I mean there was a time in this country that you could NEVER disagree with the actions of Israel w/out being called a horrid name. Not that long ago at all.
I went to school with some people who were like this and it was exhausting.
Some people are thinking it; they just aren't posting it.
They're sort of posting it. When someone tells you that your sympathy for Palestine's position = being pro-Hamas, it's basically the same thing.
Or people who post that they're feeling personally attacked.
Here, let me post what I did yesterday: It's not always about you.
Big picture - I've always been against war just for war's sake. In this case the situation is so fucking messed up that I wish a 3rd party who has absolutely no stake in this fight would step in and figure out both sides. Except that can't happen. This whole fucked up situation has been going on since the crusades. At this point, my own personal wish is remove everyone from the area and nuclear bomb it to hell and back so that NO ONE can fight over that godforsaken ground. Because really, God left that area a long time ago to continue to allow people to commit these atrocities in His name.
They're sort of posting it. When someone tells you that your sympathy for Palestine's position = being pro-Hamas, it's basically the same thing.
Similar but different. "You just hate Jews" used to be the go to response for all this. Now it's "you just love terrorists."
I mean there was a time in this country that you could NEVER disagree with the actions of Israel w/out being called a horrid name. Not that long ago at all.
I think it's just that many people feel sympathy for the position Israel is in. They really can't win here. But what are they supposed to do with a terrorist group sitting on their door step launching rockets, kidnapping and murdering teens, and building tunnels so they can start the suicide bombings up again? To go back to Sue Sue's q, how would we react if Mexico was sheltering al Qaeda operatives from us? We would expect the gov't to just ignore it?
They're sort of posting it. When someone tells you that your sympathy for Palestine's position = being pro-Hamas, it's basically the same thing.
Or people who post that they're feeling personally attacked.
Here, let me post what I did yesterday: It's not always about you.
Big picture - I've always been against war just for war's sake. In this case the situation is so fucking messed up that I wish a 3rd party who has absolutely no stake in this fight would step in and figure out both sides. Except that can't happen. This whole fucked up situation has been going on since the crusades. At this point, my own personal wish is remove everyone from the area and nuclear bomb it to hell and back so that NO ONE can fight over that godforsaken ground. Because really, God left that area a long time ago to continue to allow people to commit these atrocities in His name.
Similar but different. "You just hate Jews" used to be the go to response for all this. Now it's "you just love terrorists."
I mean there was a time in this country that you could NEVER disagree with the actions of Israel w/out being called a horrid name. Not that long ago at all.
I think it's just that many people feel sympathy for the position Israel is in.
You can feel sympathy for the position Israel is in and still be mad about dead babies.
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
IDK, but I honestly find the world's reaction to this pretty fucking rich, considering it was the other nations of the world that helped create this situation.
I don't know how anyone looks at that proposed boundary map from 1947 and doesn't see "RED ALERT: THIS WILL BE A FUCKING DISASTER." I guess it's possible I have the benefit of hindsight, but I kind of doubt it. And that's just the weird, fucked up boundaries where you'd have to cross one territory to get to the other part of your country. Genius, really.
Israel and Palestinians were put into a horrible situation, an impossible one, and both sides have done things to make it worse. At the end of the day, when I hear these stories, sure I feel frustrated or angry at both Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. But mostly I feel impotent rage at the people who actually thought this was a good idea. Or thought it was enough for them to be able to wash their hands of the situation and step back and say "well I tried." Well, fuck you, because this was a powder keg from the very beginning and I have a hard time believing that no one realized that. I guess it doesn't matter because we can't go back in time, but it bothers me when it seems like the world's attitude is that this is simply Israel's fault, or Hamas's fault. I realize that the UN is involved, and blah blah blah. But no one shoulders any blame but Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. And really it seems like Israel gets the most of it, because they are stronger and in a better position. Do I agree with everything they do? Absolutely not. But it really seems like the rest of the world just throws up their hands and says "gosh, Israel, why do you have to be such BULLIES?!"
