Can we talk IEP meetings?

[KB]

We have DS's IEP next week. He has not met his goals for this year (5 goals, all speech related) and likely will not before the end of the year. We would like to add goals (mostly around social skills) and request additional services ie: ABA and OT. I know the school offers OT but I'm not sure if they do any ABA. His teacher/the school isn't going to offer this up. Any suggestions on how to go about finding out the info and getting them to include it?

My anxiety is through the roof about this. In our last IEP meeting we had no idea what we were doing and DS suffered for it. I don't want that to happen again. 

[litebright]

Do you have any private therapists that you're working with who could attend the meeting with you and back you up?

That was one of the huge helps for me in our first couple of IEP meetings, until we really got our feet wet and had a good sense that we could deal with the district effectively ourselves and it wasn't going to be a huge battle. We had an SLP/Floortime therapist that we loved and trusted, and we asked her to read whatever info we got ahead of time, come to the meeting, help us suggest goals, read the draft IEP and give us input before we signed, etc.

I think it also helped us because it left the IEP team members with the impression that we were proactive, relatively savvy parents (which I think we are) and so it set a certain level of respect. It also built our confidence and we handled the last IEP meeting on our own and felt we were effective; but we know we could always call on this therapist or someone else if we felt we needed backup or advice on how to make a particular argument.

[auntie]

How old is you son? What educational/medical dxs does he have? What kind of setting is in?

One thing you can do is to submit a list of "parental concerns" to the rest of the team prior to the actual drafting of the IEP meeting. You are a member of the IEP team. When I did this, I used a bullet pointed list with my special "educational" concern and included a brief example of the issue from the previous couple of months. Bonus points if you can include a quote from a teacher note, email or convo to make your point.

How were the speech goals missed? Were they unrealistic or were they ineffectively serviced? This isn't necessarily a "fault" thing; sometimes schools can't anticipate how a student will respond to interventions. What kinds of goals are they?

Why do you see OT as a need? Is there a sensory issue that keeps him from being engaged or is this more of a fine motor skills issue? Are you open to intervention? Assistive technologies? Or do you want accommodations?

ABA isn't usually something "pushed in" to a mainstream class. Given the hours needed to effectively deliver ABA, in many districts this is an educational setting- effectively a self contained special education setting. Your district may argue that this is not LRE for your DS and would violate his right to FAPE in the LRE. Age can play into this somewhat. Kindie and primary grade kids can sometimes split their day between an ABA classroom and a mainstream or integrated one; this is less doable as kids get older.

[twinsinmd]

I agree with a lot of what Auntie says. There are many times kids on my caseload didn't meet all of their goals-and I'm okay with that as long as they were making significant progress (which they almost always were).

What is his dx? What testing has been done? If you want OT and social skills on the IEP-they need to be identified using testing, AND have an educational impact.

Did you get a draft of the IEP yet?

[auntie]

May 1, 2014 7:35:52 GMT -5 mryrcn said:

What type of school is your child in? ABA is typically provided by medical sources and not education sources. The school can provide OT though. You should definitely walk in there with a list of what you would like them to provide and what his new goals should be. They can not force you to sign an IEP that you do not agree with. Also remember an IEP can always be amended/updated.

A lot of school districts have full-on ABA classroom available to their students. Often these are reserved for the most profoundly impacted students with ASD. I find school districts are not always transparent in offering information to parents about all potential placements available.  My district offers ABA from preschool through age 22 through the County IU. 

[auntie]

May 1, 2014 8:19:03 GMT -5 mryrcn said:

May 1, 2014 8:14:01 GMT -5 auntie said:

A lot of school districts have full-on ABA classroom available to their students. Often these are reserved for the most profoundly impacted students with ASD. I find school districts are not always transparent in offering information to parents about all potential placements available.  My district offers ABA from preschool through age 22 through the County IU. 

That's awesome.  Here you do not get those services unless it's through a private school.  

In communities where this is the case, you can always advocate for the IEP to place the child in the private school on the district's dime. This can be a hard sell and may require an advocate or even an attorney- but I know people who have done this.

[craftyone]

My question is what do you want out of the IEP meeting? I know for my child they generally do the changes before the actual IEP, then review it at the meeting. They make slight changes (ie wording, combining etc). They generally have decided at that point what they plan on doing.

Have you sat down with the teacher to go over concerns? What they are thinking of doing before the meeting? You can always put in your concerns, ask questions, explain options, then request another IEP meeting.

For me, I've had to research options that the school doesn't offer. In mine, they don't do ABA but their are private schools here that do. I know some of the surrounding school districts send some students to private ABA schools out of their funding, but since our county is more well off and has autism based classrooms often do not. I know in the past a fellow SN parent has had to get an SE advocate involved.

I know for me my child wasn't really progressing, they just "changed" the goals to basically include the same stuff. I felt at this point it was better to pull him out and put him in a private school until my insurance runs out then I will re-evaluate. I think in my school district they try to do the least possible and still adhere to the standards they are required to do. :/

[KB]

May 1, 2014 6:40:11 GMT -5 auntie said:

How old is you son? What educational/medical dxs does he have? What kind of setting is in?
He's 3.5, educational and medical diagnosis of HFA, Sped preschool 5 days a week with 2 30 minute pull outs for speech.

