Flying tomorrow, ready for TSA sexual assault

[katieh]

Jun 25, 2012 16:08:49 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Jun 25, 2012 12:30:39 GMT -5 @cheshire said:

Am I the only person who doesn't feel like it's a sexual thing when they pat you down? I would guarantee the woman patting me down isn't getting her jollies any more than I am.

Nope. They always just seem tired and/or annoyed to me. More "Oh, no, not again" than "Yeah, baby! Bring it on!"

Exactly. I highly doubt the person wakes up each day and thinks, yeah, can't wait to touch some labia at work today! Most of the time I end up with someone who looks like a grandma or someone my own age who seems kind of sheepish and has that "let's just get this over with so we can get on with our lives" look.

I HATE the TSA as an agency and I'm sure there are instances of inappropriate things happening, but I do not automatically hate the agents themselves (I figure each person is innocent until proven moronic) so maybe that's why I have had better experiences than some of the previous posters. Maybe if the original poster didn't go into the experience oozing hostility towards a person who is just trying to do her job and may hate the new rules just as much (but have no other feasible job opportunity at the moment), her experience would be better.

As for belongings. . . once I get 2-3 people away from the scanner, I take my stuff back off the conveyor belt, call to the person "excuse me, but I'll be opting out today" and then stand slightly out of the way, holding all my stuff, until they call me. The last time I did that, the guy told me I could put my stuff through and I said, "no thanks. I don't want to put it through until I'm going through, so it's not unattended if there's a delay" and he was totally fine with it. The few times the agent taking me through has not automatically gone to get my stuff, I've politely said, "can you grab my stuff so it's not sitting there?' and they've been totally willing to do it.

[marynjoe]

Believe it or not, I did not go through the security line "oozing hostility." That would be a stupid move and would surely end my chances of flying that day and would also ensure an enhanced body pat down.

I also don't hate the TSA employees who work the porn scanners and groping stations. I hate who they work for and I hate the way so many people think that what they're doing is acceptable and is keeping us safe.

[Deleted]

Out of interest, and it's a genuine question, how would you replace the current system in such a way that would keep us safe?

[GilliC]

Jun 26, 2012 2:23:24 GMT -5 @cheshire said:

Out of interest, and it's a genuine question, how would you replace the current system in such a way that would keep us safe?

Profiling. Sorry, but it works. (And I don't mean racial or religious profiling. I just mean profiling in general.)

More focus on identifying threats before they reach the airport (I don't know how good the program is now, and unfortunately it will work better the less the public knows about it, so accountability will always be a problem there).

Better pay & training for agents. They should not be hiring from gas pump and pizza box ads. We should be getting trained security and threat analysis professionals.

Boarding pass scanners at all airport checkpoints, to allow agents to ensure the boarding pass presented wasn't photoshopped and actually has another name on it. ID checks at all boarding gates.

Oh, and apparently they need enough administrative corrections that when they release material to the public (like the complete screening procedures) with sensitive information redacted, they actually stop you from reading the sensitive information. You shouldn't be able to hit Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and then paste the entire contents (redacted and all) into Notepad. Seriously?! How incompetent can you be?

A lot of the TSA's money was spent on things that make a big show, because it makes people feel safer and therefore has more political benefits than subtle or behind-the-scenes improvements.

[marynjoe]

Jun 26, 2012 3:20:09 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Jun 26, 2012 2:23:24 GMT -5 @cheshire said:

Out of interest, and it's a genuine question, how would you replace the current system in such a way that would keep us safe?

Profiling. Sorry, but it works. (And I don't mean racial or religious profiling. I just mean profiling in general.)

More focus on identifying threats before they reach the airport (I don't know how good the program is now, and unfortunately it will work better the less the public knows about it, so accountability will always be a problem there).

Better pay & training for agents. They should not be hiring from gas pump and pizza box ads. We should be getting trained security and threat analysis professionals.

Boarding pass scanners at all airport checkpoints, to allow agents to ensure the boarding pass presented wasn't photoshopped and actually has another name on it. ID checks at all boarding gates.

Oh, and apparently they need enough administrative corrections that when they release material to the public (like the complete screening procedures) with sensitive information redacted, they actually stop you from reading the sensitive information. You shouldn't be able to hit Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and then paste the entire contents (redacted and all) into Notepad. Seriously?! How incompetent can you be?

A lot of the TSA's money was spent on things that make a big show, because it makes people feel safer and therefore has more political benefits than subtle or behind-the-scenes improvements.

All of this. This TSA 'show' is just that: a show. Profiling is the #1 way to stop air terrorism. Stopping attacks before they even hit the airport via the CIA and other organizations that work on international terrorism.

