s/o Changing Names - Is it fair?

[elenetxu]

Out of all the lessons I teach, the lesson about names/titles in the US and Canada always takes a lot longer than I expect. Why? Just about everyone, men and women included, try to tell me how "unfair" it is for women to change their last name when they get married.

Is this something you ever considered? Do you agree with my students? What would you tell them if you had to explain why you changed your name?

I tell them the truth: I never even considered not changing my name until my husband and I talked about it. It's not something I ever thought about, nor did I find it unfair.

Here, women and men keep their own surnames and children get: First Dad'sLastName Mom'sLast Name (the order can be switched).

[VillainV]

I don't think it's unfair. A woman doesn't have to change her name if she doesn't want to. As long as a woman can choose to do it or not, I don't see how it can be "unfair."

I mean, is it unfortunate that some women are expected to go by their husband's name? I guess. I don't have my husband's name, and other than short-lived confusion until I can explain that we have different names, I have had zero issues.

[rupertpenny]

Well, it kind of denotes the fact that women used to be considered chattel. So yeah, I think unfair is one way to put it. Not that women weren't also considered property in places where they kept their name after marriage, but I think the whole tradition comes from the transfer of ownership from father to husband.

ANYWAY, I still changed my name. My H can be weirdly traditional sometimes and it wasn't something I really cared about enough to make a fuss over. Plus my new name is much easier to spell and pronounce which is nice.

[circa1978]

My MIL is still pissed almost 50 years later that it was the law in the state where she got married that she had to change her name. Yes, I do think it is unfair to MAKE a woman give up part of her identity so that the standards of a patriarchal society aren't disrupted. My H has friends who both took on a hyphenated name when they married, which I think was a lovely option. Most of my female friends and family also hyphenate.

As long as taking the person's name is a choice, on a woman's part or a man's, I don't have a problem with it, though. In fact, I hyphenated my name seven years ago, for professional reasons but I recently decided that I'd like to drop my original last name because I feel more part of my ILs family than I ever did my abusive birth father's. The key is that it is my decision.

[candreco]

It's unfair that it's often the (unspoken or not) expectation that the woman will change her name.

My parents both hyphenated their last names when they got married, and so I grew up with the hyphenated last name. While I think the sentiment behind it was great, and think it was awesome that my dad was willing to do that when it certainly wasn't the norm (and his parents never accepted it), it was really a PITA to deal with in school, on forms, just about everywhere. I probably would have kept my maiden name, whether it was my mom's or my dad's, if it wasn't hyphenated. Though hyphenated names are more common now, so maybe it's not as bad?

[VillainV]

May 29, 2014 3:08:01 GMT -5 nicbreeful said:

May 29, 2014 2:53:56 GMT -5 VillainV said:

I don't think it's unfair. A woman doesn't have to change her name if she doesn't want to. As long as a woman can choose to do it or not, I don't see how it can be "unfair."

I mean, is it unfortunate that some women are expected to go by their husband's name? I guess. I don't have my husband's name, and other than short-lived confusion until I can explain that we have different names, I have had zero issues.

Genuine question.. What about her children?

My husband and I got to choose which last name to give our son.  We picked my husband's last name.  TBF, I will probably change my last name to hyphenate when we get back to the states (too many logistical challenges while living overseas).     

I guess if it was MANDATORY to give a child the husband's name, then that's not really fair.  What if there is no "husband"? 

[VillainV]

May 29, 2014 3:31:18 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

My MIL is still pissed almost 50 years later that it was the law in the state where she got married that she had to change her name. Yes, I do think it is unfair to MAKE a woman give up part of her identity so that the standards of a patriarchal society aren't disrupted. My H has friends who both took on a hyphenated name when they married, which I think was a lovely option. Most of my female friends and family also hyphenate.

