Advice: When would u jump off a sinking ship?

[dulcemariamar]

I would like to hear your thoughts/advice to get different perspectives.

If you lived in Spain or Greece right now, what would you do? Would you get off the sinking ship ASAP or would you wait and see?

Before the crisis, everything was pretty good. I enjoyed living here because of paid vacation, sick leave, and free health care. Now, with the crisis things are changing and it is crazy that every day there is something new we have to face. My DH still has his job and so far we have been very lucky. However, with the increase in sales tax, food prices, income tax, etc, at the end of each month we have less money than we did before.

Now we have to pay more for medicine and they are talking about implementing a copay. So basically we pay more taxes, but we get less.

What would you do if you were in my situation? Would you do anything specific financially? Would you just move if you lost your job or would you get out before?

[frlcb]

Can you guys move somewhere else? I think if the option to move was there (ie, you can get your dh a green card easily) then yes, I would probably move.

[crimsonandclover]

That is a really good question. Honestly, a lot would depend on what other options you have. Can you and your DH easily move to another country? How would the jobs and your financial situation be there? Just because it's getting worse in Spain doesn't mean it's not still better than somewhere else. Germany, for example, has such great job security and benefits that even if they started cutting the benefits, they would still be way better than in the US, our primary alternative.

What are your job chances somewhere else? Your DH's? Were you planning to be a SAHM in Spain? Would that work out in another country or would you have to be dual income to make it? Childcare is insanely expensive in the US, for example, so if you were planning on putting your LO in daycare for even part-time, in the US you would have to work a lot just to cover that expense.

Sorry I can't just give a straight answer, but I don't think there is an easy one. It completely depends on your situation and the alternatives open to you.

[dulcemariamar]

Jul 23, 2012 7:34:19 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Can you guys move somewhere else? I think if the option to move was there (ie, you can get your dh a green card easily) then yes, I would probably move.

What do you mean easily? I guess it would take between 4-6 months but we have never tried and maybe there is a longer wait now because there is a greater demand to move to the States.

[dulcemariamar]

Jul 23, 2012 7:37:59 GMT -5 crimsonandclover said:

That is a really good question. Honestly, a lot would depend on what other options you have. Can you and your DH easily move to another country? How would the jobs and your financial situation be there? Just because it's getting worse in Spain doesn't mean it's not still better than somewhere else. Germany, for example, has such great job security and benefits that even if they started cutting the benefits, they would still be way better than in the US, our primary alternative.

What are your job chances somewhere else? Your DH's? Were you planning to be a SAHM in Spain? Would that work out in another country or would you have to be dual income to make it? Childcare is insanely expensive in the US, for example, so if you were planning on putting your LO in daycare for even part-time, in the US you would have to work a lot just to cover that expense.

Sorry I can't just give a straight answer, but I don't think there is an easy one. It completely depends on your situation and the alternatives open to you.

I think my DH could get a job outside of Spain especially in a place like London. We never moved before because even though he would make a lot more more, the cost of living is a lot greater so in the end we didnt think it was worth it. Plus, in his current job he has really good timetable for his sector. If he went to the States he would probably have to work 60 hours a week. And my DH hates cold weather so even though I am open to the idea of moving to Germany, he is not really keen on it.

I am planning on SAHM for the first 2-3 years. I might SAHM longer if we add a second to the mix.

[frlcb]

Jul 23, 2012 7:51:17 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

Jul 23, 2012 7:34:19 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Can you guys move somewhere else? I think if the option to move was there (ie, you can get your dh a green card easily) then yes, I would probably move.

What do you mean easily? I guess it would take between 4-6 months but we have never tried and maybe there is a longer wait now because there is a greater demand to move to the States.

Can you do DCF through Spain or do you have to do it through the US? Easily would be DCF. Not easily would be through the US, since that means you would either be separated or he couldn't work in the US while waiting for it. I would probably do DCF regardless, if it is available, and get started now so you have it if you decide to move in that timeframe.

[dulcemariamar]

Jul 23, 2012 8:00:54 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Jul 23, 2012 7:51:17 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

What do you mean easily? I guess it would take between 4-6 months but we have never tried and maybe there is a longer wait now because there is a greater demand to move to the States.

Can you do DCF through Spain or do you have to do it through the US? Easily would be DCF. Not easily would be through the US, since that means you would either be separated or he couldn't work in the US while waiting for it. I would probably do DCF regardless, if it is available, and get started now so you have it if you decide to move in that timeframe.