One thing you can do is to submit a list of "parental concerns" to the rest of the team prior to the actual drafting of the IEP meeting. You are a member of the IEP team. When I did this, I used a bullet pointed list with my special "educational" concern and included a brief example of the issue from the previous couple of months. Bonus points if you can include a quote from a teacher note, email or convo to make your point.
This is an excellent idea. I'm guessing we aren't going to get the draft IEP until the day before the meeting since the teacher was still asking me the parental input questions this morning. 

How were the speech goals missed? Were they unrealistic or were they ineffectively serviced? This isn't necessarily a "fault" thing; sometimes schools can't anticipate how a student will respond to interventions. What kinds of goals are they?
The teacher claims they were missed because they spent 3 months of the year getting him to potty train. There wasn't enough time in the day to focus on his goals and potty train as well. Goals are things like "follow 3 step directions with no prompts 80% of the time." He will follow all of the directions but needs several prompts to do so. 

Why do you see OT as a need? Is there a sensory issue that keeps him from being engaged or is this more of a fine motor skills issue? Are you open to intervention? Assistive technologies? Or do you want accommodations?
OT is definitely a sensory issue. He is a seeker and isn't always aware of his body in the space. He is getting really good at letting the teacher know when he needs a break or some sort of activity but the day can go south quickly without it. The teacher seems to think it isn't causing enough of an issue to prevent him from accessing the education in the classroom and told me she doesn't think he will qualify for OT. I still want him evaluated. 

ABA isn't usually something "pushed in" to a mainstream class. Given the hours needed to effectively deliver ABA, in many districts this is an educational setting- effectively a self contained special education setting. Your district may argue that this is not LRE for your DS and would violate his right to FAPE in the LRE. Age can play into this somewhat. Kindie and primary grade kids can sometimes split their day between an ABA classroom and a mainstream or integrated one; this is less doable as kids get older.
His teacher has mentioned she thinks he would benefit from reverse inclusion. Our county offers this but not at our home school. He watches and mimics the behaviors he sees in other kids. She seems to think NT peer models would help. The main issue is compliance. When he has difficulty with a transition he will tantrum and he is very disruptive when that happens. His FBA says the behavior never happens with one on one interaction or with adults but other kids getting upset, loud, etc. can be a trigger. This is where I was thinking ABA could help. He currently gets 15 hours a week of private ABA at his daycare and it is really helping him to engage the other kids and play with them rather than parallel play. He has yet to show any of the tantrum behaviors at daycare or with his ABA therapist. It seems limited to preschool. 

[KB]

May 1, 2014 8:46:22 GMT -5 craftyone said:

My question is what do you want out of the IEP meeting? I know for my child they generally do the changes before the actual IEP, then review it at the meeting. They make slight changes (ie wording, combining etc). They generally have decided at that point what they plan on doing.
This is what happened at our first IEP last year. We asked for things (social skills goals, OT eval) and they blew us off, nicely of course. We had no clue what we were doing and didn't realize until after the fact that we got snowed. Now that we're a year in and we know the real deal, we won;t make that mistake again. 

Have you sat down with the teacher to go over concerns? What they are thinking of doing before the meeting? You can always put in your concerns, ask questions, explain options, then request another IEP meeting.
We meet with her monthly. She understands our concerns and has offered some suggestions but has given us the impression that the school is looking to give as little as possible. 

For me, I've had to research options that the school doesn't offer. In mine, they don't do ABA but their are private schools here that do. I know some of the surrounding school districts send some students to private ABA schools out of their funding, but since our county is more well off and has autism based classrooms often do not. I know in the past a fellow SN parent has had to get an SE advocate involved.
We aren't at the advocate point yet. I just want to be more prepared than we were last time. 

I know for me my child wasn't really progressing, they just "changed" the goals to basically include the same stuff. I felt at this point it was better to pull him out and put him in a private school until my insurance runs out then I will re-evaluate. I think in my school district they try to do the least possible and still adhere to the standards they are required to do. :/
That seems to be the case in a lot of situations. We really like his teacher. She is very patient and seems to "get" DS. He adores her and will comply for her before anyone else. The Vice-principal, on the other hand, I am not a huge fan of and he is in charge of Sped at the school. He will definitely try to limit the services we are asking for. 

[hopecounts]

May 1, 2014 8:46:22 GMT -5 craftyone said:

My question is what do you want out of the IEP meeting? I know for my child they generally do the changes before the actual IEP, then review it at the meeting. They make slight changes (ie wording, combining etc). They generally have decided at that point what they plan on doing.

I could be wrong but I think this is a no-no.
As part of the IEP team you are supposed to be an active participant in creating the goals.
For DD's we sat down with the team and a sheet with the various IEP areas and talked through each area and what were some reasonable goals based on where she was and what we wanted to see. The goals were good and she mastered all but her OT one which I will be addressing at our upcoming IEP meeting. 

[KB]

A lot of his issues are compliance. It is the main thing that will stop him from being successful and the thing that ABA is working on the hardest.

[auntie]

May 1, 2014 9:04:53 GMT -5 KB said:

May 1, 2014 6:40:11 GMT -5 auntie said:

How old is you son? What educational/medical dxs does he have? What kind of setting is in?
He's 3.5, educational and medical diagnosis of HFA, Sped preschool 5 days a week with 2 30 minute pull outs for speech.

