I guess "well-qualified" is supposed to imply that the candidate toes the Democratic Party platform, but IMO it's too vague to really expect Democratic voters to assume that the Mormon candidate in question is some exceptional case who actually would advance progressive issues, which for those of us who are progressive Democrats and don't just vote a party ticket because of the letter after a candidate's name would be a sticking point.
Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to say this.
KA, I do think people can govern without injecting their belief, but I also think the mormon church has a stranglehold on its members. I can't imagine a pro-choice pro-gay candidate wouldn't receive some "counseling" at minimum. Honestly, I'd half expect them to be excommunicated, except that would be bad PR, so it would probably be a quieter pressure.
Yes, there are lapsed mormons who probably don't get harassed for it, but they're not public figures. Remember that whole John Kerry and denial of communion thing? From ex-mormon stories (and I've read a shitton), there's even stronger pressure to remain in the faith b/c your family could very likely shun you.
Everyone here is saying "staunch" this or that in their explanation, but the question didn't specify that. It was a blanket "If your party nominated a well qualified candidate who happened to be Mormon would you vote for that person?"
From ex-mormon stories (and I've read a shitton), there's even stronger pressure to remain in the faith b/c your family could very likely shun you.
But isn't this an argument for why some Mormons may agree with you politically? If they are staying in their faith for familial duty rather than because they agree with every conservative tenet?
It seems that it would be hard to communicate those differences in the campaign and still maintain those ties.
The Mormon faith requires strong allegiance to a doctrine that is very conservative. As a liberal, it would take a very unique Mormon for me to vote for a Mormon candidate. I don't think there is anything controversial about this but will be skewered as such because of who is currently running for president.
Would your average R vote for the guy from the Church of Hippy-Dippy?
Harry Reid is a Mormon, and he does alright. I'd vote for him if he were the Democratic presidential candidate. He's shown that the typical Mormon platform isn't how he actually votes. He's pro-choice in that he believes abortion is a moral wrong, but doesn't think it's the law's place. It's not my favorite position, but as long as he votes for more rights for women's health, I'm still on board.
Harry Reid is a good example but I'm pretty sure he is an outlier in the Mormon faith.
Maybe this is flamable... but I can't take a mormon candidate seriously? I think Pamela and I agree on this. I really question the thinking capabilities of someone who follows a religion that is less than 200 years old yet doesn't have any substantiated historical record.
I honestly can't help but wonder if this is because most Democrats tend to believe Mormons are conservative. I have no doubt there's some bigoted idiocy coming through, but I think there's probably some "Oh please. No Mormon could ever represent my liberal political views" thoughts happening as well.
Maybe this is flamable... but I can't take a mormon candidate seriously? I think Pamela and I agree on this. I really question the thinking capabilities of someone who follows a religion that is less than 200 years old yet doesn't have any substantiated historical record.
Depending upon your POV, every religion can land somewhere on the "lacks critical thinking skills" spectrum.
Post by penguingrrl on Jun 21, 2012 16:23:15 GMT -5
That's sad. I hate that a candidate's religious views are part of the discussion in any way, shape or form. IMO religion is (or should be) a private thing to a person, not something to wear on your sleeve. Those who are really outspoken about their religion seem disingenuous to me. So if I liked a candidate and they aligned with my views and I later found out they were mormon that would have absolutely no impact on me at the polls. Come to think of it, I have no clue what religion the Obamas are or aren't.
That's sad. I hate that a candidate's religious views are part of the discussion in any way, shape or form. IMO religion is (or should be) a private thing to a person, not something to wear on your sleeve. Those who are really outspoken about their religion seem disingenuous to me. So if I liked a candidate and they aligned with my views and I later found out they were mormon that would have absolutely no impact on me at the polls. Come to think of it, I have no clue what religion the Obamas are or aren't.
Religious views enter the political discussion when particular religions get involved in politics.
