Can someone explain the difference between this case where the hospital wants to pull the plug and the Texas case where the hospital refuses to pull the plug?
In the Texas case, why can't the husband just move the wife to a hospital where the plug can be pulled as in here where the family is trying to move her to a hospital where they won't?
What does it mean to be brain dead? Was Terri Schiavo brain dead?
ABC Breaking News is reporting on twitter that the judge has extended the TRO until January 7th.
My UO: I feel for the family, but I think at this point what they are trying to do to this poor child verges on a type of cruelty in itself.
That's not an UO for me. I do believe it is cruel. I don't hold it particularly against them because grief makes people unable to see clearly, but I wish they could just get it.
I cannot understand the judge. This should be a pretty clear case.
Can someone explain the difference between this case where the hospital wants to pull the plug and the Texas case where the hospital refuses to pull the plug?
In the Texas case, why can't the husband just move the wife to a hospital where the plug can be pulled as in here where the family is trying to move her to a hospital where they won't?
What does it mean to be brain dead? Was Terri Schiavo brain dead?
Brain dead means no brain activity. Measuring this includes EEG and signs like whether the patient reacts to pain or light, just to name a couple.
Terri Schiavo was in a persistant vegetative state. I don't know her exact details, but her pupils might have had a light response, for instance.
The Texas case is so fucked up I can't even begin to explain it beyond it's Texas, and they treat women like incubators. For all I know thy included a clause preventing moving a pregnant woman.
Can someone explain the difference between this case where the hospital wants to pull the plug and the Texas case where the hospital refuses to pull the plug?
In the Texas case, why can't the husband just move the wife to a hospital where the plug can be pulled as in here where the family is trying to move her to a hospital where they won't?
What does it mean to be brain dead? Was Terri Schiavo brain dead?
The key differences are 1. The family of the child wants her body preserved / ventilation to remain whereas the husband and parents of the TX woman, and seemingly the woman herself, would like to let her go.
2. The law in TX is different from the law in CA, and the TX law specifically excludes pregnant women from having bodily autonomy if they are on futile care.
Can someone explain the difference between this case where the hospital wants to pull the plug and the Texas case where the hospital refuses to pull the plug?
In the Texas case, why can't the husband just move the wife to a hospital where the plug can be pulled as in here where the family is trying to move her to a hospital where they won't?
What does it mean to be brain dead? Was Terri Schiavo brain dead?
Can't answer most of your questions, but Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. Not sure how that differs from brain dead.
I can't imagine that they'll find ANYPLACE to send her or any doctor to perform the trach and feeding tube procedure. As I said, I feel for the family but they're going too far. And, assuming since they had to raise $20K to have her transferred to a different facility that they don't have excess funds, who is going to pay for her care? I can't see Medi-Cal paying for the care of a dead body, because really, that's what it is.
I just read an article that said there is no blood flow to this girl's brain. Which means the brain is actually starting to kind of decompose, right? It's just so horrifying I feel for the family but this is just cruel now.
Can someone explain the difference between this case where the hospital wants to pull the plug and the Texas case where the hospital refuses to pull the plug?
In the Texas case, why can't the husband just move the wife to a hospital where the plug can be pulled as in here where the family is trying to move her to a hospital where they won't?
What does it mean to be brain dead? Was Terri Schiavo brain dead?
See, this was my question when this was discussed on ML last week, I was so confused...but apparently in CA brain death means the body is actually dead. So I guess in other situations, where machines are also being used to keep a body alive, there must be some brain activity, whereas here there is none, so machines are still being used to keep the body alive, except legally the body isn't considered alive...it is all very confusing to me but apparently shouldn't be.
LA Times says some place in New York is going to take her body. Assholes.
I cannot understand how any ethical practitioner would agree to this. I can be sympathetic to parents wanting it, but it is not compassionate care to allow this.
LA Times says some place in New York is going to take her body. Assholes.
I cannot understand how any ethical practitioner would agree to this. I can be sympathetic to parents wanting it, but it is not compassionate care to allow this.
They have been talking about this supposed place in NY that will take her, but so far, there seems to be no evidence that this is true apart from the family saying it is true.
Can someone explain the difference between this case where the hospital wants to pull the plug and the Texas case where the hospital refuses to pull the plug?
In the Texas case, why can't the husband just move the wife to a hospital where the plug can be pulled as in here where the family is trying to move her to a hospital where they won't?
What does it mean to be brain dead? Was Terri Schiavo brain dead?
See, this was my question when this was discussed on ML last week, I was so confused...but apparently in CA brain death means the body is actually dead. So I guess in other situations, where machines are also being used to keep a body alive, there must be some brain activity, whereas here there is none, so machines are still being used to keep the body alive, except legally the body isn't considered alive...it is all very confusing to me but apparently shouldn't be.
It's a little confusing because it does vary by state, but I don't think it practice it ends up being all that unclear.
The body isn't being kept "alive" because it's not alive. Machines are used to perform some of the functions of the body. It sounds like semantics, but maybe that makes it more clear.
I'm certainly no expert, and I've thankfully never been involved in a situation like this. But from what little I know, a situation like this would be addressed by an ethics review board if the family's wishes in conflict (in either direction) with hospital policy. And probably the vast majority of the time, the family agrees to what the ethics board has decided, so we never end up hearing about it.
I'm going to say WTF again to the judge. Please tell me no one's making a case for this being "pro-life" because I may just scream.
Is the woman in Texas brain dead too? Does each state have a different understanding of brain dead? Or is being brain dead a universally standard medical concept?
