Preschool Question

[usuallylurking]

DS1 is 3.  He started preschool just this last week, and he loves it.  No problems at drop off, he excitedly tells me "bye, Mom!" and waves as I leave with DS2.  He goes twice a week - Tuesday and Thursday - from 9:00 to 11:30.  There are 16 kids and 2 teachers, the lead teacher and the assistant.  This was explicitly described as a 3-year-old's first preschool experience; there are no 4 year old's in this class.

On Thursday, just over an hour into the preschool day, the preschool director called me.  Of course I thought my kid did something horrible.  No, he threw a fit when somebody came to play with the blocks he was playing with.  So, yes, he has trouble sharing.  It's something we're obviously working on, but I also assumed that this is something he would continue to work on and learn in preschool.  I also told her that he's under the impression that he knows what sharing is and that by his definition, he is sharing.  But, his definition of sharing is not exactly what sharing is, so we are working on that as well.  Just the whole concept in general.  I explained that to the director and also told her that for him he does best to have someone explain it to him and then he'll go back to doing his thing.  Sometimes he needs to be turned away from what is happening (ie turn his back to the kid who is playing with "his" blocks) while he's being talked to, because otherwise he can't focus on what the teacher is saying, because he's too worked up/obsessed with that the other kid is still playing with "his" blocks.  I told her he has been in daycare before and never had any problems, so this isn't his first time being in a social setting with other kids.  She said ok and that was that.

She called again about 40 minutes later - 30 minutes before preschool is over.  It was DS on the phone, not her.
"Hi Mom"
"Hey Ben! How are you?" (here I am thinking he's suddenly upset that I'm gone and needed to talk to me or something)
"I'm good. I'm at preschool."
"Yeah, are you having fun?" and then I hear her talking to DS in the background.
"Mom I have to tell you something."
"Ok, what's up buddy?"
"Mom you need to come and get me."
"Oh?  What's wrong?"  I hear her talking to him again in the background.
"Cause I'm throwin too many fits."
"Oh...  Ok, Baby Luke and I will be there soon."
"Ok bye Mom"

Then she gets on the phone and says I need to come and get him.  That he's throwing too many fits and the teachers can't handle it and maybe it's just better to call it a day for today.  And that he's in the office with her, no longer in the classroom, so I can just go there to pick him up.

I drive there to get him, and at that point it's only 15 minutes until pick up time anyways.  I asked him what was wrong and he said "well I was throwin fits" and I said "yeah you aren't supposed to throw fits, you're supposed to use your nice words."  She then goes on to tell me that he's thrown a fit anytime any other kid comes in the office.  He'll tell them "No!  You can't come in here!"  I'm not sure what that is about, but when I asked her if she explained to him that other kids can come in she said "well I told him he's not supposed to yell at other kids or teachers and that we don't throw fits."  Right.  Which he knows, and you can tell him.  But he also needs to understand that it's ok for the other people to come in, and why they might be coming in.  Just like for sharing - you can tell him that we need to share, but he needs it explained, not just to be scolded and expect him to accept the scolding and move on.  Anyways, come to find out, her office is where the prizes are.  So the other kids, from his class, are coming in to get a prize for the day while he just has to sit there and watch them.  THAT is why he's upset.  Everybody else gets a prize and she just keeps telling him he doesn't get a prize because he was bad today.  I mean, I definitely don't expect him to get a prize or anything, but stop telling him that he was bad.  Start telling him that they get a prize because they didn't throw any fits, or because they were good at sharing, or whatever, and he can try again on Tuesday.

I'm certainly not saying my kid is perfect and didn't deserve to have his behavior corrected - but isn't this normal, 3-year-old, second day of preschool stuff?  Shouldn't they be able to handle him throwing a fit about sharing?  I mean, that's part of why he's going - to learn social skills.  Not just letters, numbers, colors, etc.  He already knows all of that stuff.  I want him to learn to share and get along with a whole group of kids, follow directions from someone other than H and I, how to stand in a line, how to sit still at circle time and listen to a story, follow a routine, etc.  That's why he's in preschool; so he can learn these things now and not be a total social failure in Kindergarten.

