It's not that I want everyone to think like me. But there are certain issues that I would end a relationship over because it is that important to me. Sure, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but that doesn't mean that I need to be around to hear that opinion or encourage that opinion in any way. I started the whole "hill to die on" thread on another board with that thought in mind.
And I choose to stay away from some people for their opinions as well. What bothers me is when there is a need to confront people or belittle them for their opinions. I see it every day on this board.
When an "opinion" is downright offensive, I don't think it's necessary to tiptoe around the issue.
I understand a lot of people disagree with that idea. I would like to think we can overcome our own need to be right to see that there are other ideas in the world. Hence why I would probably die on that hill because mot people can't do that.
By that logic, then wouldn't you support a person's opinion that another person is an idiot?
I'll bet one million GBCN dollars that you've never seen a child die from a preventable disease.
How do you feel about the 'valid opinions' of Hitler? Slave owners? Child molesters? Murderers?
The problem with opinions is that they don't usually come in isolation. Opinions = actions. I don't actually care too much about other's opinions, but I do care about how their resulting actions affect the rest of us. If you don't want to vaccinate, that's fine, but don't expose yourself to the rest of the community. Stay home forever, or move to a deserted island with all the other non-vaxers. If you think gay marriage and abortion are evil, that's fine, but don't try to force that opinion on everyone else through legislation. You can own a gun, but you can't go around shooting people for sport.
There are plenty of valid (even conflicting) opinions, but there's also a lot of fuckery.
This is semi-kid related, but I feel very, very strongly about abortion rights. Last night the baby was kicking me in the ribs so hard that I burst into tears (okay, to be fair a lot of things make me burst into tears at the moment), and I can't imagine forcing a woman to go through pregnancy against her will. I try to avoid talking about the issue with people I suspect are pro-life because I have a hard time discussing the issue without losing my shit.
I understand a lot of people disagree with that idea. I would like to think we can overcome our own need to be right to see that there are other ideas in the world. Hence why I would probably die on that hill because mot people can't do that.
By that logic, then wouldn't you support a person's opinion that another person is an idiot?
I'll bet one million GBCN dollars that you've never seen a child die from a preventable disease.
How do you feel about the 'valid opinions' of Hitler? Slave owners? Child molesters? Murderers?
The problem with opinions is that they don't usually come in isolation. Opinions = actions. I don't actually care too much about other's opinions, but I do care about how their resulting actions affect the rest of us. If you don't want to vaccinate, that's fine, but don't expose yourself to the rest of the community. Stay home forever, or move to a deserted island with all the other non-vaxers. If you think gay marriage and abortion are evil, that's fine, but don't try to force that opinion on everyone else through legislation. You can own a gun, but you can't go around shooting people for sport.
There are plenty of valid (even conflicting) opinions, but there's also a lot of fuckery.
I actually agree with most of what you said. I do not own a gun but am pro-gun ownership. I am pro-choice but could absolutely never have an abortion. So, no I don't think opinions automatically equal actions. The people that "push" their opinions on others come from both sides of an argument. Pushing the thought that abortion is fine on a person who believes it isn't is really the same thing as a Christian saying that it is wrong. Neither side is really "right." Believing that your opinion is the only sensible and logical one and anyone who doesn't think the way you do is wrong or stupid is really a problem. I won't tell what my political affiliation is but I watch Fox News and Msnbc. I watch both political national conventions. I find it is always interesting to hear both sides of a debate with an open mind. It wasn't the crazies on both sides I was referring too. There is "fuckery" on both sides of most opinions.
And I choose to stay away from some people for their opinions as well. What bothers me is when there is a need to confront people or belittle them for their opinions. I see it every day on this board.
When an "opinion" is downright offensive, I don't think it's necessary to tiptoe around the issue.
That's the thing though. A conservative Christian probably finds some opinions to be downright offensive. Where do we decide who is stupid or who is wrong?
When an "opinion" is downright offensive, I don't think it's necessary to tiptoe around the issue.