One thing you can do is to submit a list of "parental concerns" to the rest of the team prior to the actual drafting of the IEP meeting. You are a member of the IEP team. When I did this, I used a bullet pointed list with my special "educational" concern and included a brief example of the issue from the previous couple of months. Bonus points if you can include a quote from a teacher note, email or convo to make your point.
This is an excellent idea. I'm guessing we aren't going to get the draft IEP until the day before the meeting since the teacher was still asking me the parental input questions this morning. 

You don't have to hammer it all out in one meeting. If you don't have the information you need to complete drafting the IEP at the actual meeting, you can reconvene. 

How were the speech goals missed? Were they unrealistic or were they ineffectively serviced? This isn't necessarily a "fault" thing; sometimes schools can't anticipate how a student will respond to interventions. What kinds of goals are they?

The teacher claims they were missed because they spent 3 months of the year getting him to potty train. There wasn't enough time in the day to focus on his goals and potty train as well. Goals are things like "follow 3 step directions with no prompts 80% of the time." He will follow all of the directions but needs several prompts to do so. 

Do they understand why he's not able to follow a 3 step instruction without prompts?

Does he have poor auditory processing/auditory memory?

Is he weak around receptive language?

Is he distracted externally by goings on in the room?

Is he distracted from within by anxiety or obsessive thoughts about a special interest?

Does he realize he's a part of the "class" when instructions are given?

Is he oppositional?

Can he follow a 3 step verbal command without support in any setting?

What about visual prompts?

Why do you see OT as a need? Is there a sensory issue that keeps him from being engaged or is this more of a fine motor skills issue? Are you open to intervention? Assistive technologies? Or do you want accommodations?
OT is definitely a sensory issue. He is a seeker and isn't always aware of his body in the space. He is getting really good at letting the teacher know when he needs a break or some sort of activity but the day can go south quickly without it. The teacher seems to think it isn't causing enough of an issue to prevent him from accessing the education in the classroom and told me she doesn't think he will qualify for OT. I still want him evaluated. 

OT for SPD is tough to get at school age. Usually I find parents are offered accommodations in the form of movement breaks, weighted vests or Sit'n'Fit cushions. Rubber bands strung across chairs/desk legs can provide presioperative feedback as well.

ABA isn't usually something "pushed in" to a mainstream class. Given the hours needed to effectively deliver ABA, in many districts this is an educational setting- effectively a self contained special education setting. Your district may argue that this is not LRE for your DS and would violate his right to FAPE in the LRE. Age can play into this somewhat. Kindie and primary grade kids can sometimes split their day between an ABA classroom and a mainstream or integrated one; this is less doable as kids get older.
His teacher has mentioned she thinks he would benefit from reverse inclusion. Our county offers this but not at our home school. He watches and mimics the behaviors he sees in other kids. She seems to think NT peer models would help.

Do you mean reverse mainstreaming? Where NT peers are included in the self contained classroom as models? Probably not something you can realistically expect long term. Parents of well developing students typically won't give permission for their child to be pullout for this purpose. Given the move toward more and more high stakes testing this is understandable. Plus you child is already accessing NT peers in day care, no?

The main issue is compliance. When he has difficulty with a transition he will tantrum and he is very disruptive when that happens. His FBA says the behavior never happens with one on one interaction or with adults but other kids getting upset, loud, etc. can be a trigger. This is where I was thinking ABA could help.

Would the school be open to giving him a 1:1 para instead of ABA? An aide might help keep his behavior in check and avoid the disruptions. One downside to an ABA or any other self contained setting is that the setting will likely have more chaos and triggers.

He currently gets 15 hours a week of private ABA at his daycare and it is really helping him to engage the other kids and play with them rather than parallel play. He has yet to show any of the tantrum behaviors at daycare or with his ABA therapist. It seems limited to preschool. 

Can you switch to the other school since the program seems to have what you want already in place?

[craftyone]

hopecounts I don't think that the school coming up with the goals and having them set beforehand is not in compliance. I've been to at least 20 IEP meetings between both my sons and this is how they handle it. I can agree/not agree, ask for changes, ask for another meeting. Why would you think this is a no-no? They know how he does at school, what is the benchmarks etc more than me and set goals for review. I can't imagine how long an hour long meeting during school would turn into if I'm sitting in a room while they write up goals. Usually for us, it's 3 different people (teacher, ST, OT) figuring out the goals with evals done prior that. I'd imagine they work on it for hours before the actual IEP parent meeting. The IEP parent meeting usually includes admins, the teacher, ST, OT, and the previous yr teacher, and next year teacher.

[hopecounts]

May 1, 2014 10:35:50 GMT -5 craftyone said:

hopecounts I don't think that the school coming up with the goals and having them set beforehand is not in compliance. I've been to at least 20 IEP meetings between both my sons and this is how they handle it. I can agree/not agree, ask for changes, ask for another meeting. Why would you think this is a no-no? They know how he does at school, what is the benchmarks etc more than me and set goals for review. I can't imagine how long an hour long meeting during school would turn into if I'm sitting in a room while they write up goals. Usually for us, it's 3 different people (teacher, ST, OT) figuring out the goals with evals done prior that. I'd imagine they work on it for hours before the actual IEP parent meeting. The IEP parent meeting usually includes admins, the teacher, ST, OT, and the previous yr teacher, and next year teacher.

