Not that I couldn't be wrong but I have a VERY hard time believing a Black male teenager in St. Louis with no history of violence, graduated from high school and then assaulted a White police officer for no reason.
Every instance of this makes me so sick, and then it seems like nothing changes. I'm not exactly sure how to make major changes happen. I teach future officers, and always make sure to talk about racial profiling, and, at that point, at least, it makes them as sick as it makes me. But, far too few officers have courses that ask them to be introspective about their biases and how to overcome them, and, the culture of some departments must be incredibly strong.
I hate to say this because I realize it sounds totally elitist, but I wonder if requiring officers going forward to have 4 year degrees would make any kind of difference. Research shows that a college degree (well, the college experience) tends to make people more accepting of those who are different from them and reduces social prejudices. Here, though, only 25% of officers have a BA+. That's obviously not a panacea, and there would be lots of issues with implementing it (it'd cost more in the short run, for example,) but it could be a start.
Good point about how the videos were helpful in this case. I just had a bad experience this weekend with a group of people I was hanging with who were constantly taking their fucking phones out to document stuff (including my quiche at brunch?) and it was weird/annoying/sad.
Every instance of this makes me so sick, and then it seems like nothing changes. I'm not exactly sure how to make major changes happen. I teach future officers, and always make sure to talk about racial profiling, and, at that point, at least, it makes them as sick as it makes me. But, far too few officers have courses that ask them to be introspective about their biases and how to overcome them, and, the culture of some departments must be incredibly strong.
I hate to say this because I realize it sounds totally elitist, but I wonder if requiring officers going forward to have 4 year degrees would make any kind of difference. Research shows that a college degree (well, the college experience) tends to make people more accepting of those who are different from them and reduces social prejudices. Here, though, only 25% of officers have a BA+. That's obviously not a panacea, and there would be lots of issues with implementing it (it'd cost more in the short run, for example,) but it could be a start.
While I don't disagree with your idea on principle, in practice, I can't imagine why someone with a BA would want to then go through the police academy and not make enough to support themselves, let alone a family without having a second job.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Not that I couldn't be wrong but I have a VERY hard time believing a Black male teenager in St. Louis with no history of violence, graduated from high school and then assaulted a White police officer for no reason.
I also have a hard time believing an unarmed teen would try to tackle an officer into their squad car.
Not that I couldn't be wrong but I have a VERY hard time believing a Black male teenager in St. Louis with no history of violence, graduated from high school and then assaulted a White police officer for no reason.
Every instance of this makes me so sick, and then it seems like nothing changes. I'm not exactly sure how to make major changes happen. I teach future officers, and always make sure to talk about racial profiling, and, at that point, at least, it makes them as sick as it makes me. But, far too few officers have courses that ask them to be introspective about their biases and how to overcome them, and, the culture of some departments must be incredibly strong.
I hate to say this because I realize it sounds totally elitist, but I wonder if requiring officers going forward to have 4 year degrees would make any kind of difference. Research shows that a college degree (well, the college experience) tends to make people more accepting of those who are different from them and reduces social prejudices. Here, though, only 25% of officers have a BA+. That's obviously not a panacea, and there would be lots of issues with implementing it (it'd cost more in the short run, for example,) but it could be a start.
While I don't disagree with your idea on principle, in practice, I can't imagine why someone with a BA would want to then go through the police academy and not make enough to support themselves, let alone a family without having a second job.
I think it depends. I just looked up our local force. The starting salary for someone with a BA is higher than in my job (and their max salary is higher too). And their benefits are much much better (from what I've been told from friends on the force...that isn't as easy to find online).
But, every department is obviously very different.
"We've been reviewing the matter (since Saturday), today we officially opened an investigation into a potential civil rights violation," she said, noting that the decision was not motivated by community outrage. "Regardless of the media attention or the public’s attention to this matter, this is something that we would routinely do."
So basically, there might be a civil rights violation and it doesn't help to protest or try to get the attention of national government b/c the FBI will do what they do no matter the community outrage. Ah, remember they decided the Trayvon Martin killing wasn't racial in 2012? It was Trayvon's "attire and circumstances" that motivated the killing. This doesn't sound like the community in Ferguson is being heard objectively either, but instead, it rings "Don't bother to protest, we'll look into what we want without taking a community's concerns into play - especially in a place where there has been a history of racial issues with the cops."
