Going to a place like Northwestern worth it?

[Deleted]

May 14, 2012 10:35:45 GMT -5 @redbellpeppers said:

May 14, 2012 10:32:37 GMT -5 v said:

I think you'd be surprised. There are a lot of smart rich kids out there who want to save the world. On their parents' dime.

This is the truth!

I have a friend that went to RBP's school. She's a social worker. My sister went to RBP's school too. She's a teacher :-)

[Brie]

May 14, 2012 10:54:34 GMT -5 @blessed said:

May 14, 2012 10:43:52 GMT -5 Brie said:

I am a Northwestern alum, and had a single parent.

For me, it was 110% worth it. I actually left Northwestern with about $5k in loans, which is a fantastic deal. Because their endowment is so large, they can really help out students with financial need. (And there are a lot of people at Northwestern who definitely do NOT need it.) It wound up being cheaper for me to go to Northwestern than any other college I applied to. I had an absolutely fantastic experience there. It's an incredible institution, and I don't regret it one bit.

As far as the name recognition goes, I do find that my degree gets a lot of respect professionally. I don't live in the Chicago area anymore, but when people ask where I went to college and I tell them, I often get a "wow, that's a great school" or similar response. The alumni network is also really great and helped me out some when I was job searching.

This kid does need to call financial aid and get some serious numbers though. Back when I was admitted, I got a statement that very clearly spelled out what I was getting and what my expected contributions would be.

Just curious, would you feel the same way if you did graduate with the 120k in loans that the OP mentioned?

I'm pretty sure you've mentioned your salary before and from what I remember it's not super high. Therefore I'm just curious if your feelings would be different if you were single, making the salary you are making now with undergrad and law school loans?

(And in case this isn't coming across correctly, I am asking this in a nice manner

Haha, no worries!

I have $120K in loans, but they're almost all from law school, FWIW. I attribute my low salary mostly due to the fact that I attempted to become a lawyer at a really bad time economically and had to take what I could get. My law school grades weren't great--I think I graduated with a 3.0, so they weren't bad, but not strong enough to place me anywhere I'd make half decent money and not be miserable in a crappy economy. I think that if I'd picked a different, non-law school path, I'd probably still not be making a ton of money, since the things that interest me aren't really money-makers anyway (education, non-profits, etc).

Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd take out an additional $120K loans on my salary alone to go to Northwestern, assuming I had good scholarship offers from other colleges. But, if I was graduating from high school, didn't know if I wanted to go to grad school yet, loved the school, and didn't have any outstanding offers from other decent institutions, I'd consider it, for sure.

For me, it came down to Northwestern for $5K total, tiny liberal arts college in a town I hated for $20K total, or less tiny and kinda-liked-it liberal arts college for about $30K total. It was just a no-brainer. I had no desire to go to any of the big schools in Illinois with half my high school graduating class, and I didn't feel ready to go very far from home yet.

And FWIW, I did well my first year at Northwestern and was given even more scholarship money as a sophomore without even applying for it. So, if this kid doesn't have a scholarship offer now, he may be eligible later if he does well.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2012 10:58:10 GMT -5 Brie said:

May 14, 2012 10:51:11 GMT -5 slug*bug said:

In my field, people don't care where I went to undergrad. They care where I went to grad school. So in my field, the Northwestern name would've likely not helped enough to warrant ~$120 K in loans (though I hear what Brie's saying about it not necessarily being that expensive...and in that case, of COURSE it would be worth it.)

I do, however, have a HS friend who's a Northwestern alum. She's now at Kellogg: I'm sure her undergrad affiliation probably didn't hurt her chances when she was applying to grad programs (though to her credit, amazingly bright on her own.)

Yeah, $120K for Northwestern would give me pause, for sure. I would want to weigh what his other options were as far as schools. If he's from Chicago and has a full ride to Illinois, I would be inclined to tell him to go there.

As far as the grad school thing: I do think that the Northwestern name and reputation comes into play in grad school admissions, which is something to consider. So, even though it's the name on your graduate degree that matters, you might have a better shot at getting a good name there if you have a stronger undergrad. (Probably not worth $120K, but it's a factor.) I am pretty confident that my strong GPA from Northwestern helped me out quite a bit in the law school admissions process. It's a tough curriculum without much grade inflation, and grad schools know that.

But I do think the kid in the OP needs to have a come to Jesus meeting with the financial aid office.

