I think the parents of Sandy Hook would also probably disagree with you. What if it was your kid's kindergarten class? Would you still fight tooth and nail for gun rights?
I don't know. I think you know me well enough to deduce that I do not take violent deaths lightly whatsoever. If it were my child I would probably want to light their murderer on fire. I would be (and am) incensed that these things were allowed to happen. That this is where we are as a people. I would wish deeply that the guns that the killer used had never been accessible to them. But would I wish that no civilian in this country were allowed to have a gun? I don't think so.
I pray that I never find out. I pray that no one else ever finds out. I wish we could stop this horrible "trend" forever. But I don't think taking guns away from law abiding citizens will stop it.
Then what do you propose as a solution? Aside from shutting down Facebook, anyways.
Until a few years ago I didn't know it was legal for Joe Schmo to own some of these military type rifles. But it seems like the majority of crimes committed, the weapons are just regular handguns.
With most of these highly publicized mass shootings these shooters are not criminals with prior records. Any person with no crim record could buy a gun pretty easy in most states.
Do you think guns should be completely outlawed for civilians in all 50 states? I just can't see that ever happening here.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Sept 30, 2014 14:05:06 GMT -5
It should be a hell of a lot harder to get a gun than to get a job. You get turned down for employment for writing a bad check or for having shitty credit. This is not okay. If I can't get a job but I can get my hands on a thing used ONLY TO KILL AND/OR SERIOUSLY INJURE ANOTHER ANIMAL OR PERSON? That's so goddamn backwards.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
I wonder if we can hold gun owners responsible for the use of their stolen weapon in a crime. There was an article in the local paper years back, and stolen guns are used in a seriously high percentage of solved murders. You have a responsibility when you own a gun, I think there needs to be legal ramifications to the gun owner if it is stolen. Guns need to be locked up. Fingerpalm locked cases or someshit.
I wonder if we can hold gun owners responsible for the use of their stolen weapon in a crime. There was an article in the local paper years back, and stolen guns are used in a seriously high percentage of solved murders. You have a responsibility when you own a gun, I think there needs to be legal ramifications to the gun owner if it is stolen. Guns need to be locked up. Fingerpalm locked cases or someshit.
I'm pretty sure they are. Unless they have previously reported it stolen.
I wonder if we can hold gun owners responsible for the use of their stolen weapon in a crime. There was an article in the local paper years back, and stolen guns are used in a seriously high percentage of solved murders. You have a responsibility when you own a gun, I think there needs to be legal ramifications to the gun owner if it is stolen. Guns need to be locked up. Fingerpalm locked cases or someshit.
I would just like to start with people who don't properly store their weapons. You leave your gun lying around the house and your kid shoots himself? Sorry, but you get charged. I'm so fucking tired of gun incidents being labeled as "accidents" when they were preventable in every way.
I wonder if we can hold gun owners responsible for the use of their stolen weapon in a crime. There was an article in the local paper years back, and stolen guns are used in a seriously high percentage of solved murders. You have a responsibility when you own a gun, I think there needs to be legal ramifications to the gun owner if it is stolen. Guns need to be locked up. Fingerpalm locked cases or someshit.
I would just like to start with people who don't properly store their weapons. You leave your gun lying around the house and your kid shoots himself? Sorry, but you get charged. I'm so fucking tired of gun incidents being labeled as "accidents" when they were preventable in every way.
Not that I disagree with you, but that same argument was used last week during the kids dying in hot cars debate. And was shot down by just about everyone.
I wonder if we can hold gun owners responsible for the use of their stolen weapon in a crime. There was an article in the local paper years back, and stolen guns are used in a seriously high percentage of solved murders. You have a responsibility when you own a gun, I think there needs to be legal ramifications to the gun owner if it is stolen. Guns need to be locked up. Fingerpalm locked cases or someshit.
I would just like to start with people who don't properly store their weapons. You leave your gun lying around the house and your kid shoots himself? Sorry, but you get charged. I'm so fucking tired of gun incidents being labeled as "accidents" when they were preventable in every way.
Yes. There was an article that went through the stories of I'm not sure how many children who accidentally shot themselves/their siblings, all because weapons in the home were not stored appropriately. It made me sick to read, and I made DH read it, too. I actually thank GBCN because it provides me with articles like those, as well as thinking of questions to ask people before we visit their homes. I know that I will ask FIL about guns in the home any and every time we go to visit. These are all preventable accidents.
Not that I disagree with you, but that same argument was used last week during the kids dying in hot cars debate. And was shot down by just about everyone.