Why couldn't the FBI come out and say, "Due to the circumstances around the case, we have decided to investigate to see if there were civil rights violations." That's it! Do they not have public relations people or even smart field staff that could tell you a community protesting and being heard and a FBI investigation opened based on said community concern = a good thing?!?!
Post by iammalcolmx on Aug 11, 2014 13:05:11 GMT -5
I don't think a BA is necessary if the issue is prejudices surely there are some mandated classes that can help with that? I don't think the issue is the police because everybody is shooting at black men not just the police. I mean sure police should be given whatever tools are necessary to assist with our natural preconceptions but to me there is a bigger issue at play here. It just so happens this time around the young person died at the hands of an officer.
I don't think a BA is necessary if the issue is prejudices surely there are some mandated classes that can help with that? I don't think the issue is the police because everybody is shooting at black men not just the police. I mean sure police should be given whatever tools are necessary to assist with our natural preconceptions but to me there is a bigger issue at play here. It just so happens this time around the young person died at the hands of an officer.
I don't think a BA is necessary. But I also don't think a few courses through the police department is going to enlighten many people, either.
Every instance of this makes me so sick, and then it seems like nothing changes. I'm not exactly sure how to make major changes happen. I teach future officers, and always make sure to talk about racial profiling, and, at that point, at least, it makes them as sick as it makes me. But, far too few officers have courses that ask them to be introspective about their biases and how to overcome them, and, the culture of some departments must be incredibly strong.
I hate to say this because I realize it sounds totally elitist, but I wonder if requiring officers going forward to have 4 year degrees would make any kind of difference. Research shows that a college degree (well, the college experience) tends to make people more accepting of those who are different from them and reduces social prejudices. Here, though, only 25% of officers have a BA+. That's obviously not a panacea, and there would be lots of issues with implementing it (it'd cost more in the short run, for example,) but it could be a start.
The thing is, departments have a hard enough time just finding recruits without a criminal record and able to pass the psychological screening. Unless people are willing to pay more taxes to pay police more, you're not going to get lots of high quality candidates with BAs.
Not that I couldn't be wrong but I have a VERY hard time believing a Black male teenager in St. Louis with no history of violence, graduated from high school and then assaulted a White police officer for no reason.
My default is no longer to believe the armed white man in a position of power after gunning down a young unarmed black man. There is no other side to the story because his innocent life was taken. I'm glad anonymous is on this.
There is no other side to the story? If the police's account is true (and I'm not saying it is because it sounds implausible to me) wouldn't that make him not an innocent victim?
Can someone tell me what is said to have happened? I read the police account but what's the other side? What are people who witnessed the event saying? the cop just randomly shot and killed this kid out of the blue?
There is no other side to the story? If the police's account is true (and I'm not saying it is because it sounds implausible to me) wouldn't that make him not an innocent victim?
If the officers account is correct, then he should have been arrested for battery of an officer. The fatal shots occurred when the victim was 35 feet from the car. Even if he did assault an officer, he is still innocent until proven guilty. That doesn't call for immediate execution. At 35 feet, I'd like to know how he was posing a threat to the armed cop.
Do we know if the other person with him was armed?
Can someone tell me what is said to have happened? I read the police account but what's the other side? What are people who witnessed the event saying? the cop just randomly shot and killed this kid out of the blue?
I just watched a video at lunch of a reporter talking to a lady who was there, who said the boy was standing with his hands in the air when the policeman fired on him from the vehicle. Whether it's true or not, I obviously don't know, but I've heard the "he had his hands in the air" and the "he was 35 ft from the police car" story from several different sources.
If the officers account is correct, then he should have been arrested for battery of an officer. The fatal shots occurred when the victim was 35 feet from the car. Even if he did assault an officer, he is still innocent until proven guilty. That doesn't call for immediate execution. At 35 feet, I'd like to know how he was posing a threat to the armed cop.
Do we know if the other person with him was armed?
I have not heard of any one being with the boy. (huh)
My default is no longer to believe the armed white man in a position of power after gunning down a young unarmed black man. There is no other side to the story because his innocent life was taken. I'm glad anonymous is on this.
There is no other side to the story? If the police's account is true (and I'm not saying it is because it sounds implausible to me) wouldn't that make him not an innocent victim?
ttt - When you say "not an innocent victim" you mean Brown was a victim, but not innocent if the police were right that a struggle happened. But the account that the Chief recounted was that there was a struggle in the car and Brown reached for the gun, but then the officer followed Brown as he left and still had his own gun and shot Brown multiple times - 30+ feet away from the car the officer shot an unarmed teen who was running from custody.