That's the thing though. A conservative Christian probably finds some opinions to be downright offensive. Where do we decide who is stupid or who is wrong?
That's the thing though. A conservative Christian probably finds some opinions to be downright offensive. Where do we decide who is stupid or who is wrong?
When they are denying me my basic human rights?
But see that can even be up for debate depending on what your personal beliefs are. We may want to negate all religious beliefs from an argument but we can't. It is a reality that some people's beliefs are going to keep them from being able to see your beliefs on abortion or gay marriage, etc. This is human nature. We can't change that. As soon as I understood that I was able to get less angry about issues.
There is a lot of heinous propaganda, though, that is spread under the guise of opinions and debate, particularly in North American media. Not all issues have multiple sides, and not all topics require debate. Something that has been scientifically proven, for example, is no longer up for debate. I think there is entirely too much tiptoeing around respect for people's opinions. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion may be entirely wrong. If you tell me 'I personally believe that the sun revolves around the earth,' then no, I don't have to respect your opinion, because your opinion is wrong.
But see that can even be up for debate depending on what your personal beliefs are. We may want to negate all religious beliefs from an argument but we can't. It is a reality that some people's beliefs are going to keep them from being able to see your beliefs on abortion or gay marriage, etc. This is human nature. We can't change that. As soon as I understood that I was able to get less angry about issues.
I have a lot to say here, and hopefully I'll remember to come back. For now though, I'm on my way back to work (ending my lovely pregnant lady nap) because some lady is of the OPINION that it's within her rights to beat the ever-loving shit out of her child. I'm going to go tell her that her opinion is fucking wrong. WRONG.
There is a lot of heinous propaganda, though, that is spread under the guise of opinions and debate, particularly in North American media. Not all issues have multiple sides, and not all topics require debate. Something that has been scientifically proven, for example, is no longer up for debate. I think there is entirely too much tiptoeing around respect for people's opinions. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion may be entirely wrong. If you tell me 'I personally believe that the sun revolves around the earth,' then no, I don't have to respect your opinion, because your opinion is wrong.
See this is why it is my hill to die on. No one wants to admit that just maybe we need to stop arguing about things and calling people names or thinking less of people. If the Duggars want to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, let them. If they want to go to a museum about that, let them. You will never win an argument with them about their beliefs. Walk away...don't belittle them.
But see that can even be up for debate depending on what your personal beliefs are. We may want to negate all religious beliefs from an argument but we can't. It is a reality that some people's beliefs are going to keep them from being able to see your beliefs on abortion or gay marriage, etc. This is human nature. We can't change that. As soon as I understood that I was able to get less angry about issues.
I have a lot to say here, and hopefully I'll remember to come back. For now though, I'm on my way back to work (ending my lovely pregnant lady nap) because some lady is of the OPINION that it's within her rights to beat the ever-loving shit out of her child. I'm going to go tell her that her opinion is fucking wrong. WRONG.
And this is the overly emotional thing I am talking about. There are some people that need to make everything emotional. I have seen it happen lots of times on this board and is happening now. Obviously I am being too rational and don't mean that type of opinion. but, if you want to believe that then you are doing exactly what I am most annoyed by. You are accusing me of thinking beating children is Ok because you believe in corporal punishment. You must see a lot in your job then. I take that into account when you think I would respect a mom beating her child. That is just nasty to even accuse me of.
I knew when I wrote what my hill to die on was I would get this type o reaction. I have lurked on here long enough to know exactly what was going to happen. Amusing that it is exactly what happened. I gave an opinion and got belittled for it.
I have a lot to say here, and hopefully I'll remember to come back. For now though, I'm on my way back to work (ending my lovely pregnant lady nap) because some lady is of the OPINION that it's within her rights to beat the ever-loving shit out of her child. I'm going to go tell her that her opinion is fucking wrong. WRONG.
You are accusing me of thinking beating children is Ok
You are accusing me of thinking beating children is Ok
Where did you see that?
