Why are homeowner's associations such a thing anyways? Why are they everywhere? What is the upside to them? I've only lived in apartments so I have no idea.
In addition to the points that ttt already covered, there seems to be a lot of people who believe down to their toes that NOT having an HOA means living in constant terror that your neighbor is going to let his lawn go to seed, or paint his fence chartreuse, or open an auto body shop on his front lawn, which of course means that your property would then be worth about $.14. Because that ALWAYS happens when there's no HOA to prevent it. And these people are perfectly content to be told how to maintain their property if it means not having to risk the above scenarios.
That's why my town has zoning laws. They can't stop lawn abuse presumably or colors - but everything else.
Oh and here's another thing - a lot of real estate search sites don't even let you search for "No HOA." So it's hard enough to even find a house that doesn't have one.
ETA: Redfin lets you do that, but all the other sites I've looked at so far do not.
It had to be disclosed at the time of purchase. I just can't believe that she didn't know that HOA came with the house and had certain requirements.
Yes, because real estate industry never does shady things.
Given that she paid cash, it seems entirely possible to me that the papers weren't presented to her, considering her purchase was highly unusual. Given that notice of the pending foreclosure was never even delivered to her, I'm calling bullshit.
But by all means, lets jump to conclusions that this was her fault because in America, corporations are people except when it comes to responsibility.
Why are homeowner's associations such a thing anyways? Why are they everywhere? What is the upside to them? I've only lived in apartments so I have no idea.
Our HOA:
- Contracts with our trash and recycling company - Contracts with our snow removal company - Maintains the common grounds - Maintains the cemetery in our neighborhood (really!) - Polices the neighborhood for property maintenance, but not in an assholey way
Our property taxes don't cover trash and recycling, so if we didn't live in an HOA we'd have to contract for that privately. And while the county does provide snow removal on county-maintained roads, our street isn't county-maintained, so we'd have to get together with our neighbors to contract for that privately as well if we weren't in the HOA.
Re policing the neighborhood for good property maintenance, our HOA is just about right (for us, anyway): They do a big inspection every year at the beginning of the summer and if there's something big, then they'll ding you for it and you have basically until the end of the summer to fix it. Last year they dinged us for needing our siding washed on one side of the house (which we did -- it was getting mossy). This year we got dinged for our mailbox looking crappy (which it did) and for needing the backside of our fence stained. The fence thing was kinda weird, but I'll save you the whole story -- ultimately the HOA wasn't dickish about it and it got resolved in a way that made everybody happy.
If there's some big infraction that happens between annual inspections, then the HOA takes care of it. For example, the couple who own the house next to ours has moved and they're renting the house out now. The first tenants owned a construction company, and after living in the house for about a month they decided to bring all of their construction trucks and park them at the house. All of them. Trailers and all. And since they wouldn't all fit in the driveway, they just parked them in the yard. Front yard, side yard, wherever they'd fit. The HOA took action and eventually the homeowner had to evict the tenants over that and a whole bunch of other issues (not all HOA-related). I guess all of us neighbors could have gone over there and talked with the tenants about the vehicles and things, but honestly it's nice to have the HOA go to bat for us over stuff like that.
I know HOAs aren't for everyone, and that's okay. And I also know that we're lucky to have a really good HOA -- they take care of stuff reasonably and promptly and they're professionally run, and our fees aren't astronomical. Some HOAs really are from the devil.
Still, you know what you're getting into when you buy. And sure, an HOA can go all to hell after you've already bought and then you have a problem you didn't sign up for, but just paying the required fees? That's easy. I don't understand how someone could buy a house in an HOA and not know about at least the fee structure and the consequences for not paying said fees. You'd have to be deliberately ignorant to not understand at least that much.
So I checked on RedFin, and even the few homes available in my area that come up under a "No HOA" search, when you look at the details, they actually DO have HOAs.