What? People said it wasn't preventable?
One person in particular (I can't even remember who) said it was COMPLETELY preventable.
I just want these RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS to explain to me how they use their guns for protection from unexpected burglaries, home invasions, government take overs and general stranger danger if the guns are allegedly stored correctly (meaning the guns are in one, locked safe and the ammo is in another locked safe separate from the gun safe).
Do burglars/home invaders/ the government etc. really politely wait while they unlock both safes and load their weapons?
We own 2 handguns. The one is a .22, and it is for me to learn to shoot on before shooting the .40. It was important to me to have the smallest/easiest caliber to learn proper form, technique, etc. instead of trying to fight the kick of a .40 cal in addition to learning all of those things. They are both left in safes in our closet. My H travels for 8 weeks at a time, so I am home alone for an extended period of time with 3 very young kids. When I heard a loud, unfamiliar truck outside at 11 pm and peeked through the windows to see two men coming towards my door, yes, I went and got our gun and took it with me to the door when they knocked on it. I also spoke to them through the door; no way in hell was I opening it. However, this is a rare circumstance. I had time to prepare. I would be willing to bet that 99% of other encounters similar to this do not allow the home owner time to defend themselves, provided their weapons are secured appropriately.
We also own 3 hunting rifles and a shotgun, which are used explicitly for hunting. They don't even cross my mind as something I could use to defend myself; they are used to harvest an animal and that is their only purpose. Well, I guess they served a sort of defense and comfort when we came across a grizzly. In that same note, we do carry our .40 cal with us when we are out hiking or at our remote property in AK. Bears there are no joke, and we have kids to protect. However, we do have dogs as our first line of defense.
All that to say, I agree with you, that if weapons are stored the way in which you describe, they are not useful in an unexpected violent circumstance. This is why, as a gun owner, I can frustrate other gun owners. I do not think that all the guns should be mine. I think that there is absolutely zero justifiable purpose for an AR-15 type weapon in any civilian's possession. I am very lightly conflicted on the handgun instance, but that is due to our experiences in Alaska with the bears.
As referenced above, local student here shot another student in the school today. Someone commented on local news media, citing Twitter that it may have been over an iPad.
I just want these RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS to explain to me how they use their guns for protection from unexpected burglaries, home invasions, government take overs and general stranger danger if the guns are allegedly stored correctly (meaning the guns are in one, locked safe and the ammo is in another locked safe separate from the gun safe).
Do burglars/home invaders/ the government etc. really politely wait while they unlock both safes and load their weapons?
Some people don't own guns for these reasons. Some people own guns for a variety other reasons - sports, hunting, etc. We haven't purchased store bought meat, in any capacity, for over two years. We strictly hunt and harvest our own deer, turkey, and small game. We butcher all of our own meat and use nearly 100% of everything we kill. If we don't eat parts of it, our dogs usually are able to (organs, bones, etc.). We throw away very little.
Anyway, our guns are stored in a very pricey safe that is literally bolted into the floor. It would take at least 6 guys and high powered tools to break into or steal the safe. Our ammo is in a similar set up safe. They're both fire rated for over 8 hours. We have no kids and never have any kids in our house - but if we did, I feel our set up is 100% safe.
My view on this is, yes, guns are exceedingly easy to get in the US. That should be changed, definitely. Especially the process to have a handgun carry permit - that is ridiculously easy to get here. Classes should be required, for both handgun usage and general hunting. Safes should be mandatory, not just trigger locks.
Also, as it stands right now, you can sell used long guns (rifles, shot guns) privately - at garage sales, for instance - and you do not need to get the ownership transferred on the gun. You can, if you want, but it is not against the law if you do not. If you buy a gun commercially, it is registered in your name. Hand guns are required to be registered in new owners names, even if sold privately. But still, a rifle or shot guns are just as capable of killing and no registration is necessary. I do also agree that there is no need for 99% of the general population to own an automatic rifle - you can't hunt with them, you can only shoot them for fun I suppose...and I guess I don't understand how much fun one can have in that regard.
So yes, things need to change. But taking away all guns from all the citizens? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Canada, don't guns need licensed to a specific person? The way you get a hunting license here, you also get a gun license there? They are also pretty expensive, if I am correct. Here - all you need is $50 for a hunting license. There, I believe you need closer to $600 to get set up to go hunting with all the licenses/classes necessary.
I thought that if gun laws were EVER going to change in this country, it was going to be after Sandy Hook. What kind of motivation does this country need, if that didn't work?
