ESF for PLUS loans: "The maximum loan amount is the student’s cost of attendance (determined by the school) minus any other financial aid received." I think cost of attendance included more than tuition and cost of books though.
ESFkadams767 I think the limit was based on cost of tuition (like 110% tuition cost) not an actual set dollar amount.
I have never heard this before. Everything online says there's an annual borrowing limit. For example, this says that grad students can borrow $20,500 a year.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember $18,000 or $18,500 from law school (2004-07), so that sounds about right. There were also caps on subsidized loans ($8,000 or $8500 ish?) and the remaining $10k or so each year was unsubsidized.
I had a PLUS loan my 3rd year though, instead of private that was a terrible deal. 8.5% interest for the privilege. I've since paid it off, but why couldn't I have just done private? They sold it to us like more federal loans were a great thing, but I'm pretty sure I'd have been better off seeking out private loans for that amount.
ESF for PLUS loans: "The maximum loan amount is the student’s cost of attendance (determined by the school) minus any other financial aid received." I think cost of attendance included more than tuition and cost of books though.
Thanks. I didn't realize this was a federal program. With the exception of $10k my first year, I only took out Stafford loans for law school, and I have no idea what kind of loan that $10k is, but it is not consolidated with my Stafford loans, so I assumed it was private. Maybe it is not.
The only loans eligible for forgivenss are federal loans whether they are for grad school or undergrad.
I think you cna use IBR for private loans, but I am not entirely sure.
I am not being snarky, this is a serious questions. I thought there was a cap on the amount of federal loans you could take out? How did you end up with $200k in federal loans only? I remember having to get a private loan for one of my years because of this.
Grad Plus loans permit you to take out more than undergrad loans allow. I can not 100% remember all the details but technically there is no limit to the amount of loans you can take out. You are permitted to take the full cost of attendance, I think the school sets this. So it is tuition + COL expenses. I think the school sets this amount, which for me was something like 56K a year or so? I can't really remember. Then that plus interest on the unsubsidized loans = 197K.
I think this option happened in 2009 so a few of my fellow classmates didn't know about it yet and have private loans too. I was lucky to have a "good" financial aid adviser who guided me towards all federal loans.
Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out how much filing separately costs you? I am guessing you don't lose out on much because at your income a lot of the deductions phase out anyway.
I won't argue one way or another if it is a good program but I think it is wrong to change it suddenly on people who joined the gov't when the program was available.
We pay 2-3K more in taxes by filing separate. This was prior to buying a house, I am not sure how that will impact us. Although our house is below the limit for filing separate so I think we should be okay. I save something like 20K in SL payments by filing separate.
Susie - Plus loans are a good deal if you have forgiveness. If I had gotten 100K or so in private loans they wouldn't be forgiven, so even with 8% it was worth it IMO.
I am not being snarky, this is a serious questions. I thought there was a cap on the amount of federal loans you could take out? How did you end up with $200k in federal loans only? I remember having to get a private loan for one of my years because of this.
Grad Plus loans permit you to take out more than undergrad loans allow. I can not 100% remember all the details but technically there is no limit to the amount of loans you can take out. You are permitted to take the full cost of attendance, I think the school sets this. So it is tuition + COL expenses. I think the school sets this amount, which for me was something like 56K a year or so? I can't really remember. Then that plus interest on the unsubsidized loans = 197K.
I think this option happened in 2009 so a few of my fellow classmates didn't know about it yet and have private loans too. I was lucky to have a "good" financial aid adviser who guided me towards all federal loans.
Ah, this explains why the rest of us are so confused.
No, I took the full amount of federal stafford loans every semester, and it was a mix of subsidized and unsubsidized. I just needed private loans my first year because I worked fewer hours. (I did law school at night, and held a full time job in the 2nd-4th years, hence not needing more than stafford loans to finance it.)
I totally agree that the cost of education is ridiculous and there has been a big change in cost since I started college in the late 90's and frankly i wonder how we'll ever afford our children's college tuition costs. On the other hand though, I'm sort of tired of the gripe about law school or medical school being so expensive. It's not like people were forced to go to med school or law school. Also, I thought most poeple think about the cost of college when deciding where to go? I know I did for undergrad and part of my decision about grad school vs. med school was the money-so I went the phd route rather than the MD route.
Overall I guess I'm in the same camp as bird girl
Oh I agree with you, and I think the reason the debate here tends to be about the more expensive degrees is because there are a lot of us with those insane loans, and haven't you heard that lawyers love talking about being lawyers and their loans?