Am I wrong in my expectations for them to be able to handle a fit about sharing and that they need to be teaching him those things?

[eb777888]

Uhhhhh. I'd find a new preschool. There is so much weirdness coming from the people there. WTH?

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:06:01 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

Uhhhhh. I'd find a new preschool. There is so much weirdness coming from the people there. WTH?

This is what I hear from everyone I tell the story to.  I'm pissed at the director, but wanted to lay this all out as unbiased as possible to see if it was just me or not.  I'm really mad that they "shamed" my kid, a 3-year-old who is SO excited about school, by having him call me to tell me I had to come early to get him.  I was like "He didn't hit?  He didn't throw?  Kick?  Biting?  Rip up someone else's art work?  Just having a rough day?  Why are you calling me?"  I don't know if it's because his regular teacher wasn't there and the fill-in wasn't able to handle 16 3-year-olds or what.  But no, I'm not very happy.

[lauralala]

They put a 3-year-old on the phone to tell you he was "bad"? My kid would be pulled out of there so fast heads would be spinning.

[gretchenindisguise]

Yeah, I'd have issues with that as well. Anyone in early childhood education should know that it works better to tell a kid what they/others CAN do, not what they can't do. If you don't give them an alternative, they get stuck on what they can't do.

I'd go in and talk with them about what discipline works for kid and what their theories are on it. It was probably the only question I asked when I was interviewing daycare and preschool for L.

[eb777888]

That's the biggest WTF, that they had him call you himself.

Look, David is FAR from an angel. In his 2 full year in preschool, he's bitten three kids, had several time outs and I've made a couple calls to the teacher. Never once have they called me at home about anything, it's all discussed at pick up and I was told "don't worry, this is normal! We work through it, it's what preschool is about!" I've always felt reassured by David's teachers.

I just wouldn't be comfortable with the way they're handling it. So odd.

[Deleted]

I'd really have trouble slapping them for having my 3-year-old call to tell me he was in trouble. RAGE. That is awful.

Also, how do they not know how to handle fits at that age? Jeez.

[Redpoppy]

Time for a new preschool. Ours would not be punishing for that especially on be first week. Also they do not single kids out in front of other for punishment.

[lauralala]

Sept 7, 2013 15:12:50 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Did she actually call him "bad"? Because that would really upset me.

In terms of whether it's normal three year old stuff, it sounds like he threw multiple fits not just one, right? Depending on what "throwing a fit" means, I could see that being so distracting to the other kids and disruptive to the class that it warranted him leaving early.

Having trouble sharing is definitely age appropriate, but I'd be concerned if he were unable to take teacher direction and/or continued to pitch a fit every time he needed to share.

I think bad was my word, just to sum up how they were making him feel.  I do agree that kids need to take direction, but on the 2nd day this seems pretty harsh.

[eb777888]

Do you usually have issues at home with your child throwing super intense temper tantrums?

Sharing was super hard for us and David was speech delayed so he did all the biting when he was 3 and it was always kids taking his toys away. He had a rough time with sharing but that's one of the many reasons why I put him in preschool, lol. So we can work through those issues.

If this were my kid, I'd be pretty pissed. I know this is one side of the story here, but he's 3. This seems like normal behavior, especially since it's first year of school.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:12:50 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Did she actually call him "bad"? Because that would really upset me.

In terms of whether it's normal three year old stuff, it sounds like he threw multiple fits not just one, right? Depending on what "throwing a fit" means, I could see that being so distracting to the other kids and disruptive to the class that it warranted him leaving early.

Having trouble sharing is definitely age appropriate, but I'd be concerned if he were unable to take teacher direction and/or continued to pitch a fit every time he needed to share.

Yes, she did - that bothered me, too.  And when I was talking to him in the office I kept saying "well you don't get a prize because you had a rough day" and it was like she just kept waiting for me to drop the "bad" word as well.