So saying "unarmed black man" was fine, but "innocent" was not... aren't all those picked up by the police innocent until proven guilty? Plus he was a young teen who might have been in trouble for taking candy... that sounds pretty innocent to me - stealing candy vs. a car or gun or killing someone is pretty damn innocent, no?
There is no other side to the story? If the police's account is true (and I'm not saying it is because it sounds implausible to me) wouldn't that make him not an innocent victim?
If the officers account is correct, then he should have been arrested for battery of an officer. The fatal shots occurred when the victim was 35 feet from the car. Even if he did assault an officer, he is still innocent until proven guilty. That doesn't call for immediate execution. At 35 feet, I'd like to know how he was posing a threat to the armed cop.
***deleted because I was a snatchy douche earlier and shouldn't have said that***
And to your point about salary, that is absolutely the case here. And the starting salary for incoming officers is dismal.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
It seems as a society that is our first reaction to a moment. I am weird about technology and how it infiltrates our lives.
I have no issue with people taking pictures when the riot police are out. Seems to me its a good idea to pull out a camera if you are in danger of having police officers whup your ass. In other circumstances I could see feeling some type of way about it.
I am absolutely delighted by how much we have on camera these days. Black folks have been telling people these stories since before Emmit Till. How many blacks boys are people going to kill before people believe this stuff really happens? And happens regularly?
At least now we are more likely to have these interactions on tape where people really can see how the police react even when we aren't being belligerent assholes.
Because I'm young and I'm black and my hat's real low? Do I look like a mind reader, sir? I don't know.
I am fucking tired of white people looking at me like I'm fucking crazy or a liar or racist when I say the situation is still fucked and when I teach my son not to get testy with the po po and wait for the judge before bothering with anything more than a measured, calm defense.
As the nation’s eyes turn to the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson and many African-Americans find themselves dismayed by yet another Black man slain by police, the description of the encounter that resulted in the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown released by St. Louis County police differs dramatically from eyewitness accounts.
While media stories focused on the looting and angry demonstrations that occurred on Sunday night in Ferguson in the aftermath of the Saturday afternoon slaying, many observers were perplexed by the somewhat implausible story recounted by St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar.
Belmar said the 18-year-old Brown, who was due to start classes next week at Vatterott College and was spending the summer with his grandmother, was walking in the middle of the street with a friend when a police officer pulled up next to the pair. But as the officer attempted to exit his vehicle, Brown suddenly pushed the officer back in his car and tried to take the officer’s weapon. A shot was fired inside the police car as the two struggled, according to Belmar, then the officer and the teenager got out of the car, and the officer shot Brown “more than just a couple of times.”
Belmar said the location of the scene extends roughly 35 feet from where the police car was parked to where the fatal shooting took place. Investigators found the shell casings that matched the officer’s weapon. Belmar said toxicology reports could take six weeks.
Police cars in Ferguson are not equipped with recording devices. The unidentified officer, a veteran of six years on the force, has been placed on paid administrative leave.
But Belmar’s story differs wildly from eyewitness accounts.
This is what Dorin Johnson, the friend who was walking with Brown, told Fox 2 News:
Johnson said he was walking in the street with Brown when the police squad car pulled up and the officer told them to “Get the eff onto the sidewalk.”
The two didn’t comply. Johnson said they told the officer, “It was not but a minute from our destination and we would be off the street.”
At that point, Johnson said, the officer reached “his arm out the window and grabbed my friend around the neck.”
“I witnessed the police chase after the guy, full force. He ran for his life,” witness Piaget Crenshaw said. “They shot him and he fell. He put his arms up to let them know that he was compliant and he was unarmed, and they shot him twice more and he fell to the ground and died.”
“This is another Trayvon Martin story,” she added. “A young man died before his time because of brutality from a different race. It’s racial profiling.”
Brown’s grandmother, Desiree Harris, said she saw her grandson running a few blocks from her house as she was driving through the neighborhood.
“He was running this way,” she said to the Associated Press. “When I got up there, my grandson was lying on the pavement. I asked the police what happened. They didn’t tell me nothing.”
Ferguson Mayor James Knowles said, ”We don’t know what happened, and there are lots of conflicting stories. Unfortunately, there will have to be some time taken to understand what happened. Hopefully, we will get to an understanding, and justice will be served.”