In the $250k-$450k range in Marietta, GA, there are currently 96 homes for sale. Of those, it says 51 have no HOA. Which seems, ok, reasonable. But of the houses built since 2000, only 8 come up "No HOA" - and of those, one is actually a lot, 3 actually do have HOAs, two are unclear if they have HOAs are not. Which leaves exactly two houses for sale that don't have HOAs.
So, out of 30 homes built since 2000 currently for sale in that price range, only two have no HOA. If you go older, you can probably do better, but you can see what the trend is here.
It had to be disclosed at the time of purchase. I just can't believe that she didn't know that HOA came with the house and had certain requirements.
Yes, because real estate industry never does shady things.
Given that she paid cash, it seems entirely possible to me that the papers weren't presented to her, considering her purchase was highly unusual. Given that notice of the pending foreclosure was never even delivered to her, I'm calling bullshit.
But by all means, lets jump to conclusions that this was her fault because in America, corporations are people except when it comes to responsibility.
I hope she sues her title company.
If it wasn't disclosed, by all means! I agree. But even with a cash purchase it's not like you just pay cash and they hand over the keys. Assuming she has a title policy, I'm gonna guess that the HOA was noted on there.
Hmmm. Does that mean there is a much lower corresponding property tax in that city/town? Or none maybe I imagine. Interesting. Thanks.
Our property taxes are very low. We have no state income tax and our property taxes on a $700k house are about $3500/yr in the best school district in the state.
Our HOA dues are a lot. They provide for several neighborhood parks, tennis courts, a club house, a couple swimming pools, hiking trails, bike paths, neighborhood events, etc.
Holy crap. Maybe we should move to Nashville. We pay $9500 a year in property taxes on a similarly priced home in Atlanta in a so-so school district in a crappy county.
In Atlanta the HOA's are really only prominent in the suburbs, not in the city. I don't know anyone who has one. We pay $30 a year, by choice, for our neighborhood civic association, but it is completely voluntary.
Our property taxes are very low. We have no state income tax and our property taxes on a $700k house are about $3500/yr in the best school district in the state.
Our HOA dues are a lot. They provide for several neighborhood parks, tennis courts, a club house, a couple swimming pools, hiking trails, bike paths, neighborhood events, etc.
Holy crap. Maybe we should move to Nashville. We pay $9500 a year in property taxes on a similarly priced home in Atlanta in a so-so school district in a crappy county.
In Atlanta the HOA's are really only prominent in the suburbs, not in the city. I don't know anyone who has one. We pay $30 a year, by choice, for our neighborhood civic association, but it is completely voluntary.
I think this is because of the age of the homes. There's not a lot of new construction inside city limits. We lived in an area that did have new construction, and that's where our utterly useless and obscenely expensive HOA was.
Holy crap. Maybe we should move to Nashville. We pay $9500 a year in property taxes on a similarly priced home in Atlanta in a so-so school district in a crappy county.
In Atlanta the HOA's are really only prominent in the suburbs, not in the city. I don't know anyone who has one. We pay $30 a year, by choice, for our neighborhood civic association, but it is completely voluntary.
I think this is because of the age of the homes. There's not a lot of new construction inside city limits. We lived in an area that did have new construction, and that's where our utterly useless and obscenely expensive HOA was.
My entire neighborhood in Brookhaven is essentially new construction (tear downs of old homes). I would say on my street of 25 homes 18 of them have been built since 2006. Maybe it is only in Brookhaven, but none of my friends in Decatur are part of HOAs either.
Edit: We also don't have a pool/tennis courts/golf/etc
I think this is because of the age of the homes. There's not a lot of new construction inside city limits. We lived in an area that did have new construction, and that's where our utterly useless and obscenely expensive HOA was.
My entire neighborhood in Brookhaven is essentially new construction (tear downs of old homes). I would say on my street of 25 homes 18 of them have been built since 2006. Maybe it is only in Brookhaven, but none of my friends in Decatur are part of HOAs either.