I meant it isn't the best way to do it especially starting out when the team doesn't know the child as well.
ours only took about an hour doing it this way (I want to say it was just under an hour iirc)
As we covered each area the relevant person or persons put in their thoughts I put in mine we discussed chose and moved on to the next area. It gave me more leeway to have input and to add my thoughts. I was able to stress the areas where I thought she needed the most help based on being with her 24/7 and what I see from her.
it worked really well for us and the goals were just right, she has accomplished them all except OT and I feel doing it this way better enabled the team to understand her needs and set goals that she could successfully work on.

[marissa]

Our district also does ABA. My youngest son was in an ABA class for 3 years.

[auntie]

May 1, 2014 10:35:50 GMT -5 craftyone said:

hopecounts I don't think that the school coming up with the goals and having them set beforehand is not in compliance. I've been to at least 20 IEP meetings between both my sons and this is how they handle it. I can agree/not agree, ask for changes, ask for another meeting. Why would you think this is a no-no? They know how he does at school, what is the benchmarks etc more than me and set goals for review. I can't imagine how long an hour long meeting during school would turn into if I'm sitting in a room while they write up goals. Usually for us, it's 3 different people (teacher, ST, OT) figuring out the goals with evals done prior that. I'd imagine they work on it for hours before the actual IEP parent meeting. The IEP parent meeting usually includes admins, the teacher, ST, OT, and the previous yr teacher, and next year teacher.

Strictly speaking hopecounts is correct.
The district can propose goals in the form of an "draft" IEP, but they shouldn't arrive at the CSE meeting expecting that they're done and that you'll nod your head and sign whatever is put in front of you. 

www.wrightslaw.com/info/iep.draft.howey.htm

I will agree that there are times when what is proposed is what should carry- for an older child who has minimal ad uncomplicated supports and services for instance. But early on, the documents should be a collaborative effort at best or negotiated compromise at worst. Parents can and should propose their own sets of goals so long as they are comfortable at framing them as an educational need. 

Teachers in my district are well paid- by me- I have no qualms about the time they spend preparing DS's IEP. Most of the goals they use have come from other sources (previously written IEPs for other kiddos) and are cut and pasted into an existing boilerplate with my kid's name. I have no problem breaking an IEP meeting down to individual services as needed. In secondary, I almost always ended up doing the speech portion as a side bar apart from the rest of the group because of the logistics of getting various people in one place at one time. Or district rolled IEPs, DS's was always one of the very last of the spring and people were stretched pretty thin.

[craftyone]

KB How does your school district handle SE at this age? I know for us all the SE kids are lumped together with the ASD children. It really isn't until Kindergarten do they have an Autism classroom. This year, I've realized about 2 months in that my son really hasn't done well with the pre-school program because they just aren't equipped to handle my son. My son needs one-on-one. The ratio at my son's school is 9 kids to 1 teacher + 1 aide. Even with his IEP, they really can't focus on it because they just don't have the resources for 1 on 1. That is why even though they want to move him to Kindergarten next year, I'm pulling him out to an ABA based preschool for the next year (and depending how long insurance pays, his progress 2 years) along with at home ABA hours.

IDK, do you expect him to meet the goals each year? I know it's a goal, but that is something along the lines of expecting your child to get straight A's. They are setting the goals on typical skills children at that age have and they are meeting the goal if they see "some" progress. I guess I'm now jaded, but I think there has to be a balance of a do-able goal. I know my son has a goal of side by side peer play 4 out of 5 occasions. I don't see that happening for a while unless they physically force him to do so, not because he wants to.  KWIM?

Does your ABA therapists confer with your school district?I usually give my ABA therapist my son's IEP goals so they can work it into his private ABA therapy.

I know it's hard. It sucks that we are somewhat stuck with what the schools offer. As long as they meeting requirements that's all they do. They just don't have the resources. I think that's why we seek outside therapy.

[craftyone]

IDK I"m sure my school district is in compliance.I would hope the goals are thought off well beforehand. I do at times get draft IEP's. AT least if I can review them beforehand I can have my thoughts gathered, if I agree/don't agree. I'm also realistic too. I don't think that it not being written on a form, that they are manualling entering the goal at the IEP meeting is going to make that much of a change, or that I can't make a change.
We spend an hour review 4 or 5 goals. There is quite a bit of discussion going on.

I'm also realistic that the schools can't do everything.  My son is in 12 hours a week of one on one therapy by people who have been trained specifically to do ABA therapy.  I jsut don't see how school systems can afford to be able to do that? Yes they are probably pretty capable of handling higher functioning children. Moderate like my son? No.  I think that is why we are seeing more and more states enact legislation that is forcing insurances to pay for ASD therapies.



 

[hopecounts]

May 1, 2014 11:03:36 GMT -5 craftyone said:

IDK, do you expect him to meet the goals each year? I know it's a goal, but that is something along the lines of expecting your child to get straight A's. They are setting the goals on typical skills children at that age have and they are meeting the goal if they see "some" progress. I guess I'm now jaded, but I think there has to be a balance of a do-able goal. I know my son has a goal of side by side peer play 4 out of 5 occasions. I don't see that happening for a while unless they physically force him to do so, not because he wants to.  KWIM?