What does DCF stand for? I guess we could start the paperwork but since we are not 100% sold on the idea on moving to the States, maybe it would be a waste of money. Dont you have to pay for the VISA in two parts?

[allibally]

Jul 23, 2012 8:00:54 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Jul 23, 2012 7:51:17 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

What do you mean easily? I guess it would take between 4-6 months but we have never tried and maybe there is a longer wait now because there is a greater demand to move to the States.

Can you do DCF through Spain or do you have to do it through the US? Easily would be DCF. Not easily would be through the US, since that means you would either be separated or he couldn't work in the US while waiting for it. I would probably do DCF regardless, if it is available, and get started now so you have it if you decide to move in that timeframe.

Direct Consular Filing. It's not available for Spain. They don't have a USCIS field office. Unless they added one recently.

Honestly it would probably take 10 months till you would receive a green card. That was the time frame for our process. We could of maybe did it in 9.

You can also start the first process and extended time between starting the 2nd part. If you are still up in the air about leaving.

[allibally]

Jul 23, 2012 8:04:13 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

Dont you have to pay for the VISA in two parts?

We paid ours in two parts. Once the first part is approved. I believe you have a year to act on filing and paying for the second part.

[anna7602]

Jul 23, 2012 7:37:59 GMT -5 crimsonandclover said:

What are your job chances somewhere else? Your DH's? Were you planning to be a SAHM in Spain? Would that work out in another country or would you have to be dual income to make it? Childcare is insanely expensive in the US, for example, so if you were planning on putting your LO in daycare for even part-time, in the US you would have to work a lot just to cover that expense.

This is the big one. If you have the ability to SAH now, or at least have family around (or government-subsidized care) to help out if you needed to freelance/bring in extra income at some point down the road, staying in Spain looks pretty good. To call childcare insanely expensive in the U.S. is just part of it. It's also insanely limited- daycare waitlists are super, super long in a lot of urban areas, hours don't necessarily mirror the workday hours, nannies want a guaranteed number of hours/week plus paid vacation, etc. The whole childcare thing was probably my biggest stress as a parent. I practically clicked my heels together in joy once DD was in school.

And then there's the whole cost of starting over. It's one thing if your DH can easily transfer elsewhere through his company and gets some moving costs covered, but moving is expensive as all heck. And there's no safety net in the U.S.- healthcare, child care and all of that are entirely on you.

I would be inclined to stay as long as your DH's job feels relatively stable and perhaps look into the green card process just in case.

ETA: Financially, I would try to beef up my savings and not make any major purchases like a new car, etc. for the time being. I would also try to figure out what guarantee you have on the money in the bank and determine whether you should have bank accounts outside of Spain.

[anna7602]

ps- how does your DH feel? Is he open to leaving or would it be really hard for him emotionally and professionally?

[elenetxu]

DMM, great thread, and thank you for asking this question. We're "in the same boat" (on the same ship?) and scared to death, especially after my program got cut last week. We're hoping to speak with an immigration lawyer while we're in the US to see if they have any advice. One of DH's colleagues is telling us to get out while we can, and I've noticed a major increase in negativity from my older colleagues recently. This is getting scary.

IF we are able to do it this way, what DH and I would like to do is get him a green card but not necessarily make the long-term move (this is why we're going to talk to a lawyer, I'm just so lost). That way if/when we want to leave, we can and we won't have to wait 8 or so months.

[clickerish]

I'm going to second whoever said above that it really depends on what your other options are.

In the US, childcare costs are obscene, benefits are never guaranteed, the healthcare system is often questionable and until 2014 previously existing conditions aren't covered. I have a ton of unemployed friends with great degrees from good schools so there is no guarantee whatsoever that you will find your situation greatly improved since one of you is still very much employed in Spain where at least his salary is paid in the euro. As for moving to London, yes the pound is stronger, but the COL in London is through the roof. You also have to factor in that it is cold and rainy all the time in London which might not really make up for the economic bonus. While I personally like London, I could never move there since my partner would go insane.

I do think it's worth looking into getting your husband a green card just in case (or just so you feel like you have a backup)

[dulcemariamar]

My DH cant transfer because he works for a company that is only located in Spain. As long as he doesn't lose his job and they don't go crazy with the tax increase and benefit cuts then I guess we are going to stay put for now.