Post by basilosaurus on Jun 21, 2012 16:28:53 GMT -5
penguin, of course you know the Obama's religion. It's Christian, just like every president, unless you believe he's Muslim? This country won't elect a non-Christian (unless you think Mormon isn't Christian).
I think objectively mormon beliefs aren't stranger that any other religions. They all are pretty objectively crazy. Dead guy alive after 3 days? Virgins giving birth? How is moses any crazier than seer stones? Moroni vs Gabriel? Israelite Indians vs tower of babel? So that wouldn't particularly bother me.
penguin, of course you know the Obama's religion. It's Christian, just like every president, unless you believe he's Muslim? This country won't elect a non-Christian (unless you think Mormon isn't Christian).
I think objectively mormon beliefs aren't stranger that any other religions. They all are pretty objectively crazy. Dead guy alive after 3 days? Virgins giving birth? How is moses any crazier than seer stones? Moroni vs Gabriel? Israelite Indians vs tower of babel? So that wouldn't particularly bother me.
The thing is, it's pretty easy to debunk Mormonism because it's so recent. But yet they still believe this stuff actually happened. Not like a parable but reality. That's weird. But I agree. All religions are weird.
penguin, of course you know the Obama's religion. It's Christian, just like every president, unless you believe he's Muslim? This country won't elect a non-Christian (unless you think Mormon isn't Christian).
I think objectively mormon beliefs aren't stranger that any other religions. They all are pretty objectively crazy. Dead guy alive after 3 days? Virgins giving birth? How is moses any crazier than seer stones? Moroni vs Gabriel? Israelite Indians vs tower of babel? So that wouldn't particularly bother me.
By that I more meant that I wasn't sure if they actively participated in a religion and, if so, I have no idea what denomination of Christian. Sadly I realize that being Muslim or Jewish would have been obvious during the election, so he must have been Christian to not "rock the boat." My point is I have never heard his religion discussed.
Seriously penguin??!! Obama's religion is discussed All. The. Time.
I'll admit, I'm up on many things but have somehow missed that. Or maybe I tune out religion since I'm not a believer. I'll admit it's highly possible.
Seriously penguin??!! Obama's religion is discussed All. The. Time.
I'll admit, I'm up on many things but have somehow missed that. Or maybe I tune out religion since I'm not a believer. I'll admit it's highly possible.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
My point is I have never heard his religion discussed.
Then you're rather ignorant of the political culture in this country.
Comments of Obama's former pastor (at a United Church of Christ church) were ALL OVER the 2008 campaign. As were the rumors that he's Muslim.
As for Harry Reid, if I recall, he actually gets a really low rating from NARAL.
I remember comments about the former pastor, but honestly my religious views have changed so much over the past 10 years that I didn't assume he necessarily still followed the same religion. And I discounted the "Muslim" fears mostly because who the hell cares if he is Muslim. A
Seriously penguin??!! Obama's religion is discussed All. The. Time.
I'll admit, I'm up on many things but have somehow missed that. Or maybe I tune out religion since I'm not a believer. I'll admit it's highly possible.
Ummmmm...
ETA - Just saw the latest post. I'm at least relieved that you knew about the incessant claims of him being a scary Muslim.
List of Presidential religious affiliations (by religion)
Baptist
Warren Harding Harry Truman Jimmy Carter (Southern Baptist) Bill Clinton (Southern Baptist)
Congregationalist
Calvin Coolidge John Adams (later Unitarian)
Disciples of Christ
James Garfield Lyndon Johnson Ronald Reagan (also Presbyterian)
Dutch Reformed
Martin Van Buren Theodore Roosevelt
Episcopalian
George Washington James Madison James Monroe William Henry Harrison John Tyler Zachary Taylor Franklin Pierce Chester A. Arthur Franklin D. Roosevelt Gerald Ford George H. W. Bush George W. Bush (later Methodist)
Methodist
James Polk (originally Presbyterian) Ulysses Grant (allegedly; his theology is unknown) William McKinley George W. Bush (originally Episcopalian)
Presbyterian
Andrew Jackson James Polk (later Methodist) James Buchanan Grover Cleveland Benjamin Harrison Woodrow Wilson Dwight D. Eisenhower Ronald Reagan (also Disciples of Christ)
Quaker
Herbert Hoover Richard Nixon
Roman Catholic
John F. Kennedy
Unitarian
John Adams John Quincy Adams Millard Fillmore William Howard Taft
United Church of Christ
Barack Obama (later no affiliation)
Note that the 1957 merger which formed the U.C.C. included the Congregational Christian Churches.
