Advice: When would u jump off a sinking ship?

[Wanderista]

I'm one of those American stereotypes in that I don't get sick leave or paid vacation leave at all. However, I do get to work from home and they allow me to take working vacations, where I work X amount per day via their web server. That enables me to travel more than most Americans.

When I went to Egypt, I took unpaid leave. I've learned to factor that into the cost of a holiday. I like my job, so I don't mind, but yeah, I only take off federal holidays, the odd random day or a deathly ill sick day. I think the last proper sick day I took might have been in April of 2010. I can work from home now, so I normally work even when sick and frankly I don't get sick in an incapacitating way much. When I had an allergic reaction recently and went to the hospital, I was logging into work a half hour after I was back from getting the epi-pen shot.

Before this, I worked in law which was way worse. I worked 13 hour days every weekday with no overtime pay. I was lucky in that I always got weekends off. In that culture, you get leave officially but it doesn't mean that you are allowed to use it. I've seen a lady beg to take the day off because her father had gotten lost at sea and nearly died. He was found washed ashore on an inhabitated island, which is the only reason that he lived. She needed to go pick him up. She basically had to humiliate herself by begging her legal bosses for the day off in order to go rescue him. Seriously.

I agree that it is appalling that America has no regulation of this stuff, but it is because American culture does not see it as a problem. "America, land of the free, baby!" Free to work yourself to death. Sorry for my sarcasm. My company is great, a really nice one by American standards. I do think that American culture could learn a lot from European culture, despite what many Americans may believe.

[frlcb]

Jul 25, 2012 11:00:37 GMT -5 Wanderista said:

I'm one of those American stereotypes in that I don't get sick leave or paid vacation leave at all. However, I do get to work from home and they allow me to take working vacations, where I work X amount per day via their web server. That enables me to travel more than most Americans.

Are you a consultant? I honestly don't know anyone who has a full time job working for a company (not as a consultant or freelancer) who does not have paid vacation time, even if it is as little as 5 days.

[anna7602]

Jul 25, 2012 12:44:23 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Jul 25, 2012 11:00:37 GMT -5 Wanderista said:

I'm one of those American stereotypes in that I don't get sick leave or paid vacation leave at all. However, I do get to work from home and they allow me to take working vacations, where I work X amount per day via their web server. That enables me to travel more than most Americans.

At one place I used to work, vacation time was earned and you only started accruing it after 6 months. So, people who had been there a year or less had either nothing at all or something like two days.

Are you a consultant? I honestly don't know anyone who has a full time job working for a company (not as a consultant or freelancer) who does not have paid vacation time, even if it is as little as 5 days.

[Wanderista]

If my job were a Facebook relationship status, it would be, "It's complicated." It's not a bad situation though. There are definite perks. I mean, I can take leave whenever I want, I just don't get paid for it.

I avoid taking sick leave because, well, I guess I prefer getting paid to watching bad daytime tv and not getting paid. Actually, that's probably why it's been so long since I took a day off for being sick. After watching the crap that runs during the day on US TV, I was like ok, I'd better be completely incapable of functioning the next time I decide to do this. There's only so many Maury Povich "who's the daddy?" paternity test shows that I can take watching, especially as an alternative to getting paid. I'd rather work with the flu.

I mean, when I officially had sick leave where I worked before, I wasn't actually allowed to take it in practice. I'll take this over that any day. Also, because I worked for a complete psycho whereas this is a wonderful nonprofit, but that is a story for another day.

[pittpurple]

Jul 25, 2012 12:44:23 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Jul 25, 2012 11:00:37 GMT -5 Wanderista said:

I'm one of those American stereotypes in that I don't get sick leave or paid vacation leave at all. However, I do get to work from home and they allow me to take working vacations, where I work X amount per day via their web server. That enables me to travel more than most Americans.

Are you a consultant? I honestly don't know anyone who has a full time job working for a company (not as a consultant or freelancer) who does not have paid vacation time, even if it is as little as 5 days.

Most people working in retail don't get sick leave. I didn't get any sick leave when I waitressed full time and I know a lot of people in the states who don't get sick leave, who get it docked from their pay - factory workers, etc. I think there's an expectation that most white collar jobs get some sort of sick leave but I had to earn mine after a year in my first job. So I know lots of people who don't get paid time off work.