Mostly yes kids should meet their IEP goals on an annual basis. That's kind of the point.
You are setting goals for improvement and they should be reasonable for the child in question and within reason for the support/therapy structure.
And they should not be based on the skillls of a NT kid but of where the child needs to improve and how to reach the goal of bringing him/her closer to their peers. 
One of DD's this year was using 2-3 word phrases, that is something specific that she didn't have but needed to gain so they worked towards that goal all year and she started using 2 word phrases at school about a month and a half ago, and recently has started adding 3 word phrases.
IEPs are intended to insure the kids are receiving what they need by setting measurable goals that should reasonable for the child to achieve so that forward progress is maintained.
If he can not reach the goal of parallel  play 4 out of 5 occasions then that should be modified into a goal that is achievable for him (parallel play with adult assistance or into a therapy goal to reach a similar social goal) 
Setting goals that are not reasonable or that the child can not attain in a year gives the school to much leeway to let things slide and not ensure that they are meeting his/her needs.

[craftyone]

Yes hopecounts , I agree, but again all the evals, percentiles are based upon NT kids. Maybe because my son is moderately delayed, I'm somewhat jaded as to what I honestly see as what the public schools in my area (and we are the go to school area in my 1 million + city) can do for us. Most schools in this country are strapped for cash. I don't believe that in preschool are going to assign a 1 on 1 aide to help my son without a long drawn out fight. My school district has been sued over an ASD child not progressing and the parents put him in an ASD school. The parents won, but it took 2 years of 50k + /yr tuition out of pocket before they were awarded backpayment and future payment.

My son is progressing, but do I feel like it's the school's doing? No. I think it's all the outside therapy I put him in. I get a weekly report of measurable goals, rather than once every 9 weeks from the school. Yes the school has changed his IEP to reduce goals because he just hasn't progressed like they hope he could achieve. Nor do believe the teachers don't work with him. I think the teachers work dang hard with my son, but I'm realistic. I mean there is a reason why I am putting my child into 1 on 1 "ABA" type of therapy that costs in the tens of thousands a year. And why our state has a mile long waiting list of Medicaid waivers for Medicaid to pay for costs or that our state has mandated private insurance pay for ABA therapy costs until age 6. I just don't think for moderate delays like my son is the school adequate.  I expect more what is "meeting goals" and just don't want to waste precious time wading through school red tape, so I 'm taking my own measures to see that he is progressing such as putting him private ABA at home and preschool. That's my opinion for my school/county/state. If yours works for you, that's great, but I'm not relying on mine.

[KB]

craftyone The Sped classes in preschool are all mixed issues, some medical, some general delays, some ASD. There are ASD only classes for children that need more help. They offer a 1:2 ratio. DS is too high functioning to qualify. It would definitely not be the LRE for him.

I don't think expecting him to hit his IEP goals for the year is like expecting him to get all As. They were designed to be goals he could meet and are based on his abilities, not those of NT peers. It is my understanding that if anything, the goals are designed to be attainable so the school system can meet their numbers. It is not in their best interest for DS not to meet his goals for the year. It will result in me asking for (and probably getting) more services. We are very lucky to have insurance coverage for ABA. Finding a practice that accepted insurance was a whole 'nother ball game. It took us almost a year on the wait list. As far as the mandate, if the plan is self-funded by the employer, they do not have to comply. That is why we left my insurance and went to my husband's plan.

[KB]

auntie

Do they understand why he's not able to follow a 3 step instruction without prompts?
I do not believe so. There is a lot of "he isn't, he doesn't, he can't" but no real "this is why" behind it.

Does he have poor auditory processing/auditory memory?
Yes

Is he weak around receptive language?
Yes

Is he distracted externally by goings on in the room?
No

Is he distracted from within by anxiety or obsessive thoughts about a special interest?
No

Does he realize he's a part of the "class" when instructions are given?
Yes

Is he oppositional?
Yes - his biggest issue by far and his number one barrier to success. He needs to feel like he is in control. Others don't "do it right" thus prompting upset. He is very black and white. Rules = good.

Can he follow a 3 step verbal command without support in any setting?
Yes, home & daycare with therapist

What about visual prompts?
The class uses PECS but they usually aren't needed.


Do you mean reverse mainstreaming? Where NT peers are included in the self contained classroom as models? Probably not something you can realistically expect long term. Parents of well developing students typically won't give permission for their child to be pullout for this purpose. Given the move toward more and more high stakes testing this is understandable. Plus you child is already accessing NT peers in day care, no?
Yes. Our county offers this model. It's 8 kids, 4 NT and 4 Sped. There is 1 teacher and 2 aides.

My main concern in all of this is that they are expecting him to figure out how to self-regulate/meet the goals but are not offering any tools to do so. Right now as a 3 year old the only tool in his toolbox is a hammer. They did an FBA but there was no BIP, making the FBA pretty much useless. We have been working on compliance a lot in ABA and he has tested the therapist but she does not give in. We are starting to see behavior improvements and less "NO! It has to be this way" from him.