Israel has the safest airports in the world. Their airports are built to prevent terrorism. They profile. Their security agents are college and military trained. They keep the perimeters of the airport secure. They scan license plates entering the airport against a database. Everything in the airport is bomb proof/shatter proof, from windows to trash cans. They have less than half the security people we have, because they are so well trained. And, to repeat again, they profile. Not profiling travellers because we are afraid of hurting their feelings is the dumbest thing we do.

Look at US airports. At the metal detector or porn scanner, you must remove your shoes. Unless you're a child or a person over age 75. So, the whole shoe removing thing is now pointless. If they determine you need an enhanced pat down, you may have to remove your head coverings and other clothing, unless you object due to religious reasons. So, now this policy is pointless as well. You have to put your 3 ounce liquids in a clear zip lock one quart bag and put them in the bin. But, if you forget, they don't notice. And they don't catch it on the scanner. So, now that's pointless as well.

They say the EZ porn scanners don't save images, but the TSA admits that they do, and they use them for training. They say nobody can take pictures of what they see on the scanners, yet people have been fired for taking pictures of what they see on the screen. They say the scanners are safe, yet no long term studies have been done on the safety of the radiation. And, studies show that they aren't fool-proof. I honestly feel that in 10-15 years, we are going to see a lot of frequent fliers and TSA workers being diagnosed with cancer due to the scanners.

TSA has no quality, comprehensive, ongoing training. If they did, there wouldn't be so many problems at the airports. They have taken away needed liquid medication, groped people, removed clothing, pulled out catheters, you name it.

People get through all the time with banned items, from knives to box cutters to other objects, while toys and bottled water and face cream are taken away. Young children are terrifed as they get groped by a stranger while banned objects sail right through.

When the state of Texas tried to pass a bill banning the invasive pat downs, TSA threatened to stop all outgoing flights from the state. There are videos of people standing up for their rights with the TSA (rights as printed out on the TSA website), and the agents are unaware of the rules, harrass the passenger, and make them miss their flight. If you have the TSA information printed out and in your luggage, they won't let you get them to show them the rules. So, you have to carry the rules on your person, but they will be taken out of your pocket when you get patted down.

Instead of taking the correct steps to prevent another 9-11, we are living in fear of it, and doing these dog and pony shows isn't doing a damn thing except giving a false sense of security to some flyers, and lining the pockets of the people who sell the equipment. TSA has no credibility, and the only people who are afraid of them are the people afraid of getting scanned and/or groped.

[basilosaurus]

Jun 25, 2012 11:50:55 GMT -5 GilliC said:

PS - If you insist that your belongings stay in sight, they have to let you. Sure they get grumpypants about it, but they still have to comply. Unfortunately, this isn't one that I can toy with, because I travel with a few hundred thousand dollars' of company data with me, and if I lose that laptop, I am in serious trouble.

Unfortunately, while they're required to comply, I've had them simply refuse to. Goddamn, it pissed me off so much.

Their justification? If someone stole my laptop they'd be able to look at security videos. I ended up reporting it to the shift supervisor and to the website complaint line, but that's pretty unsatisfying when they're intentionally violating their own damn policies.

[GilliC]

Jun 26, 2012 21:38:21 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Jun 25, 2012 11:50:55 GMT -5 GilliC said:

PS - If you insist that your belongings stay in sight, they have to let you. Sure they get grumpypants about it, but they still have to comply. Unfortunately, this isn't one that I can toy with, because I travel with a few hundred thousand dollars' of company data with me, and if I lose that laptop, I am in serious trouble.

Unfortunately, while they're required to comply, I've had them simply refuse to. Goddamn, it pissed me off so much.

Their justification? If someone stole my laptop they'd be able to look at security videos. I ended up reporting it to the shift supervisor and to the website complaint line, but that's pretty unsatisfying when they're intentionally violating their own damn policies.

That sucks. More than anything I hate it when the TSA agents don't know their own policies. In those cases, I've actually demanded to speak to a supervisor when I knew the agent was wrong. You just have to be absolutely calm about it, or you risk having them go off the deep end and make your life hell.

And I would flat out refuse to let them separate me from my laptop. I could care less about the $1000 computer, but if I let $400K worth of confidential data walk away, I would be in a lot more trouble than the TSA could cause me!

[marynjoe]

The problem is that while some of us see all the problems with the TSA, there are so many people just blindly saying "But they keep us safe!" and they have no idea what's really going on and how the TSA does not work.

[mudslide]

Jun 27, 2012 18:23:20 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

The problem is that while some of us see all the problems with the TSA, there are so many people just blindly saying "But they keep us safe!" and they have no idea what's really going on and how the TSA does not work.

Mary,

I do not know a single person who thinks the TSA keeps us safe. I think there may be some people who think TSA keeps us safe, however, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people know full well that TSA is a joke--not the other way around.