Then it peeves me some more because I do really feel like the Palestinians have been totally wronged, so it sounds like I'm defending Israel's actions. But I'm not and don't want to, because I don't agree with them either. It's just such a freaking mess.
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
Mexico is not an analogous example. The history is not the same.
But even if it were, and we bombed schools and kids and killed innocent people, I would be disgusted with us. Disgusted.
Just as I was with Iraq.
Just as the world was with us over Iraq.
Your point?
War is not conducted in a moral zone. In every war, innocent people, unarmed people, children, old ladies, die undeserved deaths. it's not a body count and it's not a OMG YOU KILLED BABIES. All wars kill babies. And men, and women, and good people, and bad. It's a means to an end. I'm not disgusted that ISRAEL KILLED BABIES. Hamas did too. I'm sick at heart that war continues, on both sides, and I blame Hamas for starting it and refusing to stop. I don't think Israel is wrong for what they're doing; they are entitled to defend themselves against this group and I expect they'll continue.
I don't think that the US dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong, either. Even though 100,000 civilians, unarmed, not armed forces, were killed. Terrible, sure. Wrong? Not to my mind.
I was with you for the most part until I got to the bolded. And I, uh, just wow. I honestly don't know what to say.
IDK, but I honestly find the world's reaction to this pretty fucking rich, considering it was the other nations of the world that helped create this situation.
I don't know how anyone looks at that proposed boundary map from 1947 and doesn't see "RED ALERT: THIS WILL BE A FUCKING DISASTER." I guess it's possible I have the benefit of hindsight, but I kind of doubt it. And that's just the weird, fucked up boundaries where you'd have to cross one territory to get to the other part of your country. Genius, really.
Israel and Palestinians were put into a horrible situation, an impossible one, and both sides have done things to make it worse. At the end of the day, when I hear these stories, sure I feel frustrated or angry at both Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. But mostly I feel impotent rage at the people who actually thought this was a good idea. Or thought it was enough for them to be able to wash their hands of the situation and step back and say "well I tried." Well, fuck you, because this was a powder keg from the very beginning and I have a hard time believing that no one realized that. I guess it doesn't matter because we can't go back in time, but it bothers me when it seems like the world's attitude is that this is simply Israel's fault, or Hamas's fault. I realize that the UN is involved, and blah blah blah. But no one shoulders any blame but Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. And really it seems like Israel gets the most of it, because they are stronger and in a better position. Do I agree with everything they do? Absolutely not. But it really seems like the rest of the world just throws up their hands and says "gosh, Israel, why do you have to be such BULLIES?!"
Then it peeves me some more because I do really feel like the Palestinians have been totally wronged, so it sounds like I'm defending Israel's actions. But I'm not and don't want to, because I don't agree with them either. It's just such a freaking mess.
From what I read about the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, other countries did not care at all about either side in this. But Western countries who draw borders willy-nilly never have cared about the consequences. They always just assume that this stuff will never come back to bite them....until it does.
War is not conducted in a moral zone. In every war, innocent people, unarmed people, children, old ladies, die undeserved deaths. it's not a body count and it's not a OMG YOU KILLED BABIES. All wars kill babies. And men, and women, and good people, and bad. It's a means to an end. I'm not disgusted that ISRAEL KILLED BABIES. Hamas did too. I'm sick at heart that war continues, on both sides, and I blame Hamas for starting it and refusing to stop. I don't think Israel is wrong for what they're doing; they are entitled to defend themselves against this group and I expect they'll continue.
I don't think that the US dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong, either. Even though 100,000 civilians, unarmed, not armed forces, were killed. Terrible, sure. Wrong? Not to my mind.
I was with you for the most part until I got to the bolded. And I, uh, just wow. I honestly don't know what to say.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were one of the lowest points in human history right up there with the Holocaust. People were turned instantly to dust. That is never okay.
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5, why that was? I mean, I know the historical/religious significance of the area, but if the land belonged to Palestine, how did... the world... decide that's where Israel should be? I admit to being completely ignorant of the post WW2 history here...