From what I can gather, he threw two fits.  One for sharing blocks right at the beginning of the day, and another towards the end of the day, on the playground, when he was playing with some kids in the playhouse but they kept opening the door and letting other kids in (so, generally speaking, sharing/kids not doing it his way).  She really didn't have specific examples though.  I *really* had to push to get anything other than a generalized statement of what he did wrong - throwing fits.  I'm going to be sure to talk to the actual teacher that was in the classroom on Tuesday so I can hear from her what happened.  Otherwise he painted and shared his paints, colored with markers and shared them, let another kid stand on his red footprint during circle time without yelling or hitting or throwing a fit, etc.

I definitely see what you're saying, and I asked myself, the director, and my kid the same things.  That's why I'm going to talk to the teacher and see if what she says is more specific.  I mean, throwing a fit at home means he raises his voice and uses words like "no" or is just defiant in sharing, playing nice with his brother, crying because he didn't get his way, etc.  So if he was genuinely doing that all day long, ok, that is definitely disruptive to the other class.  But if he did that twice?  Due to normal things that are tough for a 3-year-old?  Then I have trouble understanding why they couldn't calm him down and help him through it.  And yes, I need to hear what his "throwing a fit" consisted of at daycare as opposed to how it usually goes at home.

[macmars45]

Sept 7, 2013 15:12:22 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

That's the biggest WTF, that they had him call you himself.

Look, David is FAR from an angel. In his 2 full year in preschool, he's bitten three kids, had several time outs and I've made a couple calls to the teacher. Never once had they called me at home about anything, it's all discussed at drop off and I was told "don't worry, this is normal! We work through it, it's what preschool is about!" I've always felt reassured by David's teachers.

I just wouldn't be comfortable with the way they're handling it. So odd.

I've worked in preschool for 7+ years. The bolded is normal response from any normal preschool teacher. If we sent kids home for 'throwin fits' we'd have very few kids left within the first hour.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:20:49 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

Do you usually have issues at home with your child throwing super intense temper tantrums?

Sharing was super hard for us and David was speech delayed so he did all the biting when he was 3 and it was always kids taking his toys away. He had a rough time with sharing but that's one of the many reasons why I put him in preschool, lol. So we can work through those issues.

If this were my kid, I'd be pretty pissed. I know this is one side of the story here, but he's 3. This seems like normal behavior, especially since it's first year of school.

I don't think they're super intense, no.  I mean, he'll get there if you let him, but that's if you ignore it and allow it to "run it's course."  I don't do that - I cut it off as soon as it starts and tell him if he wants to keep at it he can go to his room.  I don't think he's ever made that choice, lol.

He does have to be calmed down before he can truly hear and comprehend what somebody is telling him, though.  You can't just try to shout over him and expect him to hear you and stop throwing a fit and do what you were saying.  So throwing a fit at home, he'll start with upset words/tears, he'll raise his voice and start yelling what he wants to do or what is wrong.  I have to get him to stop yelling and calm down before I can explain why he has to share or why he can't have something (or whatever).  Then he accepts it and moves on - sometimes with a few more objections or "why"'s but the fit is basically over.  I think this is all normal?

The biggest fit I've ever seen him throw is when something, like his trains, won't do what he's trying to make them do.  Usually it's because the train is too long, or he's truly being unrealistic (ie the train won't stay climbing up the wall if he lets go).  But the same tactic applies - calm him down, explain why that won't work, tell him all he has to do is ask for help using nice words - the end.

In daycare they told me he had trouble sharing, but she also said "it's his first week and they all do this.  Don't worry, it's normal, he'll get it" and he did and she never said anything about it again.

[eb777888]

Sept 7, 2013 15:23:04 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:12:22 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

That's the biggest WTF, that they had him call you himself.

Look, David is FAR from an angel. In his 2 full year in preschool, he's bitten three kids, had several time outs and I've made a couple calls to the teacher. Never once had they called me at home about anything, it's all discussed at drop off and I was told "don't worry, this is normal! We work through it, it's what preschool is about!" I've always felt reassured by David's teachers.