Did you read the whole thing? Obviously if I respect people's opinions then I also respect people whose opinion includes beating their children. That is how I took it...you?
And this is the overly emotional thing I am talking about. There are some people that need to make everything emotional. I have seen it happen lots of times on this board and is happening now. Obviously I am being too rational and don't mean that type of opinion. but, if you want to believe that then you are doing exactly what I am most annoyed by. You are accusing me of thinking beating children is Ok because you believe in corporal punishment. You must see a lot in your job then. I take that into account when you think I would respect a mom beating her child. That is just nasty to even accuse me of.
OK, well I was being dramatic just for show, but that is truly how I spent my evening.
Your response is exactly my point though. You do have a line that can be crossed, and that you don't actually believe that every opinion is a valid one. I guarantee you that there are many, many (seriously, a ton of) people who do think that their child = their choice, and are of the opinion that beating, raping, or handing off their children for others to do as they will is perfectly OK. Obviously, as you would say, any rational person would think that's crazy, but there are large groups of people who would disagree with you. You would say that opinion is not valid, right? (and I would definitely agree)
So, the question is, why is that your line? Everyone has a continuum of what's ok and not ok. People may rank them differently, and draw the line in different places, but to say that ANY opinion is a valid opinion is obviously asinine. You have a very visceral reaction to being accused of accepting that the opinion that child abuse is ok, but what if you replace child abuse with abortion rights/gay marriage/vaccines/etc? Someone else may have the same visceral reaction, and believe whole-heartedly that that is a line that just shouldn't be crossed. If you cannot accept someone else's view that child abuse is ok, then why should anyone else have to accept that limiting women's rights is ok? For many people, both of these things are on the side of the line that shouldn't be crossed.
Even throughout history, this has changed. 75 years ago, people beat their children without much question. If you had this reaction then, they would have thought you were crazy and should mind your own business. Had you tried to free slaves in early America, you could have been put to death. The beautiful thing about moving forward is that people should continue to question standards, laws, and acceptance. The gay marriage fight will be the new inter-racial marriage fight, and 50 years from now a lot of people will look really dumb(er).
There is a lot of heinous propaganda, though, that is spread under the guise of opinions and debate, particularly in North American media. Not all issues have multiple sides, and not all topics require debate. Something that has been scientifically proven, for example, is no longer up for debate. I think there is entirely too much tiptoeing around respect for people's opinions. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion may be entirely wrong. If you tell me 'I personally believe that the sun revolves around the earth,' then no, I don't have to respect your opinion, because your opinion is wrong.
See this is why it is my hill to die on. No one wants to admit that just maybe we need to stop arguing about things and calling people names or thinking less of people. If the Duggars want to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, let them. If they want to go to a museum about that, let them. You will never win an argument with them about their beliefs. Walk away...don't belittle them.
I see what you're trying to get at, and I agree that sometimes arguing with an individual who chooses belief over facts is fairly pointless, but this is not what I was saying. While I have neither the time nor the inclination to actively belittle people like the Duggars, I do have a major problem when media, government and eduction are allowed to present opinions as facts. These are major sources of authority in society. Public opinion should not be shaped, laws should not be made, nor curriculums taught based on respect for opinions if those opinions are wrong. I don't live in the US, but an example there might be the uber right wing Fox News, which brazenly presents lies as truths and gets away with it because they claim it's 'true to them'. Just because someone believes something is true does not actually MAKE it true. An example in the UK would be the Daily Mail and its constant, falsified 'statistics' about immigrants. Schools that are forced to teach creationism as 'the other side of the story' when there is no other side to evolution... etc.
I agree with you that we should all be more open to discussing new ideas, and if someone floats me a new theory on economic stability, backed with solid evidence, I'll definitely hear them out. But when someone lies to me and tries to pass it off as fact, I don't have to respect their point of view. This doesn't mean I call them names, it simply means I have zero respect for the argument they've put forward.