[frlcb]

Jul 26, 2012 2:58:47 GMT -5 pittpurple said:

Jul 25, 2012 12:44:23 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Are you a consultant? I honestly don't know anyone who has a full time job working for a company (not as a consultant or freelancer) who does not have paid vacation time, even if it is as little as 5 days.

Most people working in retail don't get sick leave. I didn't get any sick leave when I waitressed full time and I know a lot of people in the states who don't get sick leave, who get it docked from their pay - factory workers, etc. I think there's an expectation that most white collar jobs get some sort of sick leave but I had to earn mine after a year in my first job. So I know lots of people who don't get paid time off work.

I should have clarified, because when I said for a company I didn't mean in retail or the hospitality industry, I meant a 9-5, 40 hour a week job. I realize it varies by company but I still stand by the fact that I don't know anyone personally who gets docked for sick pay. I do know people (and I as well at one job) who have to accrue vacation time, but the point is they got it. I am not saying it is ideal, or even good, but it is vastly different than saying that people in the US don't get ANY vacation or sick time, as a blanket statement.

[Cheesecake]

Jul 25, 2012 4:01:16 GMT -5 oneslybookworm said:

I will also say my response is directly related to our position, no one elses. We would not be able to live on a European salary and be able to take vacations for 6 weeks a year with our student loan debt...on top of housing costs, insurance, transportation, taxes, etc.

Late to the game, but this begged for a respobse. Now you're adding US style student loans to Euro incomes. That's a bad comparison. The very worst highest insane amount if SL I know of in NL is my friend who was in college 8 years, took out loans to pay for his partying and never graduated (if you graduate 30-100% of loans -depending on how much extra you took on top of tuition ) will become a gift). His total ti pay back was just under 20K.
Most people, after graduating, owe between 0 and 2.5K.

Not having to pay off massive SLs means an average Dutch income is sufficient to take nice vacations.

I have fat fingers, please excuse typos!

[oneslybookworm]

Jul 26, 2012 9:02:05 GMT -5 Cheesecake said:

Jul 25, 2012 4:01:16 GMT -5 oneslybookworm said:

I will also say my response is directly related to our position, no one elses. We would not be able to live on a European salary and be able to take vacations for 6 weeks a year with our student loan debt...on top of housing costs, insurance, transportation, taxes, etc.

Late to the game, but this begged for a respobse. Now you're adding US style student loans to Euro incomes. That's a bad comparison. The very worst highest insane amount if SL I know of in NL is my friend who was in college 8 years, took out loans to pay for his partying and never graduated (if you graduate 30-100% of loans -depending on how much extra you took on top of tuition ) will become a gift). His total ti pay back was just under 20K.
Most people, after graduating, owe between 0 and 2.5K.

Not having to pay off massive SLs means an average Dutch income is sufficient to take nice vacations.

I have fat fingers, please excuse typos!

Ok, that's fair, and I do agree...US style school is far more expensive than Dutch/European. So...think of it like this. Take 20k away from my $120k worth of debt and add the rest ($100k) to the housing costs (because I wasn't even talking about European housing costs, I was talking US...which is hella cheap in my area), and it STILL would keep us from having enough money to travel all over for six-weeks vacation.

But, that's also why I said I was commenting on my situation alone. For us, it would not be worth it...the extra vacation time would be useless because we wouldn't have the money to do anything with it (except sit at home and not work).

[clogged]

Ah, but see expating usually means you have student loans in one country and live in another. I doubt most of our board got through college loan free (the American students that is).

That's part of the problem. You are taking a lifestyle/expectation in one country and transplanting into another. Sometimes it works in your favor (in this example NL to USA move), or it works against (in this example, USA to NL).

And let's not forget that even educational certificates may or may not be approved in other countries. Expating has WAY more considerations than just a general move. So many farkin moving parts, it's a wonder any of us figure out an answer!

[oneslybookworm]

Jul 26, 2012 9:56:11 GMT -5 clogged said:

Ah, but see expating usually means you have student loans in one country and live in another. I doubt most of our board got through college loan free (the American students that is).