[frlcb]

Jun 27, 2012 22:08:07 GMT -5 mudslide said:

Jun 27, 2012 18:23:20 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

The problem is that while some of us see all the problems with the TSA, there are so many people just blindly saying "But they keep us safe!" and they have no idea what's really going on and how the TSA does not work.

Mary,

I do not know a single person who thinks the TSA keeps us safe. I think there may be some people who think TSA keeps us safe, however, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people know full well that TSA is a joke--not the other way around.

I agree with this. I think people have just become ho-hum about it because if you have to travel what other choice do you have? We have to travel overseas to see family, and dh for work. He has no choice. My parents travel every single week and have no choice - and prefer the body scanner to the pat down, as they have multiple artificial body parts that means if they go through the regular metal detector they always get the pat down.

I just can't get all up in arms over the scanner. If they keep pictures of me after and use it for training I just don't care. They don't know it is me, I will never see them again, and it just isn't something I can get all up in arms over. I have also had the pat down multiple times, and while I refused my 13 month old getting it in May (because IMO it is not appropriate for children) and while it is more personal than it used to be, I have never had someone grab my crotch.

[marynjoe]

Jun 27, 2012 22:08:07 GMT -5 mudslide said:

Mary,

I do not know a single person who thinks the TSA keeps us safe. I think there may be some people who think TSA keeps us safe, however, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people know full well that TSA is a joke--not the other way around.

I'm glad to hear you say that. Sadly, my experience is the other way around. Plus, look online, read message boards, read articles. It's shocking how many people think the TSA is highly effective and they support the TSA because "they keep us safe!"

The "ho hum" attitude is also a big problem. The more people just let it go, the worse it will become. What will it take for those people who know it's a joke to stand up and say they're sick of wasting tax dollars and time? Suddenly we're willing to sit back and deal with something we don't agree with because we're too tired to fight? That's a shame.

[PinkSquirrel]

I recently went away and opted out of the scanner. Both heading out and coming home the pat down was no biggie and the TSA agents were really nice. I was actually pretty shocked after all the horror stories I've heard

[marynjoe]

Jun 28, 2012 13:55:40 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

I recently went away and opted out of the scanner. Both heading out and coming home the pat down was no biggie and the TSA agents were really nice. I was actually pretty shocked after all the horror stories I've heard

Not fair!! Hands in the pants and labia touching for all!

[emilyj]

Jun 28, 2012 22:40:13 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

Jun 28, 2012 13:55:40 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

I recently went away and opted out of the scanner. Both heading out and coming home the pat down was no biggie and the TSA agents were really nice. I was actually pretty shocked after all the horror stories I've heard

Not fair!! Hands in the pants and labia touching for all!

Snicker.

The couple times I have had to opt out (because I flat out refuse to go through the scanner) the pat down was NBD at all. Honestly, the worst experience I've had was in Vegas when a TSA guy tried to guilt me in to going through the scanner.

[Deleted]

If you support profiling but say it doesn't have to be based on race or religion, what exactly do you base it on? And why isn't profiling a violation of constitutional rights?

[bronxgirl]

Jun 25, 2012 12:30:39 GMT -5 @cheshire said:

Am I the only person who doesn't feel like it's a sexual thing when they pat you down? I would guarantee the woman patting me down isn't getting her jollies any more than I am.

While I agree that most TSA agents are certainkly not getting any sexual thrill from their jobs, what does that have to do with anything? It's okay to have your constitutional rights violated as long as there is no sexual basis?

[emilyj]

Jun 30, 2012 17:19:02 GMT -5 @libgrl said:

If you support profiling but say it doesn't have to be based on race or religion, what exactly do you base it on? And why isn't profiling a violation of constitutional rights?

I 100% support profiling.

True profiling is an intricate process that involves psychology and communication. When a person is being profiled, they are engaged in a conversation (q&a), and the things that are being analyzed are their answers, their body language, their speech patterns, their non-verbals, and how all of those things are interacting together. Do their non-verbals match up to their answers? Are they giving you straightforward answers but sweating profusely and not looking you in the eye?

None of those things being analyzed have anything to do with their race, their religion, their age, or their gender.

When I flew through Amsterdam last year I was profiled - they did it to every single passenger before they let us into the gate area to board. I had zero problem with it.

The argument against what the TSA is currently doing is that it is a violation of your 4th amendment rights - guarding against unreasonable search and seizure. Profiling, or a Q&A, is logically not defined as either a search or a seizure.

Again - profiling, when done correctly, does not take in to account any demographic features.

[marynjoe]

Emily, you are awesome.

[bronxgirl]

Jul 1, 2012 1:54:58 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

Emily, you are awesome.

I second that.

