In my area (which is admittedly very conservative) the only talk about drinking and drugs is that stupid DARE program (or something similar to it). So I would be VERY surprised if anything was actually discussed about responsible use. it is all drinking and drugs are bad! "Health class" is just a few hours that is rolled into science class for a few hours one semester, not anything separate.
So I could definitely see headlines like that in my area. Heck, a good number of the parents won't let their kids even get the basic sex talk, which doesn't cover much, but even that it too much for them. I can only imagine how many would pull their kids over talk of responsible drug use.
Exactly, but just because people are against it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I think most of us can agree that comprehensive sex Ed is important so youth know the risks and consequences associated with having sex because THEY ARE HAVING SEX. The same goes for drugs. Youth should know the risks and consequences and harm reduction practices (akin to using condoms) because they ARE already using drugs.
But the reality is that if people are against it, it won't happen.
Do I think that making more information available on sex and drinking and drugs so that teens can make more informed decisions? Absolutely yes. But at the same time, I know that I am in the minority in my area. (note the emphasis on that last part).
Exactly, but just because people are against it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I think most of us can agree that comprehensive sex Ed is important so youth know the risks and consequences associated with having sex because THEY ARE HAVING SEX. The same goes for drugs. Youth should know the risks and consequences and harm reduction practices (akin to using condoms) because they ARE already using drugs.
But the reality is that if people are against it, it won't happen.
Do I think that making more information available on sex and drinking and drugs so that teens can make more informed decisions? Absolutely yes. But at the same time, I know that I am in the minority in my area. (note the emphasis on that last part).
TBH, I want my state to legalize SSM before MJ.
I see your point. But a lot of people are against, say, teaching evolution in schools, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't push for that information to be made available as much as possible.
We advocate so the minority gets stronger, and we educate so people who are uninformed can realize the real benefits of providing such information. It is possible, and I've seen it happen personally.
I've seen mothers and fathers who had advocated for abstinence only/zero tolerance stuff as a reaction to losing their child to an opiate overdose come around. They've come around to the point of training others how to administer naloxone and advocating for harm reduction and education because they realize that the lack of knowledge and education contributed to the death of their child.
I don't know - I don't think we should be encouraging people to smoke pot or letting companies make tons of $$$ off it. It's still not very good for you. I just don't think people should be going to jail for having it. That's the difference between legalization and de criminalization.
But it's not as if people aren't already making tons of money off of it though.
True. Is that worse than the Altria/Phillip Morrises of the world? I don't know.
I'm just not crazy about turning marijuana into the next tobacco. God knows cigarettes have wreaked enough havoc on this nation's health because a group of people wanted to make gobs of money completely legally. I'm really not convinced marijuana is any better.
I don't think it should be illegal and I think the drug war is and has been ineffective at best, and an absolute life-destroying disaster at worst. But I'm not convinced pot should be seen as any less harmless than cigarettes, and do we really take the "well kids are going to smoke anyway, so just accept that and try to persuade them not to" approach to that?
My H feels exactly the same. As for school curriculum on alcohol, if you weren't TIC, I'm even older than you so I don't know. I vaguely remember a lot of stuff in health class about the negative effects. Which I ignored m
Sent from the infernal device.
The environmental degradation going on in high MJ producing areas is astounding. It's enough for me to question legalization of marijuana as a whole. So maybe humans aren't terribly harmed? Or alcohol is worse? Okay. Accepted. But the harm to the environment is just phenomenal. In the end whether it's legal or not, cultivation will continue. So might as well legalize it and regulate the hell out of the industry. I suppose.
Everything I've read suggests that it's illegal grow operations that are the problem. They typically squat on land (sometimes in nat'l parks and forests), steal water, wipe out native species, introduce invasive species, dump pesticides and fertilizers, and leave a ruined mess when they're ready to move on. Or the cops find it and they burn it all out. They are parasites.
Legal operations do not look like that at all. Most of them are indoors, and the outdoor farms aren't any different from any other legal crop. In Colorado, at least, all the grow ops are inspected by the state.
I guess in regards to legalizing MJ, I don't really care one way or another. I just know that given the bullshittery in my state that surrounded/surrounds medical marijuana, the possibility of it being legalized are between slim and none.
And, TBH, I have other issues that concern/consume me more - like animal abuse, legalizing SSM and the eroding of women's rights by my state's legislature.
The environmental degradation going on in high MJ producing areas is astounding. It's enough for me to question legalization of marijuana as a whole. So maybe humans aren't terribly harmed? Or alcohol is worse? Okay. Accepted. But the harm to the environment is just phenomenal. In the end whether it's legal or not, cultivation will continue. So might as well legalize it and regulate the hell out of the industry. I suppose.
