more, nothing less. It encourages female service members to bf. Nothing more, nothing less. And again, this was not a photo to change any policy, or elicit support from any higher ups. It was to encourage other service members to breast feed. That's all. Not a political statement. It's the people who are against the photo who are turning it into a political statement, not the ones in the photo.

Frankly how does taking a photo encourage breastfeeding? I didn't decide to breastfeed because I saw photos on all the mom blogs...I did it because I educated myself through research. I suspect many women who do breastfeed took a similar course. It's a personal choice and one that should not and does not have any bearing on being a service member.

It's just very much "I am woman watch me breastfeed in a military uniform and then watch everyone gasp" for me. In all this uproar I haven't heard these ladies or the photographer say "this photo was included in a blog post/pamphlet/literature on the benefits and/or how-to's of breastfeeding. By the way you can find that information here or let me talk about it right now." If that's the case steer the photo back to your main agenda but the fact that no one has said anything to that effect again leads me to believe it was a grab for attention.

Furthermore, it's not the responsibility of these Airmen (women?) (someone please clarify that for me) to take it upon themselves to encourage other service members to do one thing or another while wearing the uniform. They can't take photos of themselves eating ham sandwiches in uniform to encourage other service members to eat ham sandwiches. If you're wearing the uniform you're representing your respective branch and the country as a whole and you're not allowed to endorse or encourage anything that isn't on the agenda. If these women want to encourage all of their co-workers and friends on their own time, out of uniform, be my guest...I'll be right alongside you extolling the benefits (of both breastfeeding and ham sandwiches).

[drunkpeggy]

Jun 22, 2012 12:34:43 GMT -5 Stan said:

It's Airmen. And it encourages breastfeeding in the same way that all the other 80 million PR campaigns on a base encourage things like wearing seat belts are on billboards on H's base (look at them pushing their agenda on a health issue), or recycling in uniform, or demanding that Marines wear PPE on motorcycles (with a picture of a DI knife handing). There are PR campaigns for other family issues/child issues from time to time, and this is no different. There's also a billboard for a Sonic which is all the way on the other side of base (like 30 bloody miles away) which really p words me off. I mean, really. Why post a sign for something I can't go to? We don't live by SOI you evil tempters!

But these are all things MC approved. Like you said there are a bazillion MC approved programs that have a wide range of topics. None of the branches to my knowledge have an "encourage our Airmen/Soldiers/Sailors/Marines to breastfeed" campaign. Is it silly that something as natural as breastfeeding has turned into such a blow up? Absolutely. Would I like to see a program that educates service members on the benefits of breastfeeding? Sure, why not, can't hurt. But until then there will be no "Come on girls, lactate with me!" propaganda that involves the display of an identifiable service member.

[beachy]

Oh FFS, still?

Did they try to get these photos approved by a higher command? Do we know for a fact that anyone has ever tried to do an installation wide or branch wide campaign to promote BF that was denied?

Would you be as up in arms about this situation if it were for anything else? It's not an attack on women, or on breastfeeding. These women took these pictures, apparently without the proper approval, and are now in trouble for it.

And you have no idea if those other photos were taken with command approval. You being quite certain doesn't mean anything.

[ggirl]

The photos were actually taken to promote world breastfeeding week in August. battleland.blogs.time.com/2012/06/04/breast-feeding-in-uniform/

[beachy]

Jun 22, 2012 16:21:55 GMT -5 Stan said:

Jun 22, 2012 13:56:45 GMT -5 beachy said:

Oh FFS, still?

Did they try to get these photos approved by a higher command? Do we know for a fact that anyone has ever tried to do an installation wide or branch wide campaign to promote BF that was denied?

Would you be as up in arms about this situation if it were for anything else? It's not an attack on women, or on breastfeeding. These women took these pictures, apparently without the proper approval, and are now in trouble for it.

And you have no idea if those other photos were taken with command approval. You being quite certain doesn't mean anything.

Yes still. And no, I don't need to be up in arms about anything else, because if it were a photo campaign to remind people of any other health issue, it would not be an issue. They asked their bosses. Should they have written General Schwartz? And I AM quite certain that the SMP Facebook photos are not approved by the Commandant of the Marine Corps before they're taken or posted, so .

That is your assumption, you have no way of knowing if that would be in fact true. Just like it's an assumption of whether or not the other PR ads on base were approved or not. And clearly their bosses permission doesn't mean shit now that they are in trouble, so maybe next time they should just aim for Obama to clear up any confusion.

And still, I fail to see you being quite certain that the other pics didn't have approval as being proof so your eyeroll has no effect on me.

Overall, I think that it's BS that BF has caused such a problem. And while they may have had their command approval to do their pics for the post on base, did they have approval for the pics to go on a blog? Because to me approval for pics for base which would be seen by people on base only is completely different than approval to take the pics to be put on a public blog that can be seen worldwide (and has). And if that wasn't clarified before hand exactly how and where the pics would be used, then that's on the photog and Airmen.