Because to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this), "upper class" is an incredibly rarefied title of the American aristocracy/elite. I see that as something that applies to the maybe top .01% of the population. But really, we're just arguing semantics here. I have a different definition of upper class than some of the rest of you do.
That doesn't mean that I don't think that I don't think it is silly to be like "I make a lot of money but I feel average because have you seen my daycare costs?" or "I make a lot of money but I must be poor because you should see the houses that some of the other people in this town live in." I don't think how you feel changes how you compare to America at large. I just think that you can be pretty damn rich (far, far, far into the top third of income in America) without falling into what to me is the rarefied upper class. That's it.
In a world where we really were splitting society in thirds and the top third was "upper class" rather than "upper middle class" or whatever I would clearly be upper class. I just see "upper class" as something that's a little different.
It really is semantics. It makes no sense because it only goes one way. No one is calling the Kardashians lower class because they have no class, KWIM? By your logic, they too would be middle class. You can't be middle class if you're at the top. There's too much subjectivity in your definition, IMO. I hear what you're saying, but I think it's pointless to confuse an economic issue with social issues. If you're bringing in half a million a year, how is it relevant that you can't join a snooty golf course? Most of us are looking at this as straight economics.
But they have klass, OK?
That is all I have to offer to this debate. Carry on.
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
Again, putting words in my mouth. I have said nothing about how I "feel" except to say that duh, I am wealthy. I know and feel that we make a whole lot more money than most, and that we live a privileged existence. I just think that there's a very tiny group that falls into the "upper class" that I would bet none of us on this board will ever fall into. That's what upper class is to me. Which means that, in my view, most 1%ers (and everyone below) falls into upper middle, middle, lower middle, or poor.
But hey, if I said that the sky is blue, you'd probably tell me I'm wrong and try to make me out as a monster for thinking that, so...
I think you are confusing upper class with the top 1%.
What would be required for people to feel that they are upper class?
A couple of disclaimers. 1) I still maintain that the reason we're having this debate at all is because the U.S. was founded as a classless society. You can be as classy or classless as you think you are!
2) Most people at the top believe it's gauche to admit as much and most people at the bottom don't want to believe they're at the bottom. Hence the enormous, sprawling middle.
But I will go out on a limb and say we have many of the trappings of the upper class. I am in *no way* comparing myself to a Vanderbilt or Rockefeller. But when we talk about privilege in our society, I am privileged. I went to an elite university, check. My HHI is greater than 97% of Americans, check. I have social connections who may well serve in Congress someday and who could write me letters of recommendation, check.
I don't know what my "class" is (cough, classless society, cough) but I know what my privilege is.
What would be required for people to feel that they are upper class?
A couple of disclaimers. 1) I still maintain that the reason we're having this debate at all is because the U.S. was founded as a classless society. You can be as classy or classless as you think you are!
2) Most people at the top believe it's gauche to admit as much and most people at the bottom don't want to believe they're at the bottom. Hence the enormous, sprawling middle.
But I will go out on a limb and say we have many of the trappings of the upper class. I am in *no way* comparing myself to a Vanderbilt or Rockefeller. But when we talk about privilege in our society, I am privileged. I went to an elite university, check. My HHI is greater than 97% of Americans, check. I have social connections who may well serve in Congress someday and who could write me letters of recommendation, check.
I don't know what my "class" is (cough, classless society, cough) but I know what my privilege is.
I'll just say that we are well above the threshold listed here, but our county has some straight-up ghettos that I'm sure are bringing the average way down.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
If you look at the Academic Class models included the wiki link I posted earlier, they all include a class that is only the top 1%. According to those "facts" that 1-2% isn't on the same level as the 0-1%.
Come on. The average IT government contractor, at a manager level, living in NoVA may be in the top 5% of the country income wise, but they are not seen as being in the same social Class as George Bush (Jr or Sr). Hell a GS 15 in the DC area has a HHI, but they aren't in the same social Class as Caroline Kennedy. I don't really care what it's called, but there *is* higher class than income in the top 2 or 5 %.
Post by msmerymac on Sept 15, 2014 12:59:50 GMT -5
When we get into this discussion, I feel everyone is right. Because everyone is defining it differently.
I don't think someone who makes $300k/year and says they feel middle class is wrong, per se. And not because they can't hang in the same circles as the Kennedys.
Someone making $300k/year can probably afford to fully fund retirement, sock a ton in an HSA, pay for their child's entire college education, and live in a large home, relative to others. Someone making $50k/year does not have those luxuries. But strip out that kind of stuff, and you end up with someone who has less financial comfort (in terms of things like investments) and more modest THINGS (a $25 Target purse instead of a $2500 purse), but you still have people who make financial decisions like, "should we REALLY go out to eat again this week? Can we really afford a trip this year? Are we going to be able to renovate the kitchen next year?"
