I love the anecdote about how Prince Philip (the Queen's husband) admonished Diana in a meeting before she and Charles got their divorce:
"If you don’t behave, my girl, we’ll take your title away." "My title is a lot older than yours, Philip."
NOT A COMMONER!
I apologize. I'm feeling spillover rage from another thread.
Philip was talking about Diana's "Her Royal Highness" title, which they DID eventually take away from her (after the divorce she became the first non-royal British princess in history, and Fergie is the other one) But she still had her Spencer title, which was older than the Prince title that Philip received from the Queen a few years after their marriage.
I've read conflicting reports on whether Diana, and also the Queen Mother, were indeed "commoners" or not. "Yes" because they weren't royalty before marrying their husbands ... "No" because they were members of the nobility as the daughters of Earls, and Diana and the Queen Mother are certainly of higher rank in their own right than Fergie or Kate were.
Post by pinkdutchtulips on Sept 18, 2014 15:26:59 GMT -5
I thought Fergie's only claim to nobility was that a relation of her's was the mistress to some King of England ... something w/ Georgiana the Duchess of Devonshire
Fergie's dad was Charles' polo manager which is how she met Andrew.
Oh no, I agree with you on the title. I was merely giggling about the fact that she's still a goddamned lady even if they took away her royal princess title.
Look, if we go with the idea that not inheriting a title in your own right makes you a commoner, the historic notion of the ton shrinks quite considerably. It would also mean having the break out every letter of patent to determine exactly who is and who isn't a noble and exactly when.
Like Diana's brother who inherited the earldom, was he a commoner until his father kicked the bucket?
I thought Fergie's only claim to nobility was that a relation of her's was the mistress to some King of England ... something w/ Georgiana the Duchess of Devonshire
Fergie's dad was Charles' polo manager which is how she met Andrew.
According to wikipedia, her family tree is peppered with titles, mostly viscounts and dukes.
I thought Fergie's only claim to nobility was that a relation of her's was the mistress to some King of England ... something w/ Georgiana the Duchess of Devonshire
Fergie's dad was Charles' polo manager which is how she met Andrew.
According to wikipedia, her family tree is peppered with titles, mostly viscounts and dukes.
Post by 2curlydogs on Sept 18, 2014 15:36:17 GMT -5
Irish subjugation under England started under Henry II and 1169. It's a really complicated history. There was a Lordship of Ireland. Then Henry VIII established the Kingdom of Ireland. Ireland is one of the Kingdoms in the United Kingdom as part of the Act of Union 1800.
Prior to that, though, yes, there were kings of Ireland. Several. And a high kingship.
I love the anecdote about how Prince Philip (the Queen's husband) admonished Diana in a meeting before she and Charles got their divorce:
"If you don’t behave, my girl, we’ll take your title away." "My title is a lot older than yours, Philip."
considering that Di's father was what .. the 7th or 8th Earl Spencer vs Prince Philip being the FIRST Duke of Edinburgh thx in large part to his WIFE being coronated Queen of England, et al, I find it hilarious that he would make such a comment
I thought Fergie's only claim to nobility was that a relation of her's was the mistress to some King of England ... something w/ Georgiana the Duchess of Devonshire
Fergie's dad was Charles' polo manager which is how she met Andrew.
I love the anecdote about how Prince Philip (the Queen's husband) admonished Diana in a meeting before she and Charles got their divorce:
"If you don’t behave, my girl, we’ll take your title away." "My title is a lot older than yours, Philip."
considering that Di's father was what .. the 7th or 8th Earl Spencer vs Prince Philip being the FIRST Duke of Edinburgh thx in large part to his WIFE being coronated Queen of England, et al, I find it hilarious that he would make such a comment
Yes, his British title was new but it's not like dude exactly comes from the slums of Europe. There's a reason he's Prince Philip - that's his own title as a prince of Greece and Denmark.
Which I suppose was his point. He was born a prince, she was made a princess.