Edit: We also don't have a pool/tennis courts/golf/etc
I didn't know this.
I tried to do the same Redfin search and check it out myself, but there are no homes for sale in Brookhaven under $450k, HOA or not, so...
ETA: I take that back - there is one, but it is HOA.
LOL here is another HOA story - man fined because his trees are too small. Apparently, they are not aware that trees actually do this thing called 'growing.'
My entire neighborhood in Brookhaven is essentially new construction (tear downs of old homes). I would say on my street of 25 homes 18 of them have been built since 2006. Maybe it is only in Brookhaven, but none of my friends in Decatur are part of HOAs either.
Edit: We also don't have a pool/tennis courts/golf/etc
I didn't know this.
I tried to do the same Redfin search and check it out myself, but there are no homes for sale in Brookhaven under $450k, HOA or not, so...
ETA: I take that back - there is one, but it is HOA.
There is one that I thought of, that has about 20 homes, that is a weird insular subdivision inside a bigger neighborhood, and they have a pond, and therefore an HOA. Otherwise most of the area doesn't.
Why are homeowner's associations such a thing anyways? Why are they everywhere? What is the upside to them? I've only lived in apartments so I have no idea.
This year we got dinged for our mailbox looking crappy (which it did) and for needing the backside of our fence stained.
why would anyone care about either of these things? This seems ridiculous to me.
I think this is because of the age of the homes. There's not a lot of new construction inside city limits. We lived in an area that did have new construction, and that's where our utterly useless and obscenely expensive HOA was.
My entire neighborhood in Brookhaven is essentially new construction (tear downs of old homes). I would say on my street of 25 homes 18 of them have been built since 2006. Maybe it is only in Brookhaven, but none of my friends in Decatur are part of HOAs either.
Edit: We also don't have a pool/tennis courts/golf/etc
In order to have an HOA you need a new subdivision not in-fill projects or tear downs
My entire neighborhood in Brookhaven is essentially new construction (tear downs of old homes). I would say on my street of 25 homes 18 of them have been built since 2006. Maybe it is only in Brookhaven, but none of my friends in Decatur are part of HOAs either.
Edit: We also don't have a pool/tennis courts/golf/etc
In order to have an HOA you need a new subdivision not in-fill projects or tear downs
That makes sense, which is why most of our area is HOA free.
It had to be disclosed at the time of purchase. I just can't believe that she didn't know that HOA came with the house and had certain requirements.
Yes, because real estate industry never does shady things.
Given that she paid cash, it seems entirely possible to me that the papers weren't presented to her, considering her purchase was highly unusual. Given that notice of the pending foreclosure was never even delivered to her, I'm calling bullshit.
But by all means, lets jump to conclusions that this was her fault because in America, corporations are people except when it comes to responsibility.
I hope she sues her title company.
It's really getting me that she was getting bills for the HOA--and admits it..and then says "Well I didn't know! Didn't ask! Just threw them away!"
"The HOA dues in her neighborhood? $48 per year. She owes a total of $288. The homeowner says that she just tossed the letters she received, assuming that the HOA was some kind of social organization that collected money from residents to access the pool or something. “I didn’t know it was mandatory to join this…homeowners’,” she says with some distaste. “I told them, I’m not joining.”
Yes, because real estate industry never does shady things.
Given that she paid cash, it seems entirely possible to me that the papers weren't presented to her, considering her purchase was highly unusual. Given that notice of the pending foreclosure was never even delivered to her, I'm calling bullshit.
But by all means, lets jump to conclusions that this was her fault because in America, corporations are people except when it comes to responsibility.
I hope she sues her title company.
It's really getting me that she was getting bills for the HOA--and admits it..and then says "Well I didn't know! Didn't ask! Just threw them away!"
"The HOA dues in her neighborhood? $48 per year. She owes a total of $288. The homeowner says that she just tossed the letters she received, assuming that the HOA was some kind of social organization that collected money from residents to access the pool or something. “I didn’t know it was mandatory to join this…homeowners’,” she says with some distaste. “I told them, I’m not joining.”