So, genuine question here....is there really a big difference between keeping one man's name (my father's) or taking a new man's name (my husband's)??  Would it be any different, or any more fair, if it was the woman's name that was handed down?   We live in a society that has given names and surnames, and that surname has to come from somewhere.  Does it matter where?   Not trying to be snarky at all, this is a genuine question intended to spark some debate.   

[spitforspat]

I don't know about "fair," but I don't like the expectation. If someone wants to change their name, of course they should. But my name is a part of who I am. It's very important to me. I'm not going to change it so people know something I could very easily just tell them.

[pandorica]

I think it's an unfair expectation. I know FH didn't really understand until I went off about how it's BS a woman is expected to change her name but not a man (after he said he wanted me to change my name). Now he says it's not fair of him to expect me to do it when he would never change his name <3

[Muddled]

Is patriarchy fair?
Is the fact that women were/are considered the property of a man fair?

[sapphireblue]

I think it's unfair.

[circa1978]

I believe what matters is the choice VillainV. If my MIL had wanted to keep her family name, she was not able to because it was the law. So she - against her will, and his for that matter - took my FIL's. Yes, it was her father's name she wanted to keep but, since had possessed it since birth, it was hers in her eyes. A discussion of children's surnames is somewhat different.

[pantsparty]

I don't think the expectation is "fair," but ultimately it is a choice - and one that is becoming more widely accepted should one choose not to change her name.

[CurlyQ284]

May 29, 2014 7:20:27 GMT -5 VillainV said:

May 29, 2014 3:31:18 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

My MIL is still pissed almost 50 years later that it was the law in the state where she got married that she had to change her name. Yes, I do think it is unfair to MAKE a woman give up part of her identity so that the standards of a patriarchal society aren't disrupted. My H has friends who both took on a hyphenated name when they married, which I think was a lovely option. Most of my female friends and family also hyphenate.

So, genuine question here....is there really a big difference between keeping one man's name (my father's) or taking a new man's name (my husband's)??  Would it be any different, or any more fair, if it was the woman's name that was handed down?   We live in a society that has given names and surnames, and that surname has to come from somewhere.  Does it matter where?   Not trying to be snarky at all, this is a genuine question intended to spark some debate.   

I was thinking this. Going back to women being property, if I keep my name don't I just stay my dad's "property"?

I have problems with my dad, I've posted here before that he is a recovering alcoholic and a narcissistic asshole. We have a lot of bad baggage. I couldn't wait to change my name.

After I did, my feminist studies professor posted on my facebook that he was disappointed that I did it. I didn't want to air out my daddy issues on Facebook but it made me upset. You don't know my lyfe prof! I wrote our entire ceremony to be feministy enough!

I think if I had my moms maiden name I would not have changed it.

[Muddled]

May 29, 2014 8:35:47 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

May 29, 2014 7:20:27 GMT -5 VillainV said:

So, genuine question here....is there really a big difference between keeping one man's name (my father's) or taking a new man's name (my husband's)??  Would it be any different, or any more fair, if it was the woman's name that was handed down?   We live in a society that has given names and surnames, and that surname has to come from somewhere.  Does it matter where?   Not trying to be snarky at all, this is a genuine question intended to spark some debate.   

I was thinking this. Going back to women being property, if I keep my name don't I just stay my dad's "property"?

I have problems with my dad, I've posted here before that he is a recovering alcoholic and a narcissistic asshole. We have a lot of bad baggage. I couldn't wait to change my name.

After I did, my feminist studies professor posted on my facebook that he was disappointed that I did it. I didn't want to air out my daddy issues on Facebook but it made me upset. You don't know my lyfe prof! I wrote our entire ceremony to be feministy enough!

I think if I had my moms maiden name I would not have changed it.

You could have changed your name to be your mom's maiden instead of your husband's.

[circa1978]

I have the same problems with my father's name CurlyQ284. (ETA: In that he was a jerk and I don't like being reminded of him every time I sign my name.) And children's names are hard, for the same reason Tamb outlined. Our son has H's. But I do feel like within the past 25 years with divorce and more people choosing to have kids without getting married, children's last names aren't necessarily their fathers, and people accept that, but there does seem to still be a lot of pressure to "take your husband's name."