I just wouldn't be comfortable with the way they're handling it. So odd.

I've worked in preschool for 7+ years. The bolded is normal response from any normal preschool teacher. If we sent kids home for 'throwin fits' we'd have very few kids left within the first hour.

This is why I think maybe something more is going on. Because... they're not calling ALL the parents every day.

Our school has an open door policy where we can walk in his class at any time and observe if we want. I think it's a good idea to talk to the teacher first, that's where I'd start as well.

Sorry your son is having a rough start to school. I hope you figure it out or are able to find him a new school. We've had our share of rough times with David but preschool has helped him so much and he is thriving there.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:23:04 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:12:22 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

That's the biggest WTF, that they had him call you himself.

Look, David is FAR from an angel. In his 2 full year in preschool, he's bitten three kids, had several time outs and I've made a couple calls to the teacher. Never once had they called me at home about anything, it's all discussed at drop off and I was told "don't worry, this is normal! We work through it, it's what preschool is about!" I've always felt reassured by David's teachers.

I just wouldn't be comfortable with the way they're handling it. So odd.

I've worked in preschool for 7+ years. The bolded is normal response from any normal preschool teacher. If we sent kids home for 'throwin fits' we'd have very few kids left within the first hour.

Lol.  I'm still in touch with my daycare/preschool teacher from when I was a kid.  She's been doing this for 25+ years and said the exact same thing.

I think I need to go preschool shopping.  Again.

[eb777888]

Sept 7, 2013 15:34:10 GMT -5 usuallylurking said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:20:49 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

Do you usually have issues at home with your child throwing super intense temper tantrums?

Sharing was super hard for us and David was speech delayed so he did all the biting when he was 3 and it was always kids taking his toys away. He had a rough time with sharing but that's one of the many reasons why I put him in preschool, lol. So we can work through those issues.

If this were my kid, I'd be pretty pissed. I know this is one side of the story here, but he's 3. This seems like normal behavior, especially since it's first year of school.

I don't think they're super intense, no.  I mean, he'll get there if you let him, but that's if you ignore it and allow it to "run it's course."  I don't do that - I cut it off as soon as it starts and tell him if he wants to keep at it he can go to his room.  I don't think he's ever made that choice, lol.

He does have to be calmed down before he can truly hear and comprehend what somebody is telling him, though.  You can't just try to shout over him and expect him to hear you and stop throwing a fit and do what you were saying.  So throwing a fit at home, he'll start with upset words/tears, he'll raise his voice and start yelling what he wants to do or what is wrong.  I have to get him to stop yelling and calm down before I can explain why he has to share or why he can't have something (or whatever).  Then he accepts it and moves on - sometimes with a few more objections or "why"'s but the fit is basically over.  I think this is all normal?

The biggest fit I've ever seen him throw is when something, like his trains, won't do what he's trying to make them do.  Usually it's because the train is too long, or he's truly being unrealistic (ie the train won't stay climbing up the wall if he lets go).  But the same tactic applies - calm him down, explain why that won't work, tell him all he has to do is ask for help using nice words - the end.

In daycare they told me he had trouble sharing, but she also said "it's his first week and they all do this.  Don't worry, it's normal, he'll get it" and he did and she never said anything about it again.

Yeah, this sound exactly how David was at 3. /shrugs

[livinitup]

That seems like a really poor response by the director. Putting the child on the phone is off the chart weird. The lack of detail and the overall lack of appropriate re-direction to the behavior is not good either. I'm even WTF about the "prizes" in the director's office for good behavior.

I wouldn't have high hopes that my child wouldn't be labeled a "trouble maker" and targeted for a while. Or that he'd be welcome for long.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:35:03 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:23:04 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

I've worked in preschool for 7+ years. The bolded is normal response from any normal preschool teacher. If we sent kids home for 'throwin fits' we'd have very few kids left within the first hour.

This is why I think maybe something more is going on. Because... they're not calling ALL the parents every day.