I don't feel a lot of warm fuzzies for this family right now. They want to haul a corpse around the country and for some reason some doctor is going to go along with this? This must violate some statutes regarding the handeling of a corpse. This judge is strange.
Is the woman in Texas brain dead too? Does each state have a different understanding of brain dead? Or is being brain dead a universally standard medical concept?
The situation in Texas is "complicated" by a statute that requires life-sustaining treatment if a woman is pregnant, regardless of any directive or known wishes.
Is the woman in Texas brain dead too? Does each state have a different understanding of brain dead? Or is being brain dead a universally standard medical concept?
Brain dead AFAIK is a standard. States may have different standards of whether that qualifies as legally dead.
I don't think the woman in TX is brain dead. She may be in a PVS which should be enough for her advanced directive to be followed. But, Texas legislators don't think women are people therefore they don't have to honor their legal documents.
What qualifies a body to be alive: an active brain or a heart that is pumping blood? I ask because MOST scenarios stating time of death (from my med degree from Grey's Anatomy University with an undergrad from E.R. College) involve when a pulse is no longer present because the heart has stopped beating. I realize in this case it is machines that are keeping the heart beating by ventilating the lungs but I still don't get how she is any less alive than many other patients who require machines to ventilate. Or is their brain functioning at a different level in all of those cases?
Is the woman in Texas brain dead too? Does each state have a different understanding of brain dead? Or is being brain dead a universally standard medical concept?
What qualifies a body to be alive: an active brain or a heart that is pumping blood? I ask because MOST scenarios stating time of death (from my med degree from Grey's Anatomy University with an undergrad from E.R. College) involve when a pulse is no longer present because the heart has stopped beating. I realize in this case it is machines that are keeping the heart beating by ventilating the lungs but I still don't get how she is any less alive than many other patients who require machines to ventilate. Or is their brain functioning at a different level in all of those cases?
There is cardiac death (when the heart stops) and brain death (when the brain stops).
Is the woman in Texas brain dead too? Does each state have a different understanding of brain dead? Or is being brain dead a universally standard medical concept?
What qualifies a body to be alive: an active brain or a heart that is pumping blood? I ask because MOST scenarios stating time of death (from my med degree from Grey's Anatomy University with an undergrad from E.R. College) involve when a pulse is no longer present because the heart has stopped beating. I realize in this case it is machines that are keeping the heart beating by ventilating the lungs but I still don't get how she is any less alive than many other patients who require machines to ventilate. Or is their brain functioning at a different level in all of those cases?
There is cardiac death (when the heart stops) and brain death (when the brain stops).
k, I guess this makes sense...does one supersede the other?
I guess I am just confused because I feel like there are lots of people who are brain dead who have been kept alive because of the family's wishes. But I must be confusing brain death with other circumstances.
Is the woman in Texas brain dead too? Does each state have a different understanding of brain dead? Or is being brain dead a universally standard medical concept?
The situation in Texas is "complicated" by a statute that requires life-sustaining treatment if a woman is pregnant, regardless of any directive or known wishes.
Yes I understand the pregnancy and the fucked up nature of Texas laws. What I don't understand is why the husband can't move her to another state without the fucked up laws.
There is cardiac death (when the heart stops) and brain death (when the brain stops).
k, I guess this makes sense...does one supersede the other?
I guess I am just confused because I feel like there are lots of people who are brain dead who have been kept alive because of the family's wishes. But I must be confusing brain death with other circumstances.
Yes, this is where brain death and persistent vegetative state or coma get confused. Brain death means the brain is dead - there is no activity at all. There is no possible recovery from this and it is a legal definition of death.
A persistent vegetative state means there is minimal, but some, brain activity. There are documented cases of people recovering from this, though many (most) do not and many people do not wish to be kept alive in such a state.
ETA: I don't think one supersedes the other - they're just two different definitions of death.
Also, cardiac death will inevitably lead to brain death because the heart will stop pumping blood to the brain, causing it to die (assuming no artificial intervention).
k, I guess this makes sense...does one supersede the other?
I guess I am just confused because I feel like there are lots of people who are brain dead who have been kept alive because of the family's wishes. But I must be confusing brain death with other circumstances.
Yes, this is where brain death and persistent vegetative state or coma get confused. Brain death means the brain is dead - there is no activity at all. There is no possible recovery from this and it is a legal definition of death.
A persistent vegetative state means there is minimal, but some, brain activity. There are documented cases of people recovering from this, though many (most) do not and many people do not wish to be kept alive in such a state.
Ok, that must be where I am getting messed up.
In this case, where she is brain dead, but has been kept alive, can her organs be used at all?
What qualifies a body to be alive: an active brain or a heart that is pumping blood? I ask because MOST scenarios stating time of death (from my med degree from Grey's Anatomy University with an undergrad from E.R. College) involve when a pulse is no longer present because the heart has stopped beating. I realize in this case it is machines that are keeping the heart beating by ventilating the lungs but I still don't get how she is any less alive than many other patients who require machines to ventilate. Or is their brain functioning at a different level in all of those cases?
There may still be brain stem activity that isn't enough to sustain effective heart or ventilation, or its so taxing on the body that we use machines to allow the body the chance to heal.
That's why, as I said above, there are other tests like pupillary reaction, reaction to painful stimulus, various other reflexes. Like someone in a PVS may occasionally squeeze their fingers in response to a noise. Families take that as a sign the pt is responding, but really it may just be reflex. That wouldn't happen in brain death.