[CurlyQ284]

Muddled

It literally did not occur to me until I was typing my post. Dangit!

[Muddled]

May 29, 2014 8:46:35 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Muddled

It literally did not occur to me until I was typing my post. Dangit!

That's ok. Societal "rules" will do that to you.

[lilac05]

I don't know if "unfair" is what I'd use, as women CAN have whatever name they choose. The expectation to change names is unfair, but as my mom often told me, "Life's not fair."

I changed my name for many reasons, but 9 years later, I still miss my maiden name (though I don't regret my decision). It was a "pretty", unique name, but was not difficult to pronounce once it was heard. I felt like my name defined me in many ways. My married name is boring, ugly, and pretty common.

As a compromise, we gave both of my boys names related to my side of the family. At first, H's family gave us a hard time for not using his family's name, but 1) they didn't get a vote anyway, and 2) it was important to both of us to have a part of their name from my side of the family.

[cville]

What cjoy said. Of course it's unfair. The world may have bigger fish to fry when it comes to unfairness, but the fact that it's "just" a name doesn't make it FAIR.

[gtkim]

When my oldest niece got married last year her DH took her last name as his.  It doesn't have to be the woman, men can do it too.

She had a child from a previous relationship who had her last name (bio dad rarely in the picture).  She and her DH knew they would have kids together so he took her name so everyone would have the same last name.

[cville]

May 29, 2014 9:33:34 GMT -5 cjoy said:

I was looking for stats on how many men actually change their names (no number exists that I could find, I assume it's... miniscule).

I did find this though:

Of Republicans surveyed, 81 percent said a woman should take her husband's last name after marriage. Of Democrats surveyed, 60 percent agreed.
Fifty-one percent of independents surveyed agreed.

Fifty-three percent of Republicans said that a man should not be allowed to take his wife's last name after marriage; just 30 percent said a man should be allowed. Of Democrats surveyed, 56 percent said a man should be allowed to take his wife's last name."



www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/14/changing-your-last-name_n_3073125.html

Charming.  Motherfuckers.

[PeonyParty]

I do think it's ridiculous that women changing their names is still considered the norm. I took my husband's last name. I went through an 8 year stint in the military and worked numerous jobs in which I went predominantly by my maiden name while I had it and I still changed it. I was OK with the decision since my husband was just as OK with changing his if I asked him to. I think it bothers me more that some husbands expect their wives take their names but would never consider taking the wife's name.
We did have a time where we heavily debated choosing an entirely new name when I was pregnant. That would have been neat to do.

[Moe]

I don't think of it as fair or unfair, I think it's cultural dependent.  Luckily now (except if you're in Montreal, eh papie) you can change your name (or keep it) as you choose and it's pretty much accepted.  I kept my last name.  DH never even whispered the thought of my changing my last name. 

I am (Hispanic) also a fatherslastname motherslastname no hyphen, as it is with everyone.  When we registered our dog, she adopted mylastname-dhlastname.

The one irritating thing is that the US doesn't really recognize (usually) the whole two last name no hyphen thing, so I'm often addressed as moe motherslastname because orgs think that my fatherslastname is my middle name.

I also often just go by my fatherslastname for ease sake.  

So many options!  Lol

eta: maybe it isn't as quotidian as I thought after reading these replies!

[elenetxu]

May 29, 2014 7:54:43 GMT -5 Muddled said:

Is patriarchy fair?
Is the fact that women were/are considered the property of a man fair?

Fair was probably the wrong word.


I think the debate is interesting, especially since I find Spanish society a lot more openly machista than society in the US.

[lauralala]

May 29, 2014 10:01:34 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

My H had a snit when we were engaged over the fact I wasn't jumping to take his name. He sees my POV now and doesn't care that I hyphenated, but I guess he just expected his wife would take his name and had a hard time adjusting.