That's part of the problem. You are taking a lifestyle/expectation in one country and transplanting into another. Sometimes it works in your favor (in this example NL to USA move), or it works against (in this example, USA to NL).

And let's not forget that even educational certificates may or may not be approved in other countries. Expating has WAY more considerations than just a general move. So many farkin moving parts, it's a wonder any of us figure out an answer!

All I have to say is...thank God I don't have to do my own taxes. I think I'd quit at life if that were the case.

[Wanderista]

Don't get me started on the American student loan system.

Sorry for my vaguish answer last night, it might sound paranoid, but I don't want to go into tons of detail about the specifics of my job, this being the internet and all.

Suffice to say that particularly with the recession and lean economic times to be had in the last few years, white collar jobs in some cases started bringing in "low-to-no-frills" employment contracts. In a society without sufficient regulation of labor protections, companies can reduce their costs by sacking expensive older workers and replacing them with these new contracts. This is, I think, one explanation for the duration of the recession, a lot of companies are finding it more economical to keep the pared down and cheaper recessionary workforce, than to start spending more money by hiring more workers or adding "frills" to contracts. There isn't enough incentive for individual companies to expand right now.

What these companies don't seem to realize is that their "beggar-thy-neighbor" policies are prolonging the economic disease, delaying growth and protracting systemic recovery. And of course, a lot of Americans will say with some merit, that America's ability to manipulate its workforce more easily than Europe's, puts the US at an advantage when global labor markets are falling like dominoes.

[irish]

Jul 23, 2012 7:19:29 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

I would like to hear your thoughts/advice to get different perspectives.

If you lived in Spain or Greece right now, what would you do? Would you get off the sinking ship ASAP or would you wait and see?

Before the crisis, everything was pretty good. I enjoyed living here because of paid vacation, sick leave, and free health care. Now, with the crisis things are changing and it is crazy that every day there is something new we have to face. My DH still has his job and so far we have been very lucky. However, with the increase in sales tax, food prices, income tax, etc, at the end of each month we have less money than we did before.

Now we have to pay more for medicine and they are talking about implementing a copay. So basically we pay more taxes, but we get less.

What would you do if you were in my situation? Would you do anything specific financially? Would you just move if you lost your job or would you get out before?

Dulce,

Knowing if and when to jump ship from Spain is not a decision I would like to have to make. And we're only marginally better in Ireland...

Even if things got really bad I think it would take an awful lot of hardship for us to thing of moving country. Why? Because we have a good support network around us in the shape of family and friends. We enjoy the lifestyle here (I'm not talking about going out for meals and doing things that cost money - I'm talking about the fact that we live a minute from a park, we cycle to work, we can do things that don't cost much...)

Moving country does cost money, even if you get offered a relocation package with a new job. Not only that, it would be an investment in time setting up new networks of friends, which would lead to a more stressful pregnancy for you right now. Look at Anna in Paris - she has a 4/5 year old and the stress she went through trying to find a sitter for her daughter just so she could have a date night with her dh....

If I'm right in remembering your dh has family where you are - family are invaluable when you have small children. I'm not saying that it is impossible to live away from family with small children as clearly lots of people on here do that as do millions others in the world. But I'm saying if you have the option to have family, I'd take it any day!

I suppose in a nut shell what I'm saying is... stay... batten down the hatches, look at your weekly/monthly expenditure, find cheaper options where possible...

And good luck with the baby and focus on the positives... cheap wine again in another few months!!! (and you have a summer, which we are most certainly not having this year at all!!!!)

[elenetxu]

I just got back to the US and I'm in shock about the cost of living. The supermarket bill the other day was insane.

[crimsonandclover]

Jul 27, 2012 5:59:18 GMT -5 elenetxu said:

I just got back to the US and I'm in shock about the cost of living. The supermarket bill the other day was insane.

Absolutely. The cost of groceries in the US might actually balance out the cheap housing (in the area where I'm from) in the long run. After all, groceries are something that have to be bought even more regularly than the rent/mortgage has to be paid. Our grocery bill here in the States, even though my parents are wonderful and make/pay for dinner 3-4 nights / week, is at least 2x higher than in Germany. It's outrageous. But I also know that Germany has extremely cheap groceries, so it's sort of opposite ends of the scale.