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5, why that was? I mean, I know the historical/religious significance of the area, but if the land belonged to Palestine, how did... the world... decide that's where Israel should be? I admit to being completely ignorant of the post WW2 history here...
IDK, but I honestly find the world's reaction to this pretty fucking rich, considering it was the other nations of the world that helped create this situation.
I don't know how anyone looks at that proposed boundary map from 1947 and doesn't see "RED ALERT: THIS WILL BE A FUCKING DISASTER." I guess it's possible I have the benefit of hindsight, but I kind of doubt it. And that's just the weird, fucked up boundaries where you'd have to cross one territory to get to the other part of your country. Genius, really.
Israel and Palestinians were put into a horrible situation, an impossible one, and both sides have done things to make it worse. At the end of the day, when I hear these stories, sure I feel frustrated or angry at both Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. But mostly I feel impotent rage at the people who actually thought this was a good idea. Or thought it was enough for them to be able to wash their hands of the situation and step back and say "well I tried." Well, fuck you, because this was a powder keg from the very beginning and I have a hard time believing that no one realized that. I guess it doesn't matter because we can't go back in time, but it bothers me when it seems like the world's attitude is that this is simply Israel's fault, or Hamas's fault. I realize that the UN is involved, and blah blah blah. But no one shoulders any blame but Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. And really it seems like Israel gets the most of it, because they are stronger and in a better position. Do I agree with everything they do? Absolutely not. But it really seems like the rest of the world just throws up their hands and says "gosh, Israel, why do you have to be such BULLIES?!"
Then it peeves me some more because I do really feel like the Palestinians have been totally wronged, so it sounds like I'm defending Israel's actions. But I'm not and don't want to, because I don't agree with them either. It's just such a freaking mess.
From what I read about the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, other countries did not care at all about either side in this. But Western countries who draw borders willy-nilly never have cared about the consequences. They always just assume that this stuff will never come back to bite them....until it does.
Seriously. Look at all the problems that Western imperialism and artificially created boundaries have caused in Africa. No one in the Western media talks much about that though aside from noting it as a historical point of interest. Just like no one really cares much about Palestine's problems unless they're harassing Israel. That is the real crux of the problem, I suppose. When they're not shooting off rockets, the rest of the world forgets they exist and they suffer in quiet desperation.
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5, why that was? I mean, I know the historical/religious significance of the area, but if the land belonged to Palestine, how did... the world... decide that's where Israel should be? I admit to being completely ignorant of the post WW2Â history here...
Well the Jews have important religious ties to the land (along with some other religions you may have heard of) and the Brits were like, well here's some of our old colonial holdings we aren't using and no one else is either so you can take them. Something like that?
Mexico is not an analogous example. The history is not the same.
But even if it were, and we bombed schools and kids and killed innocent people, I would be disgusted with us. Disgusted.
Just as I was with Iraq.
Just as the world was with us over Iraq.
Your point?
War is not conducted in a moral zone. In every war, innocent people, unarmed people, children, old ladies, die undeserved deaths. it's not a body count and it's not a OMG YOU KILLED BABIES. All wars kill babies. And men, and women, and good people, and bad. It's a means to an end. I'm not disgusted that ISRAEL KILLED BABIES. Hamas did too. I'm sick at heart that war continues, on both sides, and I blame Hamas for starting it and refusing to stop. I don't think Israel is wrong for what they're doing; they are entitled to defend themselves against this group and I expect they'll continue.
I don't think that the US dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong, either. Even though 100,000 civilians, unarmed, not armed forces, were killed. Terrible, sure. Wrong? Not to my mind.
So you are OK with Hamas killing innocent civilians as well, because, well, it's war?