I did not change my name, which pretty much blew DH's mind. He still gets irritated when people address him as Mr. Mylastname, since changing is the "normal" thing to do.  I think he eventually understood my point of view, but he had never even considered the possibility before.

We hyphenated DS's last name when we adopted him after some debate.  His birth last name was already the same mine, so changing it wasn't even really necessary, but I did want DH to have that name bond with him. 

Names are tricky, apparently.

[suzyp]

May 29, 2014 8:35:47 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

May 29, 2014 7:20:27 GMT -5 VillainV said:

So, genuine question here....is there really a big difference between keeping one man's name (my father's) or taking a new man's name (my husband's)??  Would it be any different, or any more fair, if it was the woman's name that was handed down?   We live in a society that has given names and surnames, and that surname has to come from somewhere.  Does it matter where?   Not trying to be snarky at all, this is a genuine question intended to spark some debate.   

I was thinking this. Going back to women being property, if I keep my name don't I just stay my dad's "property"?

I have problems with my dad, I've posted here before that he is a recovering alcoholic and a narcissistic asshole. We have a lot of bad baggage. I couldn't wait to change my name.

After I did, my feminist studies professor posted on my facebook that he was disappointed that I did it. I didn't want to air out my daddy issues on Facebook but it made me upset. You don't know my lyfe prof! I wrote our entire ceremony to be feministy enough!

I think if I had my moms maiden name I would not have changed it.

My sisters and I don't have a relationship with my father. When sister no. 1 got married, she changed her name. My Mom (who changed her name back to her maiden name when my parents divorced) was a little annoyed that she planned to do so.  My sister's response was "why would I want to keep Dad's name, when I could share a name with someone I love." 

Interestingly, Sister No. 2 got married and changed her middle to my MOM's maiden name, BILslastname, so she no longer has my father's name.

I changed my name to my Mom's last name after I graduated from college - I had made a decision that I was not going to change my name upon marriage, so I changed my name to hers (and my grandparents).  Best decision ever.  It was also a non-negotiable for me and DH doesn't care and honestly, if he did, I don't think we would have gotten married.  We are not having kids so I really happy we don't have to fight about the last name issue. Like Tamb said, any child would be equally "from" us, so I don't like the fact that it is assumed the kids will have the father's last name. Plus, his name is a VERB. A VERB.

[Moe]

I remember lovedan's cousin I think, who also was a nestie, lived in Portland, and had short hair? She and her husband changed both their names to something unique to them? Like, they created a new last name for their unit.  I thought that was cool.

[cville]

May 29, 2014 8:35:47 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

May 29, 2014 7:20:27 GMT -5 VillainV said:

So, genuine question here....is there really a big difference between keeping one man's name (my father's) or taking a new man's name (my husband's)??  Would it be any different, or any more fair, if it was the woman's name that was handed down?   We live in a society that has given names and surnames, and that surname has to come from somewhere.  Does it matter where?   Not trying to be snarky at all, this is a genuine question intended to spark some debate.   

I was thinking this. Going back to women being property, if I keep my name don't I just stay my dad's "property"?

Sorta, but only because the default in our society is patriarchal naming.  If you were Icelandic, this wouldn't be an issue.  My name from birth felt more MINE than did my husband's, regardless of the fact that it came from my father and not from my mother.  Again, I don't really care what other people do, only that they care what I do.  Lol.

And your feminist studies professor was an asshole.  

[Deleted]

What I thought was unfair was that sometimes there is a cost to change your name. I ran into this for passport (so I never changed it), car registration (so I never changed it), and something else I can't recall. I was pissed that I had to pay money when my H didn't. Which I guess all came out of the same pot, but whatever. It just seemed unfair.

It is a lot of extra work to change your name, and that's kind of unfair too.

As a side note, I didn't realize this wasn't a standard practice outside of the US/Canada. I think it's normal in England too? I guess IDK about other cultures but I thought it was kind of the norm everywhere. No?