I agree undergrad school name helps with grad school admissions. How many doctors do you know who went to podunk town state college? Most went to well-regarded private undergrads or their state's flagship university.

My law school class seem to be all people from well-regarded private schools or state flag ship. There were a couple that went to no name regional schools and for the most part their credentials (graduated 1st in their class, 4.0, etc and very high LSAT--above the average for the school) were stellar compared to those with better brand name under grads

[Deleted]

May 14, 2012 10:59:47 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I think the key thing to remember is that the amount of people coming out of elite schools with a high debt burden is actually very, very small. Remember ,these schools have very large endowments and offer millions of dollars of "need based financial aid" every year. The only way someone will come out of an elite school with $100K+ of student loans is because their parents refused to pay the "expected parental contribution".

Or they took out tons of extra money for living expenses or something crazy.

There is no way the mother is going to be able to pay the "expected parental contribution" since she can barely afford rent and food. How much is that % usually?

The kid is going into some medical research related field. I can't remember exactly what for--but I don't think he wanted to become a Dr.

[Wines Not Whines]

I think it's probably not worth it for undergrad, but likely worth it for grad school, depending on what exactly he studies.

[Brie]

May 14, 2012 11:09:24 GMT -5 flygirl said:

May 14, 2012 10:59:47 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I think the key thing to remember is that the amount of people coming out of elite schools with a high debt burden is actually very, very small. Remember ,these schools have very large endowments and offer millions of dollars of "need based financial aid" every year. The only way someone will come out of an elite school with $100K+ of student loans is because their parents refused to pay the "expected parental contribution".

Or they took out tons of extra money for living expenses or something crazy.

There is no way the mother is going to be able to pay the "expected parental contribution" since she can barely afford rent and food. How much is that % usually?

The kid is going into some medical research related field. I can't remember exactly what for--but I don't think he wanted to become a Dr.

I do think this family needs to get their shit together and call the financial aid office. Northwestern has the money to play hardball with financial aid. If they want this kid, they will pay to get him there.

[quickstepstar]

I don't know. I think it depends what he wants the degree for. I think the school does matter a lot, since it is more like a status symbol. Also I know my company recruits in top colleges, and not some of the lesser known ones.

[chia]

There are very, very few schools that I feel are "worth it" for $120K in undergrad debt - I could count them all on one hand. Even if you're on the slooooow payment plan, that's $700+ in payments every month.

[LoveTrains]

May 14, 2012 11:09:24 GMT -5 flygirl said:

May 14, 2012 10:59:47 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

I think the key thing to remember is that the amount of people coming out of elite schools with a high debt burden is actually very, very small. Remember ,these schools have very large endowments and offer millions of dollars of "need based financial aid" every year. The only way someone will come out of an elite school with $100K+ of student loans is because their parents refused to pay the "expected parental contribution".

Or they took out tons of extra money for living expenses or something crazy.

There is no way the mother is going to be able to pay the "expected parental contribution" since she can barely afford rent and food. How much is that % usually?

The kid is going into some medical research related field. I can't remember exactly what for--but I don't think he wanted to become a Dr.

If she can barely afford rent and food the expected family contribution should be very, very small. For example, at Harvard if your household income is less than I think $50K the parent contribution is essentially $0.

[Mrs.Beagle]

Does he know what he wants to study? He still needs to call the financial aid office and find out what's going on there.

For teaching and social work, you need graduate degrees. A lot of people in my program went to really prestigous schools for undergrad, but still needed that graduate degree. And in social work, the school (and thus, type of program) does make a difference.

I loved where I went to undergrad, and though it's expensive as hell, need and merit based aid was generous.

[Deleted]

Again, if the mother can barely pay rent then the likelihood of this kid having to rack up a ton of SL debt is very low. My school has the same program as Harvard where you are capped at the amount of SLs you take out based on HHI. That is nothing to sneeze at.

[jm1982]

personally, my vote is no. i'm a big fan of starting off at state schools for undergrad, then moving on to private/elite schools for future degrees, when the name is more important and they're more likely to be funded.

i say this as someone who is currently working on her phd at northwestern.

[slug*bug]

May 14, 2012 10:58:10 GMT -5 Brie said:

May 14, 2012 10:51:11 GMT -5 slug*bug said:

In my field, people don't care where I went to undergrad. They care where I went to grad school. So in my field, the Northwestern name would've likely not helped enough to warrant ~$120 K in loans (though I hear what Brie's saying about it not necessarily being that expensive...and in that case, of COURSE it would be worth it.)