That said, there are incredibly important policy considerations relating to the cost of law school that always get lost in these discussions. Plenty of low and middle income Americans need lawyers. Layoffs and restructuring are increasingly common, and with them, come separation agreements. Ordinary people are getting hit with identity theft, sleazy debt collectors, and erroneous records on their credit reports at new and alarming rates. Fighting over medical bills can be a full time job. Then add in things like car accidents, family law matters, insurance problems, wills, and other more routine legal needs. The problem is there are few lawyers that can serve people with these needs. Public service loan forgiveness doesn't apply to most of these jobs, and when your debt payments are upwards of $1000 a month, it's pretty hard to make ends meet working for a price that the middle/low income Americans can afford to pay. At $40k a year, law school graduates will exit law entirely for a much less stressful job that pays the same.
As debt loads increase, law graduates can't afford to represent regular people anymore. As state legislatures pass insurance company-backed damages caps on tort lawsuits and other "tort reform" measures, the lawyers operating on contingency are finding that (1) lawsuits are becoming riskier and harder to prove, and (2) their pay day is going to be smaller. The ones that are sticking it out are raising the contigency cut, which was traditionally 33% percent for years, whereas now 40-50% is the norm. Even with that larger cut, they are making less, and so are the victims. It's simply not economically feasible to make money representing regular people anymore.
I'm sure many people are sitting here rolling their eyes, all boo hoo the lawyers and their "frivilous" lawsuits.
Well, guess what. We are on a fast track to a world where only the rich have lawyers. We are nearly already there, and if something is not done to curb the cost of law school, we will be there. Corporations know it's becoming less and less economically feasible to represent those who would hold them accountable, and they are exploiting that and pushing it to its absolute brink. The Chamber of Commerce exists to strip every American of their right to sue any company for any reason at all, and as more and more lawyers are being forced out of the fight against them, they are succeeding. As someone who spends a good deal of my time analyzing large corporation contracts on behalf of regular people, I will say that corporations are becoming increasingly emboldened in drafting one-sided, oppressive contracts, and every year, the Supreme Court and legislatures everywhere give them more and more leeway to do so.
So yeah, I will scream from the roof top about law school loans every single day. Because it's creating a horrifying situation in this country.
I think the argument you present here should be screamed from the rooftops. I've not read this particular argument here before and it's eye opening.
Grad Plus loans permit you to take out more than undergrad loans allow. I can not 100% remember all the details but technically there is no limit to the amount of loans you can take out. You are permitted to take the full cost of attendance, I think the school sets this. So it is tuition + COL expenses. I think the school sets this amount, which for me was something like 56K a year or so? I can't really remember. Then that plus interest on the unsubsidized loans = 197K.
I think this option happened in 2009 so a few of my fellow classmates didn't know about it yet and have private loans too. I was lucky to have a "good" financial aid adviser who guided me towards all federal loans.
Ah, this explains why the rest of us are so confused.
Yes, thank you. I graduated in 2007. I knew this was not how it worked when I was in school. At that time, my private loan interest rates were a lot higher than federal and it sucked to take them.
Susie - Plus loans are a good deal if you have forgiveness. If I had gotten 100K or so in private loans they wouldn't be forgiven, so even with 8% it was worth it IMO.
That's a pretty big damn "if." I said, and I emphasize,
"I've since paid it off, but why couldn't I have just done private? They sold it to us like more federal loans were a great thing, but I'm pretty sure I'd have been better off seeking out private loans for that amount."
How can you not understand that not everyone enjoys the same happy reality of interest rate not mattering that you do? Or that a financial aid office pushing 8.5% federal loans isn't objectively good just because it works for you?
Post by karinothing on Mar 7, 2014 20:44:42 GMT -5
I did not mean to be insulting. I understand that. Despite your use of I apparently I was being ignorant and applied it a general situation of why federal loans with higher interest rates aren't horrible just because their interest rate is higher (yes I realize this is not all people). I am sorry that you got screwed with your loans. I got screwed in other ways of life if that makes you happy.
I got screwed in other ways of life if that makes you happy.
Why would it? It'd just be nice if you were a little less cavalier about something that's a pretty fucking great deal that many of the rest of us don't get to avail ourselves of.
I got screwed in other ways of life if that makes you happy.
Why would it? It'd just be nice if you were a little less cavalier about something that's a pretty fucking great deal that many of the rest of us don't get to avail ourselves of.
I wasn't trying to be cavalier. I misunderstood what you were saying. I never said it wasn't a great deal and I am not lucky to have it. I THOUGHT you were saying that the interest rates outweighed other properties of federal loans. I apologized for misunderstanding what you were saying. I am sorry if that was hurtful I never had that intention.
I believe i started this whole post because I had a panic attack about the idea of it going away so obviously I understand it is a big deal.
I totally agree that the cost of education is ridiculous and there has been a big change in cost since I started college in the late 90's and frankly i wonder how we'll ever afford our children's college tuition costs. On the other hand though, I'm sort of tired of the gripe about law school or medical school being so expensive. It's not like people were forced to go to med school or law school. Also, I thought most poeple think about the cost of college when deciding where to go? I know I did for undergrad and part of my decision about grad school vs. med school was the money-so I went the phd route rather than the MD route.