[craftyone]

and NT children are supposed to pass STandards of learning tests in my state too. 12 area schools failed here in 2013. I mean how do you think those schools are doing educating SE children if they can not even teach NT. I know we all can say schools are supposed writing measurable goals, and meeting those goals but we as parents are going to be the only ones to question it. What would you do if you said they aren't meeting it? How are you going to prove it? mine will just say sufficient progress. They may change his IEP, Give him better goals but why do you think educational advocates exist? Because the schools do what's 100% in best interest of the children without costs involved?

[auntie]

May 1, 2014 18:35:42 GMT -5 KB said:

auntie

Do they understand why he's not able to follow a 3 step instruction without prompts?
I do not believe so. There is a lot of "he isn't, he doesn't, he can't" but no real "this is why" behind it.

A good FBA should have teased out some of this. DS's psychologist was always able to help us parse the antecendents to DS's behavior when it was a manifestation of his dx. Could his ABA person observe him in school; she might see things that could be done differently.

Does he have poor auditory processing/auditory memory?
Yes
This is pretty much to be expected; all kids have emerging processing well into puberty. CAPD isn't even considered as a dx until closer to 7. Meantime, a multisensory approach might work to get him to comply- a chart with tasks broken down can be useful if there are routine directions he needs to follow. A schedule might help him with transitions.

Is he weak around receptive language?
Yes
This is hard to "fix", but visuals can bridge his gap in receptive language.
Is he distracted externally by goings on in the room?
No

Is he distracted from within by anxiety or obsessive thoughts about a special interest?
No

Does he realize he's a part of the "class" when instructions are given?
Yes
Are you sure? This was one of DS's glitches- he didn't intuit that he was a child/student, so when teachers gave a command he didn't get that it applied to him as well. Some teachers saw this as defiance and would say sarcastically "are you waiting for a personal invitation?" when, in fact, he sort of was. 

Is he oppositional?
Yes - his biggest issue by far and his number one barrier to success. He needs to feel like he is in control. Others don't "do it right" thus prompting upset. He is very black and white. Rules = good.
This behavior is consistent with a child who doesn't realize he's a child. This is why I asked the previous question- does your kid know maintaining control in the class is the teacher's job- not his? A well developing kid gets that it's not remotely appropriate for him to be responsible for the behavior of others. They might be frustrated and even tattle, but they think it's their position to control others. Your son is already the rule police.

The other piece to this is that many black & white thinkers has a finely tuned and enhanced sense of "justice". We live this. Especially as a little kid, DS was very tuned into him getting into trouble when others were, in his opinion, running amok. 

Can he follow a 3 step verbal command without support in any setting?

Yes, home & daycare with therapist
Are you all holding him to the same standard? Is he getting scaffolding? Redirection of some sort? Is the school giving novel commands? Does the teacher give all 3 steps at once, where you and the therapist are giving them one at a time or repeating as needed?

I do think having the therapist observe the classroom might be illuminating. We used to send DS's psychologist in from time to time- he had a much better set of ears and eyes than I possess.

What about visual prompts?
The class uses PECS but they usually aren't needed.
I still think a graphic organizer for the day and cheat sheets for transitions could be useful. Kids are stronger visually- use that to make it easier for him to understand what's expected so he can put all his efforts on compliance. If there are routine spots where he goes to the dark side, a Social Story might help him reframe his tendency to push back and go along with the class.


Do you mean reverse mainstreaming? Where NT peers are included in the self contained classroom as models? Probably not something you can realistically expect long term. Parents of well developing students typically won't give permission for their child to be pullout for this purpose. Given the move toward more and more high stakes testing this is understandable. Plus you child is already accessing NT peers in day care, no?
Yes. Our county offers this model. It's 8 kids, 4 NT and 4 Sped. There is 1 teacher and 2 aides.
Can you access this class or is it reserved, informally, for certain kinds of IEP supports?

My main concern in all of this is that they are expecting him to figure out how to self-regulate/meet the goals but are not offering any tools to do so. Right now as a 3 year old the only tool in his toolbox is a hammer. They did an FBA but there was no BIP, making the FBA pretty much useless. We have been working on compliance a lot in ABA and he has tested the therapist but she does not give in. We are starting to see behavior improvements and less "NO! It has to be this way" from him.

No BIP? WTF? Who did the FBA? This needs to be a person outside of the school who can be unbiased. 

[KB]

May 1, 2014 19:24:18 GMT -5 craftyone said:

and NT children are supposed to pass STandards of learning tests in my state too. 12 area schools failed here in 2013. I mean how do you think those schools are doing educating SE children if they can not even teach NT. I know we all can say schools are supposed writing measurable goals, and meeting those goals but we as parents are going to be the only ones to question it. What would you do if you said they aren't meeting it? How are you going to prove it? mine will just say sufficient progress. They may change his IEP, Give him better goals but why do you think educational advocates exist? Because the schools do what's 100% in best interest of the children without costs involved?

I agree that there is a time and place for advocates and for a lot of families they are very helpful. 

As far as him not meeting goals, they are very clear with monthly home visits and progress reports that he isn't going to meet them this year. His teacher takes data everyday and is transparent with it. I'm not trying to minimize your experience b/c I know getting what you need for your child out of the school can be a challenge but we aren't there. 

Teaching to the test is another topic entirely. He's 3. We have some time before we start worrying about that. 