Compared with the 1% who control, what, 40% of the wealth in this country? The people who never have to think about the money they are spending. People who never fly on commercial airlines. People who have the money to design their lives so they never encounter anything they don't want to.
So while I might make twice as much as some people who qualify as "middle class" in my county, I certainly feel a lot closer to that than I do to those who are truly wealthy. I realize I am very lucky to have been able to CHOOSE to buy a house that was under the price we could easily afford - my neighbors who are a plumber and a SAHM probably didn't have that luxury. I'm lucky that I can save enough for retirement and for my kids to go to college. That I can continue to work AND afford to send my kids to daycare. That I can experience vacations. I get that. But I still worry about the cost of college, or the cost of moving to a bigger house when my family grows out of this one, or if I'll have to work until 70 to feel REALLY secure in my retirement savings.
And then, of course, the people who say, "STFU, upper middle class is not the same as actual middle class because you have choices," are right as well. It's just that the choices of the upper middle class (over about $90k in my county) are somewhat superficial when compared with the "choices" the truly wealthy make.
Let's just say we're all in this together in terms of out of control education and health care costs and the wealth disparity in this country.
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
If you look at the Academic Class models included the wiki link I posted earlier, they all include a class that is only the top 1%. According to those "facts" that 1-2% isn't on the same level as the 0-1%.
Come on. The average IT government contractor, at a manager level, living in NoVA may be in the top 5% of the country income wise, but they are not seen as being in the same social Class as George Bush (Jr or Sr). Hell a GS 15 in the DC area has a HHI, but they aren't in the same social Class as Caroline Kennedy. I don't really care what it's called, but there *is* higher class than income in the top 2 or 5 %.
Are we talking about class or are we talking about influence and power?
Would you say that Barack Obama is in a different class than George W. Bush because of his more humble beginnings?
I'm curious what your definition is. You don't seem to like any of the others offered.
You really don't think class in America has anything to do with breeding? I have not found that to be the case at all. There are private clubs, private schools, and various elite social institutions all over the US that suggest that who your family is still matters a heck of a lot when it comes to inclusion in certain upper class circles. I agree that a classless society may be what America as a whole aspires to, but that is not what we have.
But you can buy your way into those things.
Maybe if you're white you can?
As a black person (or minority) definitely not.
My friend did an internship at a country club in Chicago and even Michael Jordan wasn't allowed in her country club because he was black and would "ruin the image."
Post by mrsfarmer on Sept 15, 2014 13:16:24 GMT -5
No, we earn more. However, this bump only came in the last year or 2 for us. We are still playing catch up from the years when we were on the lower part of the scale for our county. Oh, yeah, and becoming parents to 2 children in the last year. We finally aren't falling behind anymore and can live on cash flow. By the end of the year it will feel like more.
My friend did an internship at a country club in Chicago and even Michael Jordan wasn't allowed in her country club because he was black and would "ruin the image."
I actually thought of that. But then, nobody would argue Michael Jordan isn't upper class.
Post by sunshineluv on Sept 15, 2014 13:30:51 GMT -5
My county is not listed, and it is the most populated county in my state. Well, I am not positive of that, it does include the most populated city in my state.
Weird.
But I looked at some other counties, I am not surprised that we have an income greater than middle class.
If you look at the Academic Class models included the wiki link I posted earlier, they all include a class that is only the top 1%. According to those "facts" that 1-2% isn't on the same level as the 0-1%.
Come on. The average IT government contractor, at a manager level, living in NoVA may be in the top 5% of the country income wise, but they are not seen as being in the same social Class as George Bush (Jr or Sr). Hell a GS 15 in the DC area has a HHI, but they aren't in the same social Class as Caroline Kennedy. I don't really care what it's called, but there *is* higher class than income in the top 2 or 5 %.
Are we talking about class or are we talking about influence and power?
Would you say that Barack Obama is from a different class than George W. Bush because of his more humble beginnings?
I'm curious what your definition is. You don't seem to like any of the others offered.
Did you look at the definitions I linked to? Because I agree with those.
Influence and power come from being in those 1% Social Classes, which are about more than just annual HHI. One can be in that social class without having influence and power, but in this country, it's not easy to get power and influence without being in the Top 1% first.