But she didn't know they were bills - she thought they were trying to get her to join a neighborhood social group, she wasn't interested, so she threw them away. I don't think she even is familiar with the concept of an HOA, where you HAVE to pay money to a group, whether you want to belong to them or not and whether you actually get anything out of it or not.
I just think it's utterly absurd that some private organization should have the power to force you to join an organization you don't want to be part of, tell you what to do with the house that YOU paid for and YOU own, and they can take your entire house out from under you if you don't do what they say or if you don't even agree to join their organization. It's a travesty and I can't understand how it even exists in this country.
Is the keyword here "private?" Because I can think of at least two examples of this similar mandate of belonging being required of a general citizen.
This year we got dinged for our mailbox looking crappy (which it did) and for needing the backside of our fence stained.
why would anyone care about either of these things? This seems ridiculous to me.
::shrugs:: Some people do, some people don't. The main thing, though, is that we knew going into the purchase of our home that our mailbox (and other things) would have to be maintained to a certain standard, because we read the HOA docs that were provided to us and made sure we were okay with everything our HOA requires. To be honest, mailbox maintenance really isn't a big deal to us either, but it goes along with the other HOA covenants so we do it.
Now, there are things that would bug the heck out of us. We don't so much care about the color of someone else's front door, but we do care about serious maintenance problems. In our last neighborhood, where we were renting, we lived down the street from a home that was so poorly maintained that it was ultimately condemned. We both hated that, and that's a big part of why we bought into a neighborhood with an HOA: We learned then that we would be unhappy about making our mortgage payment every month while having to live near a really awful property. HOAs are a good fit for us. I know living in a non-HOA community wouldn't mean that our neighbors would automatically let their houses rot around them or anything, but we see the HOA as insurance we don't mind paying (and some sometimes silly rules that we don't mind following).
We also researched our HOA pretty thoroughly before buying. Not all HOAs are created equal, and it was our hope that we could find an HOA that took care of the things we cared about without also being all assholey about it. We lucked out and found an HOA we could easily live with. There are some neighborhoods near us with HOAs that are, in our opinion, pretty insane, and we wouldn't have been comfortable purchasing in those areas.
There are also lots of non-HOA homes available in our area. It sounds like that's not the case everywhere, which I didn't realize until reading this thread. I'm sorry to learn that some of you have been essentially forced to buy into an HOA because of a lack of non-HOA stock. I agree that you shouldn't *have* to buy into an HOA if you don't want to.
My hoa is kind of annoying but not overbearing like the stories I read on here. I am not understanding how she bought a home and was unaware of the HOA existence.
Yes, because real estate industry never does shady things.
Given that she paid cash, it seems entirely possible to me that the papers weren't presented to her, considering her purchase was highly unusual. Given that notice of the pending foreclosure was never even delivered to her, I'm calling bullshit.
But by all means, lets jump to conclusions that this was her fault because in America, corporations are people except when it comes to responsibility.
I hope she sues her title company.
If it wasn't disclosed, by all means! I agree. But even with a cash purchase it's not like you just pay cash and they hand over the keys. Assuming she has a title policy, I'm gonna guess that the HOA was noted on there.
I wonder if it was explained to her. Because if it wasn't for this board, I would have no idea that a home owners association was something you HAD to join and not some nice, friendly neighborhood club I could ignore if I were feeling anti-social.
Maybe things work differently in Kentucky, but here if you're buying a home in an area with an HOA, the seller is required to provide you with a copy of the HOA bylaws and covenants prior to closing. The buyer has to initial a document saying they've read them as part of the closing paperwork.
That's how it is here too and I was told by someone (no clue if this is accurate though) that if a buyer is not told there's an HOA then the buyer is allowed to back out of the deal even after closing.