Overall I guess I'm in the same camp as bird girl
Yea, fuck those people who dreamed of becoming a doctor and were not rich.
I love my job and am grateful I was able to go. 270k in loans out of school and not eligible for IBR. Have worked in community psychiatry with the homeless for over 10 years. Going to med school today you would double the amount I would owe and increase my interest rate by an insane amount. Are you really judging me?
I think the argument you present here should be screamed from the rooftops. I've not read this particular argument here before and it's eye opening.
The best $1000 of my law school debt was a 1 credit class taught by Ralph Nader called "Corporate Power over the Consumer."
I will be a true believer for life.
It's really shocking. I know this is really just a side topic of this thread.
Same goes for engagement in the civic process. (but, in that case, there are actually opportunities that people don't take advantage of... so, it's kind of a shared fault...)
The PSLF program has always frustrated me, because it's very "haves and have nots." It's really amazing for some people like Kari. But there are plenty of other people who need it just as badly who can't take advantage of it for a variety of reasons, and that has always bothered me. Not to be all "poor us," but we started out $280k or so in the education hole, and Calvin's a salary-frozen government employee. It's kind of a bummer that we have to pay all that back, but not everyone does.
It was even worse when Calvin was still in private practice. When he left private practice to go to the government he actually got a big pay jump ($49k to start, what what!) in addition to better benefits. But when he was doing family law for $35k/year, and we were desperately broke and needed it the most, he didn't qualify for any assistance at all, from anywhere. We tried. Not federal, not state, not the school's now-defunct LRAP program, since he was in private practice. Now we get a couple $k a year (with a lifetime cap of $20k or so) from a state program. It's nice now, but I'd have given my right arm for him to have gotten anything back then.
It has always seemed to me that PSLF and other piecemeal programs are a very partial solution to the cost of education, and mostly miss the point. So I'm in favor of reform, just not necessarily as proposed!
I agree completely. Especially given that many government jobs are desirable to many, many exceptionally qualified graduates. There are certain government jobs I'd never get because they are too competitive. It's frustrating to me that tax dollars are used to subsidize benefits for those workers' loans to create incentives to work for the government. Incentives aren't needed, people want to work there.
Like you, I agree that it's amazing for some people. But it's a terrible public policy, as it doesn't help many of the people who need it most -- and that includes not just the borrowers, but people who need services offered by these trained professionals coming out of expensive programs, such as the low to middle income Americans who need affordable legal services from competent attorneys.
TBF (and I am only on this page so forgive me if this was already said), this program is not just for government work. Educators (public and 501(c)3 eligible private schools), nonprofits etc can lure people with this...I do think it should be expanded, but it is not just for gov work.
Yea, fuck those people who dreamed of becoming a doctor and were not rich.
I love my job and am grateful I was able to go. 270k in loans out of school and not eligible for IBR. Have worked in community psychiatry with the homeless for over 10 years. Going to med school today you would double the amount I would owe and increase my interest rate by an insane amount. Are you really judging me?
Median $168,000 (↑5%) $190,000 (↑0%) $175,000 (↑3%)
Education Debt of: Public Private All
Graduates with Education Debt 87% 84% 86%
$100,000 or more 79% 79% 79%
$150,000 or more 62% 66% 63%
$200,000 or more 34%48% 40%
$250,000 or more 14%27% 19%
$300,000 or more 5% 11% 7%
I thought it was a little low though.
It seems low but a lot of rich students go to medical school. The median attendance cost is 286K for 4 years. That makes more sense. I doubt they add all of the costs of attendance, though.
I still don't qualify for IBR even without my husband's salary. I played with the numbers and I would qualify if I owed my entire debt and was single.
I understand they are grad loans. I thought there was a limit, still. My one year of law school, I had to take a private loan because it was my understanding there was a limit on my federal loans. Apparently that was incorrect?
No, I think you're correct. Or at least, that was the case when I was in law school -- I could take something like $18,000 a year in federal loans, but for the rest (meaning, most of it) I had to get private loans.
Grad PLUS (still going through so, again, sorry for a dup if it is), but they are often unsubsidized. You can easily get to at least $160k. More for med school and probably law, though I don't recall.
The only loans eligible for forgivenss are federal loans whether they are for grad school or undergrad.
I think you cna use IBR for private loans, but I am not entirely sure.
I am not being snarky, this is a serious questions. I thought there was a cap on the amount of federal loans you could take out? How did you end up with $200k in federal loans only? I remember having to get a private loan for one of my years because of this.
Grad Plus loans are also federal loans.
So for med school at least, I think I'll have close to or right at 200k in federal loans, no private loans at all.
My first three years of med school I was married, so I essentially only took out money for tuition and educational expenses (laptop, books, etc) and will still be close to 200k. My friends who had to take out money for rent and living expenses will most likely be a good amount over 200k as our tuition was 45k my first year and has gone up since then.