Everything I've read suggests that it's illegal grow operations that are the problem. They typically squat on land (sometimes in nat'l parks and forests), steal water, wipe out native species, introduce invasive species, dump pesticides and fertilizers, and leave a ruined mess when they're ready to move on. Or the cops find it and they burn it all out. They are parasites.
Legal operations do not look like that at all. Most of them are indoors, and the outdoor farms aren't any different from any other legal crop. In Colorado, at least, all the grow ops are inspected by the state.
What does "legal grow" even mean? In California legal and illegal depends on who is the county DA. It's a fucking mess. And so called "legal" operations can be just as nefarious as so called "illegal" ones.
And sorry. But the insatiable weed culture invites illegal grows. There is so much money to be had in this industry that of course there will be an underground economy. Blood diamonds. Blood weed.
And sorry. But the insatiable weed culture invites illegal grows. There is so much money to be had in this industry that of course there will be an underground economy. Blood diamonds. Blood weed.
I'm trying to understand this. Is weed worse than say...corn? I mean talk about insatiable (artificial) demand, right? I don't live in a place with tons of growers because we don't have your climate so this has been pretty well under my radar outside of discovery channel shows about illegal growers setting up shop in state parks.
As far as I know even back when everybody smoked cigarettes, tobacco was still a normal agricultural product - not something harvested in the dark by armed gunmen. Wasn't it?
We can talk about the Monsanto style of environmental damage or the issues with clearing new land for agriculture (such as the rainforest clearing going on to grow ethanol crops), but just crop vs. crop - how is MJ worse?
And sorry. But the insatiable weed culture invites illegal grows. There is so much money to be had in this industry that of course there will be an underground economy. Blood diamonds. Blood weed.
Well I can only speak to what happens in Colorado, which other states are looking to as a model. Our MJ is tracked and regulated "from seed to consumer". Legal commercial grows are absolutely defined, regulated and inspected.
And WTF to the rest? There is already an underground MJ industry. Legalizing weed cuts into that industry, not augments.
And sorry. But the insatiable weed culture invites illegal grows. There is so much money to be had in this industry that of course there will be an underground economy. Blood diamonds. Blood weed.
I'm trying to understand this. Is weed worse than say...corn? I mean talk about insatiable (artificial) demand, right? I don't live in a place with tons of growers because we don't have your climate so this has been pretty well under my radar outside of discovery channel shows about illegal growers setting up shop in state parks.
As far as I know even back when everybody smoked cigarettes, tobacco was still a normal agricultural product - not something harvested in the dark by armed gunmen. Wasn't it?
We can talk about the Monsanto style of environmental damage or the issues with clearing new land for agriculture (such as the rainforest clearing going on to grow ethanol crops), but just crop vs. crop - how is MJ worse?
I don't know anything about corn cultivation. I know a lot about marijuana though and it's positively destroying the environment in parts of CA.
I'm trying to understand this. Is weed worse than say...corn? I mean talk about insatiable (artificial) demand, right? I don't live in a place with tons of growers because we don't have your climate so this has been pretty well under my radar outside of discovery channel shows about illegal growers setting up shop in state parks.
As far as I know even back when everybody smoked cigarettes, tobacco was still a normal agricultural product - not something harvested in the dark by armed gunmen. Wasn't it?
We can talk about the Monsanto style of environmental damage or the issues with clearing new land for agriculture (such as the rainforest clearing going on to grow ethanol crops), but just crop vs. crop - how is MJ worse?
I don't know anything about corn cultivation. I know a lot about marijuana though and it's positively destroying the environment in parts of CA.
Ok. In what way? because of indiscriminate clearing? Excessive fertilizer runoff? What are we talking about here? I'm asking for more information because you mentioning is the first I've heard of this being a significant issue. Tell me more.
And sorry. But the insatiable weed culture invites illegal grows. There is so much money to be had in this industry that of course there will be an underground economy. Blood diamonds. Blood weed.
Well I can only speak to what happens in Colorado, which other states are looking to as a model. Our MJ is tracked and regulated "from seed to consumer". Legal commercial grows are absolutely defined, regulated and inspected.
And WTF to the rest? There is already an underground MJ industry. Legalizing weed cuts into that industry, not augments.
I said above I support legalization. But I don't think marijuana is this hippy dippy loving beautiful altruistic magical product that it is billed as. It's a commodity that will make a few people very wealthy and eventually will become some conglomerate of some big tobacco or chemical company at some point in the near future and it will all be at the expense of the environment. Rinse and repeat. Same American "success" story. Different day.
I'm trying to understand this. Is weed worse than say...corn? I mean talk about insatiable (artificial) demand, right? I don't live in a place with tons of growers because we don't have your climate so this has been pretty well under my radar outside of discovery channel shows about illegal growers setting up shop in state parks.
As far as I know even back when everybody smoked cigarettes, tobacco was still a normal agricultural product - not something harvested in the dark by armed gunmen. Wasn't it?