Yea, you need to be licensed to own or transport a gun in Canada. My h had to go through some courses and I can't remember what he paid, but I think you're right about it being in the $500-$600 range. You cannot buy ammo of any kind without a license. And this is just for something like a hunting rifle. You can forget handguns. You CAN get a restricted license for handguns, but it's absolutely worthless because you can't transport a handgun without permission, and the only place you can shoot it is at a range.
Post by joshlyman on Sept 30, 2014 15:38:24 GMT -5
I hate guns and would be thrilled if we went the way of the UK and Australia.
I know we won't, but a girl can dream.
I still have a hard time processing the fact the so many people's response to Newtown was to go buy all the guns in case Obama wanted to take them away.
I just want these RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS to explain to me how they use their guns for protection from unexpected burglaries, home invasions, government take overs and general stranger danger if the guns are allegedly stored correctly (meaning the guns are in one, locked safe and the ammo is in another locked safe separate from the gun safe).
Do burglars/home invaders/ the government etc. really politely wait while they unlock both safes and load their weapons?
They don't.
Statistics show you are more likely to accidentally shoot someone or yourself (or commit suicide) with a weapon in your home than you are to use it on someone wishing you harm.
And yes, I get it isn't "locked and loaded" but you said "all I would need to do is get the gun out of the safe, push the clip the rest of the way in the handle, take off the safety, cock it (load the 1st bullet) and the gun would be ready"
That hardly seems to be the equivalent of 'not loaded' and stored seperately by even the NRA's definition.
It's ok - I agree to disagree. If I told you where the un-safed guns were, you would understand what I mean by them not being found by anyone, but I'm not going to on the internet. You are very passionate about your views, and I applaud that, but please stop trying to "prove your point" with me as your example. I have gone above and beyond to be a safe and responsible gun owner; it's not something that I take lightly.
I don't care where the "un-safed" guns are. If they are not secured in a safe they are dangerous, plain and simple.
I wonder how many accidental gun deaths occur in homes where the gun owners thought they would never ever be found.
Post by shostakovich on Sept 30, 2014 15:48:25 GMT -5
Okay, so even if society has changed and gun ownership hasn't (which, as PPs have pointed out, is a flawed argument), what if went something like this:
(1) Get (at minimum) semi-automatic guns out of the hands of citizens, (2) Figure out what ails our society?
That way, we are working to heal this flawed society of ours, and people aren't getting gunned down in the streets and at schools in the meantime. Walla and all that.
Also, I volunteer my city as tribute for sweeping gun restrictions. We had 15 shootings in a span of 14 hours this weekend. We're at over 1,300 shootings just this year. This number is down from this time last year - there were over 2,800 shootings total in my city last year.
It's from earlier this year, so some of the statistics aren't current. But there is this bit concerning illegal vs. legal firearms:
According to the ATF, almost all of the guns recovered at crime scenes were originally sold at retail stores by federally licensed firearms dealers (FFLs).15 Thus, unlike narcotics, guns begin as legal products in a legal marketplace.
Statistics show you are more likely to accidentally shoot someone or yourself (or commit suicide) with a weapon in your home than you are to use it on someone wishing you harm.
I am extremely disturbed that people go and grab their loaded guns and have them 'ready' in their house with their kids present for 'just in case'.
Unless you are a fucking trained sniper, I would think the average Mom is far more likely to hit her own fucking kids then take out the bad guys with the suspicious truck.
My kids were asleep in their beds, far from the front door, and I had two men on the opposite side of the door from me. I also had 911 dialed. It wasn't just a suspicious truck, it was 2 large unknown men who came in separate vehicles, one of which was a truck, who approached my door late at night, knocked on it, and proceeded to have an interrogation with me about who lived at the house.
My gun also is not loaded at all times; I loaded it for this instance only. So I didn't "go and grab [my] loaded gun" just as I stated earlier; I went and grabbed my gun, as well as the ammo, and proceeded to load it and chamber a round. The safety never came off, even at the door. And after they left I proceeded to take it back into my room, unload the gun, and return the ammo and gun in their separate safes.
Your calling me an average mom is insulting, you have no idea what kinds of trainings, certifications or experience I may or may not hold. But even more insulting is that I do not take having guns in my house with my kids lightly at all, but you seem determined to believe otherwise. They are stored in the most secure manner possible. My kids don't even know that we have guns.
You clearly cannot concede that perhaps there ARE responsible gun owners.