The FBI is reportedly assisting in the investigation, while U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has already instructed the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division to monitor the case.
Brown’s mother, Lesley McSpadden, told the AP that she would like to see the officer who killed her son “go to jail with the death penalty.”
After the shooting, Louis Head, Brown’s stepfather, carried a sign that said, “Ferguson police just executed my unarmed son!!!”
The family has retained the counsel of Benjamin Crump, the lawyer who handled Trayvon Martin’s case. In addition, Rev. Al Sharpton said in a statement that Brown’s grandfather asked him “to come to St. Louis in light of the police killing of his grandson to assist the family in achieving a fair investigation and justice.”
In reference to the looting and vandalism that resulted in 32 arrests, Antonio French, an alderman in St. Louis, said, “People have a lot of anger and are frustrated. They don’t have recourse in the system, and it happens often in this country, and it has boiled over. I think people are angry and looking for a reason to let it out tonight.”
Many media outlets posted a picture of Brown flashing what some interpreted as a gang sign—though it’s a common hand gesture used in the Black community. African-Americans saw this as the media’s attempts to portray Brown negatively, in the same way that media outlets started spreading unflattering pictures of Trayvon Martin after he was killed by George Zimmerman.
To protest, they started a meme on social media with the hashtag #IfTheyGunnedMeDown, which features people posting pictures of themselves in a flattering light—such as wearing their military officer’s uniform or college graduation gown—next to an unflattering picture of them holding a weapon or smoking.
Many of them asked, if the cops gunned them down, which image would the media use?
Post by cookiemdough on Aug 11, 2014 13:59:58 GMT -5
He was unarmed and a number of feet away from the officer, what justified lethal force? Jaywalking, stealing candy or even disorderly conduct towards a policeman doesn't seem to warrant that outcome.
Raw footage of an interview with the friend. You can stop at 2:30 if you don't want to see raw footage of Mike's mother being told by police her son is dead.
Every instance of this makes me so sick, and then it seems like nothing changes. I'm not exactly sure how to make major changes happen. I teach future officers, and always make sure to talk about racial profiling, and, at that point, at least, it makes them as sick as it makes me. But, far too few officers have courses that ask them to be introspective about their biases and how to overcome them, and, the culture of some departments must be incredibly strong.
I hate to say this because I realize it sounds totally elitist, but I wonder if requiring officers going forward to have 4 year degrees would make any kind of difference. Research shows that a college degree (well, the college experience) tends to make people more accepting of those who are different from them and reduces social prejudices. Here, though, only 25% of officers have a BA+. That's obviously not a panacea, and there would be lots of issues with implementing it (it'd cost more in the short run, for example,) but it could be a start.
The thing is, departments have a hard enough time just finding recruits without a criminal record and able to pass the psychological screening. Unless people are willing to pay more taxes to pay police more, you're not going to get lots of high quality candidates with BAs.
They have difficulty recruiting people who *could* pass the psych screen and don't have criminal records because there is a great deal of mistrust of police because of instances like this.
He was unarmed and a number of feet away from the officer, what justified lethal force? Jaywalking, stealing candy or even disorderly conduct towards a policeman doesn't seem to warrant that outcome.
He was unarmed and a number of feet away from the officer, what justified lethal force? Jaywalking, stealing candy or even disorderly conduct towards a policeman doesn't seem to warrant that outcome.
Believe it or not, yes.
Shooting for jaywalking? I am going to need some reasons as I see none.
His grandmother saw him running down the street, didn't see the po po, and I'm still supposed to believe he must have deserved it? I realize more evidence might come along to tell a different tale but at first blush, this is not good. Even reaching for a weapon shouldn't justify shooting at him if he didn't actually manage to get the weapon in his possession and ran off with it.
Also, if the encounter began and escalated the way witness accounts suggest, it sounds like he had reason to fear for his life.
But again, I realize more evidence might come out to the contrary.
And, I will just say, that my fears of this for lt are becoming almost irrational. My white privilege has allowed me to not ever have to deal with this. Ever. My brother had an incident in a bar where an off-duty dickhead, racist cop on a power trip made a comment about my brother's friend (A Sikh...I am sure you can guess what he said) and knocked my brother over and gave him a concussion from a kick. And, he is white. I can't imagine what had happened if he was not. Police need to check themselves something fierce if we EVER expect John and Jane Q public to do so. It angers me that my race sees this, gets outraged and then, pfft, what is Kim K doing.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.