[emilyj]

Aww, thanks Mary and Bronx. I truly wish more people understood what profiling really is. I actually think it's fascinating, but that might be the communication geek in me coming out.

[bronxgirl]

Jul 1, 2012 13:35:33 GMT -5 emilyj said:

Aww, thanks Mary and Bronx. I truly wish more people understood what profiling really is. I actually think it's fascinating, but that might be the communication geek in me coming out.

Whenever I've travelled to Israel I felt much safer and much more confident in the screening process. the whole approach to airline safety is radically different.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2012 22:27:36 GMT -5 emilyj said:

Jun 30, 2012 17:19:02 GMT -5 @libgrl said:

If you support profiling but say it doesn't have to be based on race or religion, what exactly do you base it on? And why isn't profiling a violation of constitutional rights?

I 100% support profiling.

True profiling is an intricate process that involves psychology and communication. When a person is being profiled, they are engaged in a conversation (q&a), and the things that are being analyzed are their answers, their body language, their speech patterns, their non-verbals, and how all of those things are interacting together. Do their non-verbals match up to their answers? Are they giving you straightforward answers but sweating profusely and not looking you in the eye?

None of those things being analyzed have anything to do with their race, their religion, their age, or their gender.

When I flew through Amsterdam last year I was profiled - they did it to every single passenger before they let us into the gate area to board. I had zero problem with it.

The argument against what the TSA is currently doing is that it is a violation of your 4th amendment rights - guarding against unreasonable search and seizure. Profiling, or a Q&A, is logically not defined as either a search or a seizure.

Again - profiling, when done correctly, does not take in to account any demographic features.

Sounds like a lengthy process to be done correctly. How exactly would it ork on, say, the day before Thnksgiving?
And seriously, sweating and looking someone in the eye? I knew to control those things when I was 14 and lying to my parents. I know hat profiling is and I know it takes a lot of time to be done correctly. It also is completely subjective the person doing the profiling being properly trained, which can take years. If we can't trust TSA to train proper searches, we certainly can't trust them to do this.

[emilyj]

Jul 1, 2012 17:01:02 GMT -5 @libgrl said:

Sounds like a lengthy process to be done correctly. How exactly would it ork on, say, the day before Thnksgiving?
And seriously, sweating and looking someone in the eye? I knew to control those things when I was 14 and lying to my parents. I know hat profiling is and I know it takes a lot of time to be done correctly. It also is completely subjective the person doing the profiling being properly trained, which can take years. If we can't trust TSA to train proper searches, we certainly can't trust them to do this.

I'm asking this in a completely non-snarky way - if you know what profiling is, then why did you ask what it was based on?

Done correctly, TSA would NOT be doing profiling. In no way, shape or form should the people employed by TSA be trusted with profiling. Please do not think for one minute I am saying TSA should be responsible for doing this, because they absolutely should NOT.

Sweating and looking someone in the eye are two examples of many things profilers look at, not the only things. It's a comprehensive package, per se, not one or two things.

As for a lengthy process, I can only speak to my personal experience. In Amsterdam, three people got an entire 777 plane through the profiling process and to the gate in less than half an hour. I've waited longer than that to go through security in some airports in the US. How would it work the day before Thanksgiving? The same way it would work any other day of the year. The impetus may have to be on you, the traveler to allow a little extra time in that case.

There are additional measures that need to be taken in addition to profiling before a person ever gets to the airport. See Mary's post above.

You seem to be anti-profiling. Why?

[GilliC]

Jul 1, 2012 17:01:02 GMT -5 @libgrl said:

It also is completely subjective the person doing the profiling being properly trained, which can take years. If we can't trust TSA to train proper searches, we certainly can't trust them to do this.

And therein lies one of the roots of the problem. This takes years and costs money, so therefore the TSA is incapable of it.

...Really? Why do we accept this? Shouldn't it be possible to create an agency that can actually accomplish this kind of goal and that hires and trains agents to be effective?

Just because $11/hr rent-an-agents and incompetent administration are the status quo, why do we simply assume this is the way it has to be? Could the agency not be gutted and redesigned to actually do the job they're tasked with? Unless of course the job they're tasked with is simply security theater with an extraordinary budget, which is very likely.

However, I don't think that we should simply throw up our hands and say that effective security is impossible given the current ineptitude of the agency. That won't help anything other than the continued waste of time and tax money. We should instead be crying out that the agency itself needs to be redesigned.

[marynjoe]

How do we do it? Do away with the TSA. It should be a very serious job staffed by highly trained people who come from security/profiling backgrounds such as the military, FBI, CIA, police, etc. And train them more. And then realize that airport security and terrorism prevention starts way before a person buys a plane ticket. Groping and scanning us at the gate is too late.