In America, Obama and Bush are both in that 1% Social Class, because while being an heir can get you there, it isn't a requirement. Now the Bushes might think they are better (being descended from royality and all) but that is like Gloria Vanderbilt looking down on Bill Gates because her family got to Upper Class first. But none of those people are in the same social class as your average GS 15 middle manager living in the DC suburbs, participating in the PTA, going their kid's neighborhood little league games, and worrying about how they are going to pay for their kid's college.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
Class doesn't always correlate perfectly with income. I don't know much about v's background so I can't say anything about that. A Yale grad who only makes 30k likely feels MC because it's not just about money.
We are apparently are not middle class. We earn more then the range for out county (we are about equal with the average HHI for our city), not bad for a couple of retail workers.
Post by teatimefor2 on Sept 15, 2014 14:08:43 GMT -5
Apparently, we are above middle class. I was actually surprised the range was so low, but this area has a lot of variance. In our town, I know we are on the lower side income wise.
I do believe class is made up by more than income and that having class can't be purchased either. You either are classy or are not. And yes, that is classy with a C.
You people are conflating the shit out of economic class and social class.
YES! And the Salahi reference is KILLING me. Absolutely killing me.
Because you believe Tarek Salahi is economically upper class or socially upper class?
And I used them because they were (he is) a resident of my county, and he was once in the 1% HHI for full time residents here (not even close to it if you include the part-time residents who own the horse-raising estates).
We moved from a DC suburb to (just barely) Western Maryland, and went from below middle class to above middle class. We are living like kings out here. Interesting!
You people are conflating the shit out of economic class and social class.
Totally. I thought about throwing the word "caste" out there earlier, but didn't want to confuse things further.
My town has such a back-asswards way of thinking about class. They're not a hierarchy, per we, but there are definitely divisions between neuveau riche and old money. New $$='s land rovers, tearing down an old house and building a McMansion, sending kids to private school. Old money ='s driving a 15 year old Chevy truck around your 5th generation 8,000 acre ranch, sending kids to public school and expecting the to work too. Totally different lifestyles.
I will add my usual rant about these things, which is that they focus too much on COL and not enough on how your age affects where you sit in the overall income distribution.
Someone who makes $85K in King County, WA (Seattle) is at the top end of the middle income quintile. They're middle class compared to their peers. They might "feel" middle class because stuff is expensive. But they can do things by living there that you just can't do in much of the USA. They have access to more job opportunities. Really fantastic summers and yet nearby ski areas in the winter. Decent public schools. An extremely low violent crime rate, etc. The same goes for the other HCOL metro areas (DC, SF, NYC, Boston, LA). By that measure even though they're middle middle class locally, they might be upper middle class nationally.
BUT, once you factor in age things get tricky. Lots of people under 30 are in school or just starting their careers. Most people over 60 are retired and don't have all that much income, but they don't need as much either in some ways (but more in others, mostly health care).
If you look at median HHI by age (but not by COL), and only look at prime working-age housholds (30-54) you get something like $75 or 80k as the 50th percentile. Which I think is why people making at or just under 6 figures feel middle class no matter where they are. Because if you look at people who are working, that actually is middle class.
Whenever someone in the top 2-3% says they don't consider themselves wealthy because they're not in the top 1%, it just makes me think they've spent too much time with people who are exactly like them and have no idea how the bottom 95% actually lives.
It comes from the fact that the top-end of the income distribution has become crazy skewed at the high end. If you are in the top 3%, you probably know several people who are in the top 0.5%, a couple who are in the top .1%, and maybe one or two in the top .01 or even .001%. They live very different lives. So you have your biglaw job and a wife who's a charge nurse paying for two Jaguars, $300K in student loans, a giant mortgage, 3 kids in private school and at the end of the month you are paycheck to paycheck. So you say "I'm middle class; it's not like I've got a life of leisure living off dividends with three vacation homes, a Lotus, and a french-speaking nanny like Richie Rich in the mansion down the block!"
This is, of course, bullshit.
Even a generation ago, there was way less of an income gap between the top 5% and the 1%, .1%, .01% etc. So the social network for someone at the 5% range had way smaller gaps. Also, they had less income overall, too. Someone earning $400K/year has a better life than someone earning $200K, but not that much better. Someone earning $2m has a much, much, much different life.
No, we at twice the upper limit on just 1 income. But I grew up in or close to middle class & realize we're well above that point now. Hell when I first got married 10yrs ago I remember dreaming about owning a house worth $275k (what DHs boss' house was) & thinking it'd never happen. We had virtually nothing except my SL. Now we live in a neighborhood where most SFH are $800k+..which still blows our minds. I think being poor (like my mom grew up) or truly middle makes it easier to see the differences.