Post by msmerymac on Sept 18, 2014 15:47:12 GMT -5
Look, compared with the other women they wanted Charles to marry, yeah, Diana was lower on the totem pole. Like Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg. (Or even compared with his mother's marriage to his father - even though Phillip had to give up the rest of his titles and convert to Anglicanism to marry Elizabeth.) So at the time, it was rather nice for the British people to have someone who was ENGLISH and who was a nursery school teacher, and felt more identifiable. But still, she was Lady Diana Spenser.
Then Kate came along and was like one more notch down the totem pole. "No, really, she's JUST like us. Except for the millions of dollars. So... like us but better."
considering that Di's father was what .. the 7th or 8th Earl Spencer vs Prince Philip being the FIRST Duke of Edinburgh thx in large part to his WIFE being coronated Queen of England, et al, I find it hilarious that he would make such a comment
Yes, his British title was new but it's not like dude exactly comes from the slums of Europe. There's a reason he's Prince Philip - that's his own title as a prince of Greece and Denmark.
Which I suppose was his point. He was born a prince, she was made a princess.
He had to renounce his original claims to Greece and Denmark and, I believe, his titles, when he married. So I literally think that his current title was bestowed by the Queen, but mbcdefg can answer that.
Yes, his British title was new but it's not like dude exactly comes from the slums of Europe. There's a reason he's Prince Philip - that's his own title as a prince of Greece and Denmark.
Which I suppose was his point. He was born a prince, she was made a princess.
He had to renounce his original claims to Greece and Denmark and, I believe, his titles, when he married. So I literally think that his current title was bestowed by the Queen, but mbcdefg can answer that.
Yes, he did. And was re-created as a prince by Elizabeth.
Still. I suppose when you're born into that level of entitlement....
considering that Di's father was what .. the 7th or 8th Earl Spencer vs Prince Philip being the FIRST Duke of Edinburgh thx in large part to his WIFE being coronated Queen of England, et al, I find it hilarious that he would make such a comment Â
Yes, his British title was new but it's not like dude exactly comes from the slums of Europe. There's a reason he's Prince Philip - that's his own title as a prince of Greece and Denmark.
Which I suppose was his point. He was born a prince, she was made a princess.
He renounced his Greek/Danish princely title before he married Elizabeth.
George VI created him "His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh" before the wedding.
Elizabeth created him a Prince of the United Kingdom a few years after they got married and she became queen.
His current title of Prince Philip does not reflect his birthright as a Greek Prince.
Splitting hairs is what makes Bitish peerage fun though. And the "Lady" was pure courtesy as an earl's daughter. Had she not married a title, shewould have been plain 'ole Mrs. Not sure/clear if her brother was cosidered titled before their father passed due to heir apparent status. But any younger brothers would have certainly been commoners like Diana.
The polls are open until 10GTM or 5 EST. Hopefully an update soon...
ETA: counts are underway. Report expected 5am GMT/12am EST
Look, compared with the other women they wanted Charles to marry, yeah, Diana was lower on the totem pole. Like Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg. (Or even compared with his mother's marriage to his father - even though Phillip had to give up the rest of his titles and convert to Anglicanism to marry Elizabeth.) So at the time, it was rather nice for the British people to have someone who was ENGLISH and who was a nursery school teacher, and felt more identifiable. But still, she was Lady Diana Spenser.
Then Kate came along and was like one more notch down the totem pole. "No, really, she's JUST like us. Except for the millions of dollars. So... like us but better."
according to the MM thread she was practically middle class.
Splitting hairs is what makes Bitish peerage fun though. And the "Lady" was pure courtesy as an earl's daughter. Had she not married a title, shewould have been plain 'ole Mrs. Not sure/clear if her brother was cosidered titled before their father passed due to heir apparent status. But any younger brothers would have certainly been commoners like Diana.
The polls are open until 10GTM or 5 EST. Hopefully an update soon...
He was Viscount Althorp, which I guess is a lesser title associated with the Earl Spencer title.