Also, our taxes are lower b/c many of our "city" services are provided by others, incl our HOA. We pay for our own snow removal, trash pickup, street cleaning, etc. Because there is a lot of agricultural land in our city - that was the excuse I was given - our city doesn't have many laws about how property needs to be maintained. For example, there's no regulation that grass has to be cut. So HOAs provide that regulation instead. I'd HATE to live in an HOA with overly picky people and I never liked living in one, even though ours was very laid back. But it was nice to take a complaint to someone one street over vs having to deal with the local gov't. And it was easier to get the entire neighborhood on board with pushing an issue to the local gov't since we met yearly and already had neighborhood leaders. We organized 2 "campaigns" that I don't think ever would have happened without our HOAs. But both failed so I guess the benefit isn't that great.
It's really getting me that she was getting bills for the HOA--and admits it..and then says "Well I didn't know! Didn't ask! Just threw them away!"
"The HOA dues in her neighborhood? $48 per year. She owes a total of $288. The homeowner says that she just tossed the letters she received, assuming that the HOA was some kind of social organization that collected money from residents to access the pool or something. “I didn’t know it was mandatory to join this…homeowners’,” she says with some distaste. “I told them, I’m not joining.”
But she didn't know they were bills - she thought they were trying to get her to join a neighborhood social group, she wasn't interested, so she threw them away. I don't think she even is familiar with the concept of an HOA, where you HAVE to pay money to a group, whether you want to belong to them or not and whether you actually get anything out of it or not.
This is the thing I don't buy. If she purchased the home, then she'd been given the opportunity to learn what the HOA was. If she didn't read the HOA docs prior to purchase then that's her own fault, and purchasing something as major as real estate without reading everything associated with the purchase just isn't smart. Also not smart: Throwing away her HOA bills without reading them thoroughly. I'd be surprised if the bills didn't make it clear that payment was mandatory, not optional. Seriously, if you got a bill in the mail for $48, followed by another one for that same $48 plus a late fee (which I'll bet she got as well) wouldn't you take a minute to at least scan it before trashing it? And a scan would have been enough to clarify this for her.
I agree it's sad that she lost her home over $288 in unpaid HOA dues, but I also think she must have passed on more than one opportunity to get educated about her HOA.
Our property taxes are very low. We have no state income tax and our property taxes on a $700k house are about $3500/yr in the best school district in the state.
Our HOA dues are a lot. They provide for several neighborhood parks, tennis courts, a club house, a couple swimming pools, hiking trails, bike paths, neighborhood events, etc.
Holy crap. Maybe we should move to Nashville. We pay $9500 a year in property taxes on a similarly priced home in Atlanta in a so-so school district in a crappy county.
In Atlanta the HOA's are really only prominent in the suburbs, not in the city. I don't know anyone who has one. We pay $30 a year, by choice, for our neighborhood civic association, but it is completely voluntary.
I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone. I didn't realize there was such a huge difference in property taxes. We have a $200K house and we pay about $4000 a year in property taxes and 2.5% a year in city income tax, not to mention state and federal income tax. Get me the hell out of this stupid state!
I find it hard to believe that, even if she paid cash that she wasn't informed about the HOA at closing. I've purchased homes in several states that had HOAs and had to initial receipt of the CC&Rs from each HOA.
Since moving back East, I havent run into any non-condo HOAs but I now live in a rural area. I do own a vacation condo on the Outer Banks and just about all developments have HOAs there. With a condo, you really can't avoid it because the association actually owns, insures and maintains all of the buildings and the common elements (in our case, a marina, all of the grounds, and supporting infrastructure, a clubhouse with pool, spa and workout room). We pay $1300 per quarter for all of it and it's money well spent as the complex is well maintained, properly insured, etc. The environment is harsh which necessitates constant maintenance and excellent insurance coverage). I laughed at the comment about the HOA being "big business" because most run on a shoestring and a vast majority are severely underfunded.