No denominational affiliation
Thomas Jefferson Abraham Lincoln Andrew Johnson Ulysses Grant Rutherford Hayes Barack Obama (previously United Church of Christ)
I'll admit, I'm up on many things but have somehow missed that. Or maybe I tune out religion since I'm not a believer. I'll admit it's highly possible.
Ummmmm...
ETA - Just saw the latest post. I'm at least relieved that you knew about the incessant claims of him being a scary Muslim.
I should have said that I have heard the alarmist fears about his religion. Those did not escape me. I just had no idea what his current, actual faith was. And from the looks of it that's because if he is currently practicing a religion it is not done publicly (per PP showing the wiki page not telling his religion).
I vote for a candidate based on their values and who I feel best matches what I value or want to see change, stay the same, etc. I don't normally care about religion at all when it comes to a candidate but I did step back a bit when I found out Romney is Mormon.
DH's entire family that I know is Mormon and I happen to be the odd man out being an atheist. Some are pretty extreme in the way they follow their faith which is OK but it doesn't make sense to me (nor does any religion really). Some of their views are so off from what I believe (or don't believe) that it just doesn't sit right with me. Now this pertains to religion in general for me but I am more exposed to the Mormon church and their teachings due to one half of my family being this religion. My side of the family may go to church here and there or not at all but they are not as into it as my Mormon family whom sometimes like to start every sentence with "Well the good book says....." or throw in some type of scripture.
Would I vote for Romney? If his iews aligned with mine then yes. If not, then no. This goes to all candidates regardless of their religion.
I'd PREFER an atheist candidate, but I'm a dreamer I generally wouldn't care much what people believed religion-wise, provided I thought they could govern as to what was best for the country and leave personal beliefs out of it.
That's sad. I hate that a candidate's religious views are part of the discussion in any way, shape or form. IMO religion is (or should be) a private thing to a person, not something to wear on your sleeve. Those who are really outspoken about their religion seem disingenuous to me. So if I liked a candidate and they aligned with my views and I later found out they were mormon that would have absolutely no impact on me at the polls.
This. 100% this (minus the Obama/religion part).
I get irrationally and flaming pissed when religion enters the political discussion. The United States isn't a fucking theocracy. I don't want to hear about religion, religious rights, blah blah blah. Do it on Sunday, not in the government.
I believe people can govern without interjecting their faith. I don't currently think the people of the US can keep from interjecting faith into political matters and I'm fucking tired of it.
That's sad. I hate that a candidate's religious views are part of the discussion in any way, shape or form. IMO religion is (or should be) a private thing to a person, not something to wear on your sleeve. Those who are really outspoken about their religion seem disingenuous to me. So if I liked a candidate and they aligned with my views and I later found out they were mormon that would have absolutely no impact on me at the polls.
This. 100% this (minus the Obama/religion part).
I get irrationally and flaming pissed when religion enters the political discussion. The United States isn't a fucking theocracy. I don't want to hear about religion, religious rights, blah blah blah. Do it on Sunday, not in the government.
I believe people can govern without interjecting their faith. I don't currently think the people of the US can keep from interjecting faith into political matters and I'm fucking tired of it.
Worded far better than I did, but that's pretty much what I meant. Religion is irrelevant to the polls unless you plan to use it governing, which you aren't supposed to do. I feel it shouldn't be part of the discussion at all.