I would like to move back to the States. But just thinking about finding health care and the cost of living and no paid sick/vacation leave makes me .

Unfortunately, with the LO coming we are going to have to spend money. We made a budget before TTC so that is good.

I am just crossing my fingers and that it is true when they Spain is just too big to fail and that EU wont let it happen.

[clickerish]

Spain is really in far better shape than Greece thanks to the bailout by the EU. Rajoy will probably die an early death, and it's not looking so hot for Rubalcaba either, but overall, Spain is fortunate. You guys are also fairly fortunate even though it seems awful in that you have worked so you have access to healthcare, no? The ones I'm seeing go nuts are those who haven't worked a day and are being phased out.

Granted, culture and education are going to take a hit they may never recover from, but I think healthcare will probably survive fairly well. I'm guessing a WHOLE lot more people will be going into medicine despite preferring other fields since the only people I know in Spain who aren't worried about job cuts are doctors.

[frlcb]

While it is true that the US has less vacation time why would you assume it is no paid sick/vacation time? My dh has 15 days vacation and whatever sick days he needs, all paid.

[mouseinlux]

I'd personally look for a job for your DH elsewhere in the EU. What field of work is he in? If it's financial then London isn't the only place to look, especially if he speaks good English, Spanish and any other language.

[dulcemariamar]

Jul 23, 2012 18:50:25 GMT -5 frlcb said:

While it is true that the US has less vacation time why would you assume it is no paid sick/vacation time? My dh has 15 days vacation and whatever sick days he needs, all paid.

I know there is paid vacation in the States but it would be hard to go from 6 weeks (not including national holidays) to 2 weeks (plus holidays).

I never heard of anybody getting unlimited sick days. I mean that is fantastic but whenever I worked in the States or family members, you usually didn't have them paid or you would get 4 or 6 days out of the year.

[dulcemariamar]

Jul 23, 2012 23:28:13 GMT -5 mouseinlux said:

I'd personally look for a job for your DH elsewhere in the EU. What field of work is he in? If it's financial then London isn't the only place to look, especially if he speaks good English, Spanish and any other language.

Yeah, that is the dilemma. I was just curious what other people would do in this situation. We are going to stay put until it looks like my DH will lose his job. Starting over is going to cost quite a bit of money and with LO coming at the end of the year, we are going to wait and see.

[grosnl19]

Jul 23, 2012 18:50:25 GMT -5 frlcb said:

While it is true that the US has less vacation time why would you assume it is no paid sick/vacation time? My dh has 15 days vacation and whatever sick days he needs, all paid.

When I left the US last year I had 15 days of vacation and 9 days paid sick leave that we could treat as vacation if we wanted to.

[crimsonandclover]

While it's normal to get paid vacation and a bit of sick leave in the US, it still amazes me when my brother and his gf (who work FT at a bank, so it's not like the benefits are bad) talk about their co-pays on stuff. His gf's GYN thought her ovaries were enlarged at her annual, so he did an ultrasound to check things out (and found nothing unusual). Her share - $400. And even though they have dental, when my brother got something done a few months ago, his share of the bill was $1200. And their healthcare plan is not considered to be a bad one. My dad, who works for an amazing worldwide company and has awesome healthcare, just met his deductible for the year this month. He has interstitial lung disease, is on a bunch of different medication, and regularly sees a specialist at a university hospital where tests on run to check on his progress. I don't know what their deductible is, but if it took them 6 months with that kind of treatment to reach it, it's gotta be high (I'm guessing $10,000?).
To be honest, I have so many little medical issues that continually come up - and a few big ones, as well - that it would take a heck of a lot to make a move to the US make financial sense for us.

So it's not just the vacation to be taken into consideration when thinking about a move to the States.

[oneslybookworm]

Jul 24, 2012 0:34:27 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

Jul 23, 2012 18:50:25 GMT -5 frlcb said:

While it is true that the US has less vacation time why would you assume it is no paid sick/vacation time? My dh has 15 days vacation and whatever sick days he needs, all paid.

I know there is paid vacation in the States but it would be hard to go from 6 weeks (not including national holidays) to 2 weeks (plus holidays).

I never heard of anybody getting unlimited sick days. I mean that is fantastic but whenever I worked in the States or family members, you usually didn't have them paid or you would get 4 or 6 days out of the year.