War is not conducted in a moral zone. In every war, innocent people, unarmed people, children, old ladies, die undeserved deaths. Â it's not a body count and it's not a OMG Â YOU KILLED BABIES. All wars kill babies. And men, and women, and good people, and bad. It's a means to an end. I'm not disgusted that ISRAEL KILLED BABIES. Hamas did too. Â I'm sick at heart that war continues, on both sides, and I blame Hamas for starting it and refusing to stop. I don't think Israel is wrong for what they're doing; they are entitled to defend themselves against this group and I expect they'll continue.Â
I don't think that the US dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong, either. Even though 100,000 civilians, unarmed, not armed forces, were killed. Â Terrible, sure. Wrong? Not to my mind.Â
So you are OK with Hamas killing innocent civilians as well, because, well, it's war?Â
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
I like the idea of giving them Florida
can you imagine how the floridian rednecks would handle this? they've barely gotten over the civil war.
Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5, why that was? I mean, I know the historical/religious significance of the area, but if the land belonged to Palestine, how did... the world... decide that's where Israel should be? I admit to being completely ignorant of the post WW2 history here...
Well the Jews have important religious ties to the land (along with some other religions you may have heard of) and the Brits were like, well here's some of our old colonial holdings we aren't using and no one else is either so you can take them. Something like that?
"Welp, it's all over for our days of us fucking up the world with our colonialism, but let us blow you one last kiss, world." --- British Empire, 1948.
Seriously. Look at all the problems that Western imperialism and artificially created boundaries have caused in Africa. No one in the Western media talks much about that though aside from noting it as a historical point of interest. Just like no one really cares much about Palestine's problems unless they're harassing Israel. That is the real crux of the problem, I suppose. When they're not shooting off rockets, the rest of the world forgets they exist and they suffer in quiet desperation.
Which is why I understand their exploding, for lack of a better word, every now and again. All of that tension and frustration building up for generations, along with no good prospects for the future, is bound to cause some parts of that population to want to fight back. I don't understand why some people think Israel is the only party here with the "right" to protect themselves. It's more a fight for self determination for the Palestinians than immediate defense (against a much weaker enemy, though), but I still can see where they are coming from.
Which makes me hate Israel and love all terrorists everywhere, apparently. Because this is the exact relationship the US and Al Qaeda have had for generations.
I was with you until I got to this point. Are you saying that al Qaeda has a right to attack the US?
Maybe I am overly biased in favor of Israel. I feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian people, especially the refugees. But to vote in a hate group as your national government, I can't support that. There were moderates within Fatah, the political arm of the PLO, who were willing to recognize Israel's right to existence and to work with their leaders to create a more peaceful coexistence, and that's what led to the creation of Hamas in the first place. It's not like moderate Palestinian politicians didn't or don't exist. But they have a tendency to get assassinated by their brothers in arm.
eta: I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe it's time for moderate Palestinians to help heir own cause by ousting Hamas. Easier said than done, I know.
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5, why that was? I mean, I know the historical/religious significance of the area, but if the land belonged to Palestine, how did... the world... decide that's where Israel should be? I admit to being completely ignorant of the post WW2 history here...
It's long and complicated, but basically, in the late 1800s, there arose a movement (Zionism) that the Jews should get themselves a country to themselves on account of their having been shit on all over the world for a long time. There were several proposed locations for this (Uganda and Argentina among them) but ultimately they decided that hey, Palestine would be a good idea (God wants us to have it, and all that). So Jews who believed in this concept started moving there in the late 1800s in mostly small numbers. At the time, it was home to Arabs but occupied by the Ottomans, then later the British. During WWI, larger numbers of Jews began showing up there, and it became a problem (mostly between the British and the Jewish immigrants, but also some with the Arab natives). The British talked out of both sides of their mouth, promising the land to both sides, unofficially.
Then WWII happened, and the British were like, screw this, we have our own problems, we're outta here. The newly formed UN said "hey, here's an idea, how about we split it up so Jews get some and Arabs get some and Jerusalem will be international?" The Jews were like "yay! awesome!" The Arabs were like, "no way, all of this this is our land!" And then civil war erupted and the British were like ummm....backing away slowly....