I do, however, have a HS friend who's a Northwestern alum. She's now at Kellogg: I'm sure her undergrad affiliation probably didn't hurt her chances when she was applying to grad programs (though to her credit, amazingly bright on her own.)

Yeah, $120K for Northwestern would give me pause, for sure. I would want to weigh what his other options were as far as schools. If he's from Chicago and has a full ride to Illinois, I would be inclined to tell him to go there.

As far as the grad school thing: I do think that the Northwestern name and reputation comes into play in grad school admissions, which is something to consider.

Maybe...but I graduated from another Big 10 university (not Northwestern) and was still admitted to an Ivy for grad school. It really depends on your field.

[Deleted]

Useless major -- not worth it.

Useful major -- well worth it.

LOL.

[clickerish]

Honestly, I think it depends how motivated the kid is, whether he is going to major in Irish poetry or not (in that case, NO DEBT), how sure he is of what he wants to do (because a LOT of them change), and whether that will require a grad school degree or not. He should also evaluate whether he is the type of student to thrive at a Northwestern type of school or not--because not everyone is and people often overlook that.

It doesn't sound like the kid or his mother are working the financial aid angles enough, since I guarantee the child of a divorced mother who isn't well-off has options. If he's been accepted elsewhere, he should definitely leverage offers.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2012 10:32:37 GMT -5 v said:

May 14, 2012 10:23:00 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Also, how many people get into elite schools and decide to go to social work? (not being snarky)

I think you'd be surprised. There are a lot of smart rich kids out there who want to save the world. On their parents' dime.

Or even NOT on their parents' dime. Not only people who "can't get into" elite schools choose professions that are rewarding in other ways.

I grew up near Northwestern and never even considered applying because of the cost. It was well known even 13 years ago when I was looking at schools that it topped 30k a year. Plus at the time I was a theatre major and would have been lucky to graduate with any income at all

[Myrrhine]

I went to Northwestern for grad school, and I do think my school helped me get a job in my (competitive, low-paying) field. But my program was fully funded. I would not have taken $120k in loans to attend there as an undergrad.

For the record, I went to a little-known / nerdy state school and managed to be accepted to Northwestern and UPenn for grad school. I know someone who went to a small, poorly regarded state school --people joke that the "S" stands for "Stupid" not State-- and then from there to Harvard Law.

[fbf2006]

May 14, 2012 13:27:56 GMT -5 Myrrhine said:

For the record, I went to a little-known / nerdy state school and managed to be accepted to Northwestern and UPenn for grad school. I know someone who went to a small, poorly regarded state school --people joke that the "S" stands for "Stupid" not State-- and then from there to Harvard Law.

There are always stories like this though. Ofcourse people get admitted to elite schools even if they went to crappy undergrads. I think what people are talking about here is more what the norm is. My siblings' business school classmates mostly always come from top universities and top jobs (consulting, investment banking, engineers).

[Deleted]

May 14, 2012 13:27:56 GMT -5 Myrrhine said:

I went to Northwestern for grad school, and I do think my school helped me get a job in my (competitive, low-paying) field. But my program was fully funded. I would not have taken $120k in loans to attend there as an undergrad.

For the record, I went to a little-known / nerdy state school and managed to be accepted to Northwestern and UPenn for grad school. I know someone who went to a small, poorly regarded state school --people joke that the "S" stands for "Stupid" not State-- and then from there to Harvard Law.

It can happen but it is the exception. I'm making up numbers but elite colleges graduate probably 5% of all college graduates in this country and yet if you look at the undergraduate college make up at a school like HLS 90+% went to an elite college or the most competitive (flagship) state universities.

[chia]

May 14, 2012 13:55:21 GMT -5 @septimus said:

May 14, 2012 13:27:56 GMT -5 Myrrhine said:

I went to Northwestern for grad school, and I do think my school helped me get a job in my (competitive, low-paying) field. But my program was fully funded. I would not have taken $120k in loans to attend there as an undergrad.

For the record, I went to a little-known / nerdy state school and managed to be accepted to Northwestern and UPenn for grad school. I know someone who went to a small, poorly regarded state school --people joke that the "S" stands for "Stupid" not State-- and then from there to Harvard Law.