I didn't know that off the top of my head, I went to Wikipedia, lol. But a lot of higher titles have lesser titles (usually Viscounts) associated with them. Which is why Prince Edward's son goes by Viscount Severn, as Edward and Sophie didn't want their children styled Prince and Princess. Their daughter is styled the Lady Louise Windsor.
Look, compared with the other women they wanted Charles to marry, yeah, Diana was lower on the totem pole. Like Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg. (Or even compared with his mother's marriage to his father - even though Phillip had to give up the rest of his titles and convert to Anglicanism to marry Elizabeth.) So at the time, it was rather nice for the British people to have someone who was ENGLISH and who was a nursery school teacher, and felt more identifiable. But still, she was Lady Diana Spenser.
Then Kate came along and was like one more notch down the totem pole. "No, really, she's JUST like us. Except for the millions of dollars. So... like us but better."
according to the MM thread she was practically middle class.
Splitting hairs is what makes Bitish peerage fun though. And the "Lady" was pure courtesy as an earl's daughter. Had she not married a title, shewould have been plain 'ole Mrs. Not sure/clear if her brother was cosidered titled before their father passed due to heir apparent status. But any younger brothers would have certainly been commoners like Diana.
The polls are open until 10GTM or 5 EST. Hopefully an update soon...
He was Viscount Althorp, which I guess is a lesser title associated with the Earl Spencer title.
I didn't know that off the top of my head, I went to Wikipedia, lol. But a lot of higher titles have lesser titles (usually Viscounts) associated with them. Which is why Prince Edward's son goes by Viscount Severn, as Edward and Sophie didn't want their children styled Prince and Princess. Their daughter is styled the Lady Louise Windsor.
I assume Althorp was his courtesy title, not one inherited in his own right. So it would be the highest of his father's lesser titles, his to use but not literally or legally his title.
Iirc, only the current lord's children can use courtesy titles. If his heir is his nephew, that guy uses whatever title, courtesy or otherwise he is entitled to via his parents. Also, only the oldest child and heir uses the primary courtesy title. So the Duke of Dukeness's eldest son would be known as Viscount Viscountness and his brothers would be Lord SecondSonFirstName and Lord ThirdSonFirstName. Except that no one would call him Viscount. They'd call him Lord Viscountness. Only dukes got to be referred to as Duke all the damned time. For everyone, was just Lord Suchandsuch except I think in formal correspondence or formal announcement of title.
If your eyes haven't glazed completely over, the duke's wife is the Duchess of Dukeness, his eldest's son's wife is Lady Viscountness, the other brother's wives are Lady SecondSonFirstName and Lady ThirdSonFirstName. The unmarried daughters of the duke are Lady FirstName and Lady SecondName.
But admittedly, I could be not quite straight on some of that AND all of that changes I believe if the primary title is that of a viscount or a baron. Then the younger brothers are Mr's, the eldest daughter is Miss either Earlness or FamilyName and the younger sisters are Miss FirstName. The latter is the reason why in Pride and Prejudice Jane is always Miss Bennett while her sister is Miss Elizabeth.
Laugh all you want to but when you attempt to write novels set in the Regency era, it's important to get this shit straight (or straightish.)
Also complicated, the laws around who could marry whom. Apparently, you could marry your first cousin all day long but you could not marry your late brother's wife. I cannot recall when this changed.
He was Viscount Althorp, which I guess is a lesser title associated with the Earl Spencer title.
I didn't know that off the top of my head, I went to Wikipedia, lol. But a lot of higher titles have lesser titles (usually Viscounts) associated with them. Which is why Prince Edward's son goes by Viscount Severn, as Edward and Sophie didn't want their children styled Prince and Princess. Their daughter is styled the Lady Louise Windsor.
Also complicated, the laws around who could marry whom. Apparently, you could marry your first cousin all day long but you could not marry your late brother's wife. I cannot recall when this changed.
That was the basis (officially, anyway) for Henry VIII wanting his first marriage annulled. Isn't that taken from a biblical law?