This is definitely dependent on employeer. DH's and my employeer don't have "sick days" per se...you're sick, you stay home. Done. No one questions it...no one tallies your time. Now...if you're out for MONTHS on end...it's going to be questioned...but if you're sick or need time off, then you get that. This is 100% paid and on top of 3 weeks (starting out) vacation...not including holidays.

[anna7602]

I see everyone is rallying to point out that there IS vacation time offered at many jobs in the U.S., but seriously- no one thinks there is a BIG difference between 2 or 3 weeks and 6 weeks?

It has made a huge difference in our work/life satisfaction and relationship to go from DH having 4 paid weeks off in the U.S.- combo of vacation, personal days, sick days and floating holidays (like if he wants to take a religious holiday off even when his firm is open)- to 6 weeks here, plus absolutely unquestioned sick time. He took 2 weeks off in February when he had pneumonia and it didn't impact the vacation time he can still take the rest of the year at all.

He was asked not to take vacation during certain times of the year here, but his boss has assured him he can still take the time. In the U.S., it was really hard for him to ever take the 4 weeks owed him and only something like 5 days could be rolled over into the following year.

As for me, I freelance so never expected to get paid vacation time. However, it does suck that my health insurance is entirely dependent on DH's job. My freelancing friends in Spain and France don't have to worry about that. And my friends in France even get government grants to do artistic and literary projects (that I don't qualify for, I've already checked).

/rant about crappy benefits in the U.S.

[frlcb]

Jul 24, 2012 13:40:15 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

I see everyone is rallying to point out that there IS vacation time offered at many jobs in the U.S., but seriously- no one thinks there is a BIG difference between 2 or 3 weeks and 6 weeks?

No but there is a BIG difference between no vacation/sick time and 2 to 3 weeks vacation time and unlimited sick time. The OP implied that it was always the case in the US that there was no vacation/paid sick time, but that is simply not true. I know it varies by business but I don't know anyone that has no vacation or paid sick time.

[crimsonandclover]

Jul 24, 2012 13:47:14 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Jul 24, 2012 13:40:15 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

I see everyone is rallying to point out that there IS vacation time offered at many jobs in the U.S., but seriously- no one thinks there is a BIG difference between 2 or 3 weeks and 6 weeks?

No but there is a BIG difference between no vacation/sick time and 2 to 3 weeks vacation time and unlimited sick time. The OP implied that it was always the case in the US that there was no vacation/paid sick time, but that is simply not true. I know it varies by business but I don't know anyone that has no vacation or paid sick time.

That's what I was saying, too. Most people I know in the States do have vacation / sick leave, so the claim that most jobs don't just doesn't ring true in my ears. But I completely agree that I love, love, love DH's vacation time. 6 weeks is awesome, and it would be really difficult for me to get used to a US 2-3 week limit, plus so few federal holidays.

Another thing I mentioned earlier that no one has picked up on is job security. Is it different in other countries? In Germany once you've been working for 6 months, they have to have a good reason to fire you - as in, you steal from coworkers/the company, you've been sick for a year and the dr says you won't be able to ever go back, or the company has to downsize (and even then they have to apply a scale of social criteria, so the fact that DH has a wife and kids at home that he's supporting are major points in favor of keeping him). If we were to go back to the US, where you can essentially be fired at any time for almost no reason whatsoever (or no reason, since in many states they don't have to give a reason and therefore don't to avoid lawsuits), I think I would live in constant fear of DH losing his job. For me, the job security in Germany is another big reason to continue living there.

[oneslybookworm]

Jul 24, 2012 14:03:47 GMT -5 crimsonandclover said:

Jul 24, 2012 13:47:14 GMT -5 frlcb said:

No but there is a BIG difference between no vacation/sick time and 2 to 3 weeks vacation time and unlimited sick time. The OP implied that it was always the case in the US that there was no vacation/paid sick time, but that is simply not true. I know it varies by business but I don't know anyone that has no vacation or paid sick time.

That's what I was saying, too. Most people I know in the States do have vacation / sick leave, so the claim that most jobs don't just doesn't ring true in my ears. But I completely agree that I love, love, love DH's vacation time. 6 weeks is awesome, and it would be really difficult for me to get used to a US 2-3 week limit, plus so few federal holidays.