[Cheesecake]

Grocery bills in the US scare the crap out of me too. That would really be a problem for us if we'd move to the US (especially since we'd likely end up in NYC, groceries there are just too damn expensive!) as I like to eat good quality, fresh, real, healthy stuff and that just costs a metric shit ton there.

In NL I currently pay about 10 euro's for a giant, giant bag of top quality, clean, produce which could easily feed 4 people for a week (I like to snack on veggies when waiting for DH to get home, or take salads or leftovers to the office), I spend about 20 euros a week on the highest quality meat you can get in this country (and yes, we eat meat every day, and no tiny little Dutch portions either).

And depending on where in the US you're from, housing isn't necessarily much more expensive here. (My friends/family in The Bay area and New York sure pay a LOT more for their housing than we do here in Amsterdam. Denver Metro area good neighborhoods are only just slightly less expensive than houses here (okay, prices took more of a dive there than here, so at this very moment, the difference might be larger, but it used to be fairly close - don't talk about property taxes though, those are 8 times more in CO than in NL)

I guess, to get back to dulcemaria's original question, whether it'd be wise to leave Spain for the US truly depends on where you'll end up, how much job and insurance security you'll have there and most of all, where you would LIKE to live. The fact that Spain will undoubtedly become a little more expensive might not change the fact that you love to live and raise your child there. Also, the fact that things will get more expensive now, will make sure that you guys (if you stay there) will still have a pension when you retire, and that the whole bill of Spain's financial mis-management won't eventually be your child's (if he or she (not sure I know what you're having) would like to remain in Spain.

Long story short. If you don't look at money, where would you want to live. Answer that first, and then see what you can afford, not the other way around.

[oneslybookworm]

Jul 29, 2012 14:26:28 GMT -5 Cheesecake said:

In NL I currently pay about 10 euro's for a giant, giant bag of top quality, clean, produce which could easily feed 4 people for a week (I like to snack on veggies when waiting for DH to get home, or take salads or leftovers to the office), I spend about 20 euros a week on the highest quality meat you can get in this country (and yes, we eat meat every day, and no tiny little Dutch portions either).

I am jealous of your veggie person/store!! Can I come live with you???

[anna7602]

Clearly I live in the wrong places, because I feel like groceries in both NYC and Paris are expensive.

To oneslybookworm and the vacation thing- I don't get why having more vacation time has to equal spending more money? I think you can actually spend less on lodging and airfare when you go to the same place for 2-3 (or even 4) weeks straight than if you go different places throughout the year. And I don't mind "staycations." Time off is time off and I will take any opportunity to relax, even if it's at home.

Back to the OP- Dulce, did you see the NYT article yesterday about Spaniards living with older relatives or moving older relatives in with them (from nursing homes) so they can add their pensions to the household income?

[clickerish]

YES! Why are groceries in the US so expensive? And why is it that for 20 euros, I can buy really fresh fruit and veggies for an entire week whereas in the US, when we do that, we spend over 100 dollars? Even accounting for the exchange rate, it's absurd.

Also why are the smaller vendors of food here cheaper whereas in the US, every time you go small, you pay extra for it? Nobody in Europe has to be told to buy local, because it's easier and usually cheaper. Not to mention, you actually know the guy who's selling you your pears for breakfast so you can chat first. And sometimes he gives you deals! In the US, I can't always afford to buy local, but here I can't afford to buy big chain. Bizarre.

And vacation time...in Europe, I can do vacation for an entire week for 300 dollars (not euros) including airfare. Where in the US is that EVER possible?

To be fair, I like some things in the US, like that waiting in line is often reduced and getting a driver's license is way easier.

[dulcemariamar]

Clickerish: 300 euros for a week??? Where are you traveling to?

[irish]

Jul 30, 2012 5:45:58 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

Clickerish: 300 euros for a week??? Where are you traveling to?

+1!!!

[crimsonandclover]

We've done 300€ / week for vacation - for each of us, though.