Our school has an open door policy where we can walk in his class at any time and observe if we want. I think it's a good idea to talk to the teacher first, that's where I'd start as well.

Sorry your son is having a rough start to school. I hope you figure it out or are able to find him a new school. We've had our share of rough times with David but preschool has helped him so much and he is thriving there.

We aren't "allowed" in the classroom to volunteer if we haven't gone through a background check and had it submitted to the school.  I'm thinking this may be different though - I just want to observe for a bit.  I'm going to see if my sister will watch Lucas while I go Tuesday morning so that I can stick around for a bit and see how it goes.  If it's truly that they aren't/don't want to teach him how to get through whatever it is without throwing a fit, then we're gone.  But if it's because he's throwing some huge fit of epic proportions that even I have never seen before, well then I guess I need to see that and figure out what that's all about.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:39:47 GMT -5 livinitup said:

That seems like a really poor response by the director. Putting the child on the phone is off the chart weird. The lack of detail and the overall lack of appropriate re-direction to the behavior is not good either. I'm even WTF about the "prizes" in the director's office for good behavior.

I wouldn't have high hopes that my child wouldn't be labeled a "trouble maker" and targeted for a while. Or that he'd be welcome for long.

This is what I'm afraid of overall, too.  And yeah, I didn't think kids really needed daily prizes for just having a normal day (I get it if there are specific behaviors being worked on).  My kid is just happy to take his painting home.

And that's what I thought about the fit throwing - he has never not responded to re-direction after a fit.  And in a classroom full of all new toys and art supplies and things to do, I can't imagine that he'd become so fixated on the blocks that "let's take a break from the blocks and go play with the play dough" wouldn't work.  If the teachers truly don't have the time to do that, then we're definitely in the wrong place.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:37:47 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:34:10 GMT -5 usuallylurking said:

I don't think they're super intense, no.  I mean, he'll get there if you let him, but that's if you ignore it and allow it to "run it's course."  I don't do that - I cut it off as soon as it starts and tell him if he wants to keep at it he can go to his room.  I don't think he's ever made that choice, lol.

He does have to be calmed down before he can truly hear and comprehend what somebody is telling him, though.  You can't just try to shout over him and expect him to hear you and stop throwing a fit and do what you were saying.  So throwing a fit at home, he'll start with upset words/tears, he'll raise his voice and start yelling what he wants to do or what is wrong.  I have to get him to stop yelling and calm down before I can explain why he has to share or why he can't have something (or whatever).  Then he accepts it and moves on - sometimes with a few more objections or "why"'s but the fit is basically over.  I think this is all normal?

The biggest fit I've ever seen him throw is when something, like his trains, won't do what he's trying to make them do.  Usually it's because the train is too long, or he's truly being unrealistic (ie the train won't stay climbing up the wall if he lets go).  But the same tactic applies - calm him down, explain why that won't work, tell him all he has to do is ask for help using nice words - the end.

In daycare they told me he had trouble sharing, but she also said "it's his first week and they all do this.  Don't worry, it's normal, he'll get it" and he did and she never said anything about it again.

Yeah, this sound exactly how David was at 3. /shrugs

This is comforting to hear, thank you.  At first she made me question Benjamin and his behaviors and if he was normal or not.  But the more thinking about it I do, and the more I talk to other people about it, the more I'm thinking it's a problem with them, not with Ben.

[speckledfrog]

I'm a former preschool teacher and administrator and I'd pull him out so fast there would be a smoke trail behind me. I'd also raise holy hell to get this month of tuition back. I'd also be tempted to call the licensing board on them as well because it sounds like they don't understand how to handle discipline in the classroom.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2013 15:10:43 GMT -5 lauralala said:

They put a 3-year-old on the phone to tell you he was "bad"? My kid would be pulled out of there so fast heads would be spinning.

This.

Wtf?

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:10:43 GMT -5 lauralala said:

They put a 3-year-old on the phone to tell you he was "bad"? My kid would be pulled out of there so fast heads would be spinning.