Yea, you need to be licensed to own or transport a gun in Canada. My h had to go through some courses and I can't remember what he paid, but I think you're right about it being in the $500-$600 range. You cannot buy ammo of any kind without a license. And this is just for something like a hunting rifle. You can forget handguns. You CAN get a restricted license for handguns, but it's absolutely worthless because you can't transport a handgun without permission, and the only place you can shoot it is at a range.
It'd definitely be a step in the right direction, and I think most law abiding gun owners would agree.
I just hate the "ban all the guns" argument. It is possible to have some compromise. I hate the "ban all the guns" just as much as I hate "ban all the abortions" people. There has to be some middle ground that doesn't leave one sides argument completely unheard.
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing resolution. It could start with a harder criteria to own any sort of gun. Then it could move to recalling certain types for non-compliance with a hefty sentence for those who don't. And then so on and so forth.
I don't know why it can't be broken down as such. Even if it's not as much as I would like, it would certainly placate me to see steps in the right direction.
I agree. Even as a gun owner, I definitely agree, and it is incredibly frustrating and disheartening to see zero change take place after Newtown of all instances.
It's from earlier this year, so some of the statistics aren't current. But there is this bit concerning illegal vs. legal firearms:
According to the ATF, almost all of the guns recovered at crime scenes were originally sold at retail stores by federally licensed firearms dealers (FFLs).15 Thus, unlike narcotics, guns begin as legal products in a legal marketplace.
My kids were asleep in their beds, far from the front door,
And kids never ever come downstairs when they hear something. And bullets definitely cannot go through walls or ceilings.
Even with civilian training, hell even with trained law enforcement training, by-standers are very frequently shot.
You cannot say with 100% certainty you would absolutely only hit your target.
And a wide array of gun death statistics would support that.
We're all on the same floor. 2 of my kids still sleep in cribs, which at this point in time they've never escaped from, and the oldest could have walked out. But I wasn't going to randomly whip around and shoot my kid because he came out of his bedroom. My gun was held facing the floor at all times while walking through the house.
No, I can't say that I wouldn't hit only my target, but I can guarantee that I wouldn't hit my kids in this instance.
Look, I'm not some asshole walking through the grocery store with a gun strapped to my hip. Please refocus your attempts. You are insulting me as a caregiver and mother to my children by implying that I do not keep them safe simply by having a gun in the residence. I absolutely 100% do not make the choice to have firearms in my home lightly. Firearms are kept in a separate safe from ammunition, which is also kept in a safe. Not only do my kids not know about our firearms, but they don't even know that there are safes in the closet in our room. I understand that you disagree with having them in the home at all, but you asked why people own handguns. I told you why. I also stated that 99% of the time, I would not (and neither would anybody else) have the opportunity to take the gun and ammo out of the safe prior to this instance, it was certainly an extenuating set of circumstances. I also stated that I am ok with there being no semiautomatic firearms for civilians, which, yes, would even include my handguns. What would you do in my situation? Call the police, gather up 3 kids from the dead of sleep and huddle in the bathroom?
My kids were asleep in their beds, far from the front door, and I had two men on the opposite side of the door from me. I also had 911 dialed. It wasn't just a suspicious truck, it was 2 large unknown men who came in separate vehicles, one of which was a truck, who approached my door late at night, knocked on it, and proceeded to have an interrogation with me about who lived at the house.
My gun also is not loaded at all times; I loaded it for this instance only. So I didn't "go and grab [my] loaded gun" just as I stated earlier; I went and grabbed my gun, as well as the ammo, and proceeded to load it and chamber a round. The safety never came off, even at the door. And after they left I proceeded to take it back into my room, unload the gun, and return the ammo and gun in their separate safes.
Your calling me an average mom is insulting, you have no idea what kinds of trainings, certifications or experience I may or may not hold. But even more insulting is that I do not take having guns in my house with my kids lightly at all, but you seem determined to believe otherwise. They are stored in the most secure manner possible. My kids don't even know that we have guns.
You clearly cannot concede that perhaps there ARE responsible gun owners.
And these men were actually trying to break in? Or?
The point is this is a cyclical and 360 issue. It's not just about gun control. It's just one of MANY things that needs to change for the safety and well being of the general public. Don't even get me started on how it's related to mental health, education, poverty, etc. It's all related. Fixing one will not fix the issue. We need to fix it all, or at least start making change towards.
I still don't know why they came to my door. I think they were there to collect a debt of some sort, but through my firm answers that who they were looking for did not live here and never had lived here as far as I know, as well as we don't receive their mail, they decided to leave. The police said it was an unconventional way to collect a debt and I was more than justified in calling them and being worried about who they were.
I agree that it is not just about gun control. But gun control *can* be implemented.