It can happen but it is the exception. I'm making up numbers but elite colleges graduate probably 5% of all college graduates in this country and yet if you look at the undergraduate college make up at a school like HLS 90+% went to an elite college or the most competitive (flagship) state universities.

It's even shocking when you start to look at the undergrad percentages - the percentage of acceptace to Ivy/elite undergrad from exclusive boarding/private schools is so high. Like, in the list that was in Forbes a couple weeks ago, 25-40% of the graduating class got into either an Ivy/Stanford or MIT.

[h]

May 14, 2012 14:03:35 GMT -5 chia said:

May 14, 2012 13:55:21 GMT -5 @septimus said:

It can happen but it is the exception. I'm making up numbers but elite colleges graduate probably 5% of all college graduates in this country and yet if you look at the undergraduate college make up at a school like HLS 90+% went to an elite college or the most competitive (flagship) state universities.

It's even shocking when you start to look at the undergrad percentages - the percentage of acceptace to Ivy/elite undergrad from exclusive boarding/private schools is so high. Like, in the list that was in Forbes a couple weeks ago, 25-40% of the graduating class got into either an Ivy/Stanford or MIT.

This is so true. Many of the people who end up at elite grad schools have been running in elite circles all their lives. A good number of my classmates in law school came from the same tiny handful of eilte prep schools, then went on to an Ivy League college, then an Ivy League law school. There were certainly a handful of kids from state schools there, but there would be maybe one or two per class from a giant state school, versus 26 kids from Harvard, 21 from Yale, 12 from Princeton, 7 from Duke, etc.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2012 12:04:54 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

Useless major -- not worth it.

Useful major -- well worth it.

LOL.

Especially in this economy, I think this is a smart guideline. However, many would consider my majors worthless but IMO I still made out ok.

I think it is a matter of understanding how job prospects work and making sure you learn how to network properly. Unfortunately, a lot of liberal arts majors miss out on this stuff since most are trained to think grad school then jobs.

[dirtyred]

I'm a Northwestern grad, and let me tell you, that name has opened many doors for me. I also probably got a hired for a couple of jobs that I really wasn't qualified for (but did well in) all because I went to NU.

[h]

May 14, 2012 14:19:40 GMT -5 v said:

May 14, 2012 14:09:40 GMT -5 h said:

This is so true. Many of the people who end up at elite grad schools have been running in elite circles all their lives. A good number of my classmates in law school came from the same tiny handful of eilte prep schools, then went on to an Ivy League college, then an Ivy League law school. There were certainly a handful of kids from state schools there, but there would be maybe one or two per class from a giant state school, versus 26 kids from Harvard, 21 from Yale, 12 from Princeton, 7 from Duke, etc.

But is that really so surprising? The students who got into those schools for undergrad are, on average, much smarter than the students from Random State U. And they probably have much stronger median LSAT scores than Random State U does. But that doesn't mean that any individual kid who went to Random State U is not just as smart and capable of getting an LSAT score that will get him into Ivy School of Law. He just may have taken a different path, you know? So of course the elite undergrads are overrepresented at elite law schools.

I agree that elite undergrad institutions have smarter student bodies, on average, than non-elite institutions, and in that sense it is definitely not at all surprising that elite law schools are largely populated with alums of elite colleges. I also agree that an individual student from Random State U who manages to pull off a 175 on the LSAT and a 3.9 GPA will very likely get into a fancy law school--if he applies. But I think a lot of smart kids at Random State U don't really think about pushing for HLS, while many kids Elite U wouldn't think about settling for anything less. I think there is something about being in that elite prep school, elite college world that makes you more likely to end up at HLS than a similarly smart kid at Random State U.

[h]

May 14, 2012 14:57:54 GMT -5 @cookiemonster03 said:

May 14, 2012 14:51:25 GMT -5 h said:

I think there is something about being in that elite prep school, elite college world that makes you more likely to end up at HLS than a similarly smart kid at Random State U.

This is essentially a given. College access research is very clear on the impact of social capital.

And then there's the (not unsubstantial) impact of having parents with money, etc...

I agree. That is kind of my point. You can't say that where you go for undergrad doesn't matter or that a smart, hard-working kid from an unimpressive state school is just as likely to end up in the same place as his or her peer at a more elite school because that doesn't account for social capital. But I agree that it is a ridiculously obvious point, so I am not sure why I am bothering to make it.