Anyway, I don't believe the homeowner in the original story "didn't know" that the mail wasn't about joining social club. At least some of those notices would have been from the Association's attorney and the ones that weren't would have had language about referring to the attorney for foreclosure.
I just think it's utterly absurd that some private organization should have the power to force you to join an organization you don't want to be part of, tell you what to do with the house that YOU paid for and YOU own, and they can take your entire house out from under you if you don't do what they say or if you don't even agree to join their organization. It's a travesty and I can't understand how it even exists in this country.
Is the keyword here "private?" Because I can think of at least two examples of this similar mandate of belonging being required of a general citizen.
Yes, exactly. As a citizen of this country, this state, this county, I am entitled to certain benefits. I'm entitled to have the US military defend my general safety, I'm entitled to send my children to the local public schools, I'm entitled to service when I call 911, I'm entitled to use the highway system, etc. Yes, I have to pay taxes, but I'm entitled to something in exchange. But with HOAs, there's no exchange - I don't necessarily get any benefit at all in exchange for the dues that I pay. Some HOAs have a clubhouse or pool, but many don't. And the government is not allowed to simply take my property - I'm entitled to a trial, to due process. None of that applies to HOAs.
But she didn't know they were bills - she thought they were trying to get her to join a neighborhood social group, she wasn't interested, so she threw them away. I don't think she even is familiar with the concept of an HOA, where you HAVE to pay money to a group, whether you want to belong to them or not and whether you actually get anything out of it or not.
This is the thing I don't buy. If she purchased the home, then she'd been given the opportunity to learn what the HOA was. If she didn't read the HOA docs prior to purchase then that's her own fault, and purchasing something as major as real estate without reading everything associated with the purchase just isn't smart. Also not smart: Throwing away her HOA bills without reading them thoroughly. I'd be surprised if the bills didn't make it clear that payment was mandatory, not optional. Seriously, if you got a bill in the mail for $48, followed by another one for that same $48 plus a late fee (which I'll bet she got as well) wouldn't you take a minute to at least scan it before trashing it? And a scan would have been enough to clarify this for her.
I agree it's sad that she lost her home over $288 in unpaid HOA dues, but I also think she must have passed on more than one opportunity to get educated about her HOA.
What makes you think she even opened it to find out it was a bill rather than just a "join our organization!" kind of letter? If she saw the HOA letterhead for the return address, she probably trashed it without even opening it, thinking it was basically junk mail.
This is the thing I don't buy. If she purchased the home, then she'd been given the opportunity to learn what the HOA was. If she didn't read the HOA docs prior to purchase then that's her own fault, and purchasing something as major as real estate without reading everything associated with the purchase just isn't smart. Also not smart: Throwing away her HOA bills without reading them thoroughly. I'd be surprised if the bills didn't make it clear that payment was mandatory, not optional. Seriously, if you got a bill in the mail for $48, followed by another one for that same $48 plus a late fee (which I'll bet she got as well) wouldn't you take a minute to at least scan it before trashing it? And a scan would have been enough to clarify this for her.
I agree it's sad that she lost her home over $288 in unpaid HOA dues, but I also think she must have passed on more than one opportunity to get educated about her HOA.
What makes you think she even opened it to find out it was a bill rather than just a "join our organization!" kind of letter? If she saw the HOA letterhead for the return address, she probably trashed it without even opening it, thinking it was basically junk mail.
Well, then she should have opened it. When has mail from an HOA ever been junk mail? And like a PP said, some of her HOA-related mail would have been from an attorney. I know because I totally forgot to pay our dues one quarter and got a letter via registered mail from our HOA's attorney. If this went far enough for her to lose her house, then she surely received something similar. Think she tossed the letters from the attorney too?
I mean, she wasn't even given proper notice of the foreclosure. I can see how she might not have been given full notice of the HOA and it's requirements
I mean "home owners association" sounds friendly and social and like a good volunteer organization - like the PTA. not something you could lose your house over.