Then the Jews were like, "well fine, we're just going to take all of it, now we're Israel!" The other Arab countries, like Egypt and Jordan, were like, "oh no you don't!" So they tried to invade so the Palestinians could keep the land (also to stop the influx of refugees into their own countries), because there was essentially no Palestinian military force at all. The US, not wanting the Soviets to win another country to their side in the new Cold War, was like "cool! we recognize you! (also, psst here's a bunch of arms shipments and $$$)" The Soviets were like "hey, we recognize you too!" The Arab countries lost and got pushed out and, well...it pretty much continues today except now the other Arab countries have their own problems and are like, sorry Palestinians, you're on your own, we'll send regular shipments of lip service.
I liked the Gawker "think piece" from yesterday that argued that Germany should have been the one to turn over land to the Jews after WWII. Not the Palestinians.
I like the idea of giving them Florida
I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy, let alone to the Jewish. LOL.
I was with you until I got to this point. Are you saying that al Qaeda has a right to attack the US?
Maybe I am overly biased in favor of Israel. I feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian people, especially the refugees. But to vote in a hate group as your national government, I can't support that. There were moderates within Fatah, the political arm of the PLO, who were willing to recognize Israel's right to existence and to work with their leaders to create a more peaceful coexistence, and that's what led to the creation of Hamas in the first place. It's not like moderate Palestinian politicians didn't or don't exist. But they have a tendency to get assassinated by their brothers in arm.
eta: I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe it's time for moderate Palestinians to help heir own cause by ousting Hamas. Easier said than done, I know.
Yeah guys, why can't we just make the Tea party go away?!
True but if you vote for them and then they pass laws you don't like, who do you have to blame for it? You knew what they stood for.
Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5, why that was? I mean, I know the historical/religious significance of the area, but if the land belonged to Palestine, how did... the world... decide that's where Israel should be? I admit to being completely ignorant of the post WW2 history here...
It's long and complicated, but basically, in the late 1800s, there arose a movement (Zionism) that the Jews should get themselves a country to themselves on account of their having been shit on all over the world for a long time. There were several proposed locations for this (Uganda and Argentina among them) but ultimately they decided that hey, Palestine would be a good idea (God wants us to have it, and all that). So Jews who believed in this concept started moving there in the late 1800s in mostly small numbers. At the time, it was home to Arabs but occupied by the Ottomans, then later the British. During WWI, larger numbers of Jews began showing up there, and it became a problem (mostly between the British and the Jewish immigrants, but also some with the Arab natives). The British talked out of both sides of their mouth, promising the land to both sides, unofficially.
Then WWII happened, and the British were like, screw this, we have our own problems, we're outta here. The newly formed UN said "hey, here's an idea, how about we split it up so Jews get some and Arabs get some and Jerusalem will be international?" The Jews were like "yay! awesome!" The Arabs were like, "no way, all of this this is our land!" And then civil war erupted and the British were like ummm....backing away slowly....
Then the Jews were like, "well fine, we're just going to take all of it, now we're Israel!" The other Arab countries, like Egypt and Jordan, were like, "oh no you don't!" So they tried to invade so the Palestinians could keep the land, because there was essentially no Palestinian military force at all. The US, not wanting the Soviets to win another country to their side in the new Cold War, was like "cool! we recognize you! (also, psst here's a bunch of arms shipments and $$$)" The Soviets were like "hey, we recognize you too!" The Arab countries lost and got pushed out and, well...it pretty much continues today except now the other Arab countries have their own problems and are like, sorry Palestinians, you're on your own, we'll send regular shipments of lip service.
Thanks to all of you for your explanations. The last history class I had was in high school and I was more of a science nerd who slept through history back then. LOL
True but if you vote for them and then they pass laws you don't like, who do you have to blame for it? You knew what they stood for.
But it's not the whole population.
No I agree. Which is why I was advocating in the other thread that Israel should bend over backwards to bring in aid and ease the blockade. They need to reach out to work with the Palestinians too.