Another thing I mentioned earlier that no one has picked up on is job security. Is it different in other countries? In Germany once you've been working for 6 months, they have to have a good reason to fire you - as in, you steal from coworkers/the company, you've been sick for a year and the dr says you won't be able to ever go back, or the company has to downsize (and even then they have to apply a scale of social criteria, so the fact that DH has a wife and kids at home that he's supporting are major points in favor of keeping him). If we were to go back to the US, where you can essentially be fired at any time for almost no reason whatsoever (or no reason, since in many states they don't have to give a reason and therefore don't to avoid lawsuits), I think I would live in constant fear of DH losing his job. For me, the job security in Germany is another big reason to continue living there.

It's that way here in the NL as well. I can see both sides of it. Personally, it can be nice that you have that job security, but I also see it lead to a lot of slacking. You know you're not gonig to get fired, so where's your incentive to work hard and complete things? We had a few guys on our team that were HORRIBLE workers, and we had to fight like hell to get them fired...even though they never did their job! It was ridiculous.

[oneslybookworm]

Jul 24, 2012 13:40:15 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

I see everyone is rallying to point out that there IS vacation time offered at many jobs in the U.S., but seriously- no one thinks there is a BIG difference between 2 or 3 weeks and 6 weeks?

It has made a huge difference in our work/life satisfaction and relationship to go from DH having 4 paid weeks off in the U.S.- combo of vacation, personal days, sick days and floating holidays (like if he wants to take a religious holiday off even when his firm is open)- to 6 weeks here, plus absolutely unquestioned sick time. He took 2 weeks off in February when he had pneumonia and it didn't impact the vacation time he can still take the rest of the year at all.

He was asked not to take vacation during certain times of the year here, but his boss has assured him he can still take the time. In the U.S., it was really hard for him to ever take the 4 weeks owed him and only something like 5 days could be rolled over into the following year.

As for me, I freelance so never expected to get paid vacation time. However, it does suck that my health insurance is entirely dependent on DH's job. My freelancing friends in Spain and France don't have to worry about that. And my friends in France even get government grants to do artistic and literary projects (that I don't qualify for, I've already checked).

/rant about crappy benefits in the U.S.

I am in no way saying that the 3-4 weeks in the US compares to the 6 weeks in Europe, but frankly, with the salary differential (and I can only speak to my husband's trade...engineering), I'd MUCH rather have the 3-4 weeks vacation and actually be able to afford a nice vacation than the 6 weeks vacation and making half of what he makes now, and not be able to go somewhere for vacation because money is tight. No point in having a million vacation days if you can't use them for something fun (in my mind).

[oneslybookworm]

I will also say my response is directly related to our position, no one elses. We would not be able to live on a European salary and be able to take vacations for 6 weeks a year with our student loan debt...on top of housing costs, insurance, transportation, taxes, etc.

[pittpurple]

Just jumping in on one subject - I didn't have any vacation or sick leave. After 1 year at the job I got straight out of university, I was given 5 days annual leave per year. That was to include sick leave. So for a year, the only days I had off were Saturday/Sundays, Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Day and New Year's Day. They wouldn't even give me the Friday after Thanksgiving off so I could go see my mom.

The problem with the states is that there's no guarantee of time off as it's not regulated. In the UK, there's a national minimum that everyone gets - if you work in a grocery store or are the CEO of a huge company, you always have at least the minimum (25 days I think?) plus public holidays. So it's a huge, huge consideration for us.

Dulce - I would think that it's worth keeping all options open. It can take a while to get a green card so if you think there's any chance it will get bad enough to go to the states, it's worth checking out. But there are tons of options before that. Having EU citizenship is fantastic and there are definitely other places to consider first. I'm a big fan of waiting until there's a problem before reacting (which explains a lot about why we are still here in Edinburgh!). If you guys are generally speaking happy and your DH's job is 'secure' (whatever that means nowadays) then I don't see any reason to start panicking.

There's no such thing as a secure job nowadays anyway!

[clickerish]

I am in total agreement with pittpurple. It really depends in the US. I used to work for the federal government and got a whopping 2 weeks of vacation plus 13 sick days. I couldn't take the 2 weeks consecutively. We even had to take turns working federal holidays. Plus, even though I technically got paid for 40 hours, there was no way I didn't put in at least 60 most of the time.

The worst part about it was that my colleague who had children refused to take her 13 sick days for herself because of the childcare issue--so that meant I kept having to use MY sick days from her contagion. And yet more? I am not complaining because it was actually a pretty decent job as far as benefits went.