[KB]

May 2, 2014 5:27:52 GMT -5 auntie said:

May 1, 2014 18:35:42 GMT -5 KB said:

auntie

Do they understand why he's not able to follow a 3 step instruction without prompts?
I do not believe so. There is a lot of "he isn't, he doesn't, he can't" but no real "this is why" behind it.

A good FBA should have teased out some of this. DS's psychologist was always able to help us parse the antecendents to DS's behavior when it was a manifestation of his dx. Could his ABA person observe him in school; she might see things that could be done differently.

DS doesn't have a psychologist. I'm thinking it may be time to look into one. 

Does he have poor auditory processing/auditory memory?
Yes
This is pretty much to be expected; all kids have emerging processing well into puberty. CAPD isn't even considered as a dx until closer to 7. Meantime, a multisensory approach might work to get him to comply- a chart with tasks broken down can be useful if there are routine directions he needs to follow. A schedule might help him with transitions.

Is he weak around receptive language?
Yes
This is hard to "fix", but visuals can bridge his gap in receptive language.
Is he distracted externally by goings on in the room?
No

Is he distracted from within by anxiety or obsessive thoughts about a special interest?
No

Does he realize he's a part of the "class" when instructions are given?
Yes
Are you sure? This was one of DS's glitches- he didn't intuit that he was a child/student, so when teachers gave a command he didn't get that it applied to him as well. Some teachers saw this as defiance and would say sarcastically "are you waiting for a personal invitation?" when, in fact, he sort of was. 

Hmmm....I hadn't thought of this. He definitely thinks he is a little adult. 

Is he oppositional?
Yes - his biggest issue by far and his number one barrier to success. He needs to feel like he is in control. Others don't "do it right" thus prompting upset. He is very black and white. Rules = good.
This behavior is consistent with a child who doesn't realize he's a child. This is why I asked the previous question- does your kid know maintaining control in the class is the teacher's job- not his? A well developing kid gets that it's not remotely appropriate for him to be responsible for the behavior of others. They might be frustrated and even tattle, but they think it's their position to control others. Your son is already the rule police.

The other piece to this is that many black & white thinkers has a finely tuned and enhanced sense of "justice". We live this. Especially as a little kid, DS was very tuned into him getting into trouble when others were, in his opinion, running amok. 

How did you handle this? It is his most difficult struggle. Is it rooted in anxiety?

Can he follow a 3 step verbal command without support in any setting?

Yes, home & daycare with therapist
Are you all holding him to the same standard? Is he getting scaffolding? Redirection of some sort? Is the school giving novel commands? Does the teacher give all 3 steps at once, where you and the therapist are giving them one at a time or repeating as needed?

I do think having the therapist observe the classroom might be illuminating. We used to send DS's psychologist in from time to time- he had a much better set of ears and eyes than I possess.

His ABA director did observe a few weeks ago. Her thought was since he isn't controlling the situation there, it was impeding his ability to follow the steps. The ability is there but the compliance, not so much. He does get prompts from DH and I, ABA and ECSE as needed. He is always much better for DH and I. We rarely accommodate his quirks (no, do it this way) and he rolls with it well. I don't want to lower the expectation just because he is with us. If anything, I think we may be more harsh. Preschool definitely lets him get away with more in order to keep the peace. His ECSE teacher did tell me that if she gives him a 3 step command and he says "No, I won't" but does it anyway, that is marked as not meeting the goal. I think a lot of this is him thinking his way is better. 

What about visual prompts?
The class uses PECS but they usually aren't needed.
I still think a graphic organizer for the day and cheat sheets for transitions could be useful. Kids are stronger visually- use that to make it easier for him to understand what's expected so he can put all his efforts on compliance. If there are routine spots where he goes to the dark side, a Social Story might help him reframe his tendency to push back and go along with the class.

We'll try to incorporate more of these. They were helpful with riding the bus and potty training. 


Do you mean reverse mainstreaming? Where NT peers are included in the self contained classroom as models? Probably not something you can realistically expect long term. Parents of well developing students typically won't give permission for their child to be pullout for this purpose. Given the move toward more and more high stakes testing this is understandable. Plus you child is already accessing NT peers in day care, no?
Yes. Our county offers this model. It's 8 kids, 4 NT and 4 Sped. There is 1 teacher and 2 aides.
Can you access this class or is it reserved, informally, for certain kinds of IEP supports?

I haven't been able to get a firm answer on this. 

My main concern in all of this is that they are expecting him to figure out how to self-regulate/meet the goals but are not offering any tools to do so. Right now as a 3 year old the only tool in his toolbox is a hammer. They did an FBA but there was no BIP, making the FBA pretty much useless. We have been working on compliance a lot in ABA and he has tested the therapist but she does not give in. We are starting to see behavior improvements and less "NO! It has to be this way" from him.

No BIP? WTF? Who did the FBA? This needs to be a person outside of the school who can be unbiased. 

His ECSE teacher. We asked for it to be updated when he started having more frequent meltdowns in class. They do an FBA automatically at the start of school for all kids on the Spectrum but haven't followed up with a BIP either time. There is a lot of "he gets upset if another child has a meltdown but we're not sure why." Really? Frustrating. 

Thanks for taking the time here. It's really helpful. I appreciate it. 