Yeah.  They didn't make him say bad, but she definitely told him that in my presence, so I can only imagine that she said it to him while I wasn't there, too.  She also seemed to be waiting for me to tell him the same thing, but I wouldn't, and never would.  He can do things that are bad, but he is never bad.  And I'm not a parent who "never says no" or anything like that.  But calling my kid bad is definitely not something that I would do.

Sept 7, 2013 15:11:38 GMT -5 @letshike said:

Uh, is having a 3 year old call and tell you he needs picked up something that happens in preschool? That sounds fucked up to me.

Yeah that's where I was at, too.  Thankfully he doesn't seem to know that the intention was to "shame" him, or whatever.  He was actually upset that I was there before it was time to go, though.  He knew it was still time for preschool.

[auntie]

Poor kid.

WTF? as all the others said. A especially dislike the consequence of him calling you to get him as if he's been arrested and your his one phone call. That seriously irks me.

DS never threw "fits", so I can't speak to that part of this. But it sounds as though he wasn't in any way aggressive, so I don't see why redirection wouldn't work. DS did sometimes have trouble with the logic of sharing and taking turns as being interchangable concepts. In his mind, they are not.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 15:46:18 GMT -5 speckledfrog said:

I'm a former preschool teacher and administrator and I'd pull him out so fast there would be a smoke trail behind me. I'd also raise holy hell to get this month of tuition back. I'd also be tempted to call the licensing board on them as well because it sounds like they don't understand how to handle discipline in the classroom.

Omg you guys are making me feel so much better and that my kid isn't a total failure.  I mean, I didn't think he was, but this is also my first experience with preschool as a parent so I was trying to leave them some shred of credibility.

Do I even bring him back on Tuesday to get a full account from the teacher?  Or do I just keep him home, raise hell to get tuition back, and look for a new place for him?

[eb777888]

Sept 7, 2013 15:44:59 GMT -5 usuallylurking said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:37:47 GMT -5 eb777888 said:

Yeah, this sound exactly how David was at 3. /shrugs

This is comforting to hear, thank you.  At first she made me question Benjamin and his behaviors and if he was normal or not.  But the more thinking about it I do, and the more I talk to other people about it, the more I'm thinking it's a problem with them, not with Ben.

Yeah, I feel bad that they made him call you like that. It's like they're shaming him for being three. Sounds like you've got a handle on it, though :-)

[cinnamoncox]

Sept 7, 2013 15:10:43 GMT -5 lauralala said:

They put a 3-year-old on the phone to tell you he was "bad"? My kid would be pulled out of there so fast heads would be spinning.

This times a thousand
I'm sorry this happened and I hope you can find better arrangements for him soon
These are the formative school years to set him up for future grades and if these people can't handle a three year old taking fits, which three year olds are known to do, then they have no business being in charge of kids.
I'm sorry

[speckledfrog]

Sept 7, 2013 15:51:49 GMT -5 usuallylurking said:

Sept 7, 2013 15:46:18 GMT -5 speckledfrog said:

I'm a former preschool teacher and administrator and I'd pull him out so fast there would be a smoke trail behind me. I'd also raise holy hell to get this month of tuition back. I'd also be tempted to call the licensing board on them as well because it sounds like they don't understand how to handle discipline in the classroom.

Omg you guys are making me feel so much better and that my kid isn't a total failure.  I mean, I didn't think he was, but this is also my first experience with preschool as a parent so I was trying to leave them some shred of credibility.

Do I even bring him back on Tuesday to get a full account from the teacher?  Or do I just keep him home, raise hell to get tuition back, and look for a new place for him?

I would call on Monday and ask the teacher to call you back so you can get more details.  What was he doing, what did they do, how did he respond, what time did he go to the office, did he go more than once, etc.

[Deleted]

That is strange. A preschool should be able to handle a tantrumy kid.

[usuallylurking]

Sept 7, 2013 16:00:22 GMT -5 @stellasmom said:

That is strange. A preschool should be able to handle a tantrumy kid.

This is my generalized perception of the whole thing, too. Thanks for being concise for me - it's not always something I'm good at.