[auntie]

Yes - his biggest issue by far and his number one barrier to success. He needs to feel like he is in control. Others don't "do it right" thus prompting upset. He is very black and white. Rules = good.
This behavior is consistent with a child who doesn't realize he's a child. This is why I asked the previous question- does your kid know maintaining control in the class is the teacher's job- not his? A well developing kid gets that it's not remotely appropriate for him to be responsible for the behavior of others. They might be frustrated and even tattle, but they think it's their position to control others. Your son is already the rule police.

The other piece to this is that many black & white thinkers has a finely tuned and enhanced sense of "justice". We live this. Especially as a little kid, DS was very tuned into him getting into trouble when others were, in his opinion, running amok.

How did you handle this? It is his most difficult struggle. Is it rooted in anxiety?

Read more: www.pandce.proboards.com/thread/320116/talk-iep-meetings?page=1&scrollTo=6210968#ixzz30YwDiDNh

This is a hard one. We approached it from a couple of angles. Anxiety, which can sometimes have an almost OCD-feel to it plays a huge part. Early on, rote instruction in what n adult's role is and what a child's role is helped. Being assertive and telling him he's not in charge helped. It seems kind of counter-intuitive, but relieving him of the task of being "in charge" (when he knew he wasn't especially effective as the boss) helped dial back the anxiety around this role he'd taken on that was too big for him. Alan Sohn talks a bit about this in Parenting Your Aspergers Child.


His ABA director did observe a few weeks ago. Her thought was since he isn't controlling the situation there, it was impeding his ability to follow the steps. The ability is there but the compliance, not so much. He does get prompts from DH and I, ABA and ECSE as needed. He is always much better for DH and I. We rarely accommodate his quirks (no, do it this way) and he rolls with it well. I don't want to lower the expectation just because he is with us. If anything, I think we may be more harsh. Preschool definitely lets him get away with more in order to keep the peace. His ECSE teacher did tell me that if she gives him a 3 step command and he says "No, I won't" but does it anyway, that is marked as not meeting the goal. I think a lot of this is him thinking his way is better.



Read more: www.pandce.proboards.com/post/new/320116#ixzz30YzO0Ah0


This is a downside to integrated preschool settings where teachers are more SPED generalists than ASD/ABA experts. They just don't get it. Our kids are wired differently and need absolute consistency. 

One thing about using a visual, is that you can convey the command without "nagging"- this helps preserve the relationship because the child won't feel as if they're constantly being told what to do. It's weird, I see this in older kids especially- they'll fight a morning self care routine, for example, if mom's in there leading the charge of do this/do that- but put it in a checklist form and they'll comply without the usual drama. 


No BIP? WTF? Who did the FBA? This needs to be a person outside of the school who can be unbiased.



His ECSE teacher. We asked for it to be updated when he started having more frequent meltdowns in class. They do an FBA automatically at the start of school for all kids on the Spectrum but haven't followed up with a BIP either time. There is a lot of "he gets upset if another child has a meltdown but we're not sure why." Really? Frustrating.



Read more: www.pandce.proboards.com/post/new/320116#ixzz30Z0s22Zb


That's not really an FBA. That's letting a sort of clueless teacher restate her own bias. Gets a real big WTF? from me. An FBA kind of needs to be done by someone who doesn't have an opinion of allegiance to the school or the child/child's family. They need to be independent.

It's kind of wacked that they do an FBA at the start of school since many kiddos on spectrum hold their shit together until they get a little more acclimated. 

[spedrunner]

I read the replies and i just wanted to add that if you are adamant about getting ABA i would inquire about receiving services from DT (Discrete trial) My school has hired a DT trainer who pulls certain students during times of the day to receive services. Depending on what your goals and expectations are, this is def something to consider, ask, or suggest

I would also push for a 1-1, this is also difficult bc of financial reasons and the district will likely argue that one is not needed bc of the small class size, assistants in room, etc BUT as a sped teacher, i can tell you that there is NEVER enough hands or help. ALL of my students need a 1-1 to do their best, unfortunately none receive one. I also have to add a 1-1 is only beneficial if the 1-1 is trained, motivated, and enjoys his/her job. Ive seen many people hired that dont put forth any effort and i would prefer not to have them in my classroom

Good luck and keep up the good work! You will learn so much and your son is lucky to have you!

[KB]

We got the draft today and it is actually better than I thought. The goals need some tweaking and I'm still pushing for OT but it could definitely be worse.

[grace]

May 2, 2014 20:36:54 GMT -5 KB said:

We got the draft today and it is actually better than I thought. The goals need some tweaking and I'm still pushing for OT but it could definitely be worse.

Lurker but I'll chime in!

If you really feel like OT is necessary, definitely push for it. If it were me I'd ask the school and be really nice about it (sounds like that's what you're doing). If they're not responsive, you can formally request an OT eval including sensory concerns (usually request this in writing) and they have 28 days to complete it.

The only thing about school based OT is that they provide a sensory plan so that a child can get through the day, learn, and be functional in the classroom. It's generally not formatted to make an actual long term change to the sensory system; that's often done through private OT. And every state is probably different, but around here (CO) most OTs who are working only on sensory do consult services. So they talk to the teachers and give them a plan that can be implemented each day, as it's not super effective to have the OT work on sensory with the child for 30 minutes a week. Hope that helps!