We can talk about the Monsanto style of environmental damage or the issues with clearing new land for agriculture (such as the rainforest clearing going on to grow ethanol crops), but just crop vs. crop - how is MJ worse?
I don't know anything about corn cultivation. I know a lot about marijuana though and it's positively destroying the environment in parts of CA.
You can't hold up California as an example of what LEGAL cultivation will look like. For starters, it's not exactly legal in CA. Sure, they've had a medical for a long time, but all the stoners without "legitimate" medical conditions are still buying from the illegal market. It may be easy to get an Rx, but then I hear people complain about how it's too easy. You can't have it both ways.
Again, you have to look to the two states with legal, recreational marijuana.
Well I can only speak to what happens in Colorado, which other states are looking to as a model. Our MJ is tracked and regulated "from seed to consumer". Legal commercial grows are absolutely defined, regulated and inspected.
And WTF to the rest? There is already an underground MJ industry. Legalizing weed cuts into that industry, not augments.
I said above I support legalization. But I don't think marijuana is this hippy dippy loving beautiful altruistic magical product that it is billed as. It's a commodity that will make a few people very wealthy and eventually will become some conglomerate of some big tobacco or chemical company at some point in the near future and it will all be at the expense of the environment. Rinse and repeat. Same American "success" story. Different day.
I guess I don't see the problem with this. Entrepreneural spirit, small business ownership, the American Dream! I wish we'd gotten into the business when it started up, but we missed that boat. Right now, we're looking to invest in states looking to legalize it in the next few years.
I don't know anything about corn cultivation. I know a lot about marijuana though and it's positively destroying the environment in parts of CA.
Ok. In what way? because of indiscriminate clearing? Excessive fertilizer runoff? What are we talking about here? I'm asking for more information because you mentioning is the first I've heard of this being a significant issue. Tell me more.
- fertilizer run off into watersheds with protected species. - much of the fertilizer is banned in the us, but illegally imported in. - destruction of sensitive forests and other areas some federally and state protected. - increase in wildfires - extreme water usage and diversion in a drought - and just general violence associated with the grows, shootings, etc.
Ok. In what way? because of indiscriminate clearing? Excessive fertilizer runoff? What are we talking about here? I'm asking for more information because you mentioning is the first I've heard of this being a significant issue. Tell me more.
- fertilizer run off into watersheds with protected species. - much of the fertilizer is banned in the us, but illegally imported in. - destruction of sensitive forests and other areas some federally and state protected. - increase in wildfires - extreme water usage and diversion in a drought - and just general violence associated with the grows, shootings, etc.
I have family in the us forest service and they have never seen it this bad on Ca land.
Ok, but won't full legalization and regulation akin to every other crop in the state address at least half of those issues??
I mean, yes, it will become just like any other legal crop - a money making regulated business. Farming has many environmental impacts. This is true. this has always been true. and you say that you're actually not opposed to legalization, so I guess...I agree with you? I'm confused at this point what you're actually arguing. I need to go back and reread.
- fertilizer run off into watersheds with protected species. - much of the fertilizer is banned in the us, but illegally imported in. - destruction of sensitive forests and other areas some federally and state protected. - increase in wildfires - extreme water usage and diversion in a drought - and just general violence associated with the grows, shootings, etc.
I have family in the us forest service and they have never seen it this bad on Ca land.
Ok, but won't full legalization and regulation akin to every other crop in the state address at least half of those issues??
I mean, yes, it will become just like any other legal crop - a money making regulated business. Farming has many environmental impacts. This is true. this has always been true. and you say that you're actually not opposed to legalization, so I guess...I agree with you? I'm confused at this point what you're actually arguing. I need to go back and reread.
My point?
My point is that the situation with marijuana is a giant ass mess and full legalization* will probably make it somewhat better. Maybe. Hopefully.
But Ca has had partial legalization for almost 20 years and it's not been pretty. And things seems to have gotten worse in those 20 years in these small rural communities, not better, in that time. As with all shifts in policy there will be positives and negatives and I want the public to be aware of the negatives that come with the rise in marijuana cultivation.
*there will never be full legalization. There will always be restrictions and regulations, as there should be, and because of that there will always be an underground criminal element to it, imo.
Ok, but won't full legalization and regulation akin to every other crop in the state address at least half of those issues??
I mean, yes, it will become just like any other legal crop - a money making regulated business. Farming has many environmental impacts. This is true. this has always been true. and you say that you're actually not opposed to legalization, so I guess...I agree with you? I'm confused at this point what you're actually arguing. I need to go back and reread.
My point?
My point is that the situation with marijuana is a giant ass mess and full legalization* will probably make it somewhat better. Maybe. Hopefully.
But Ca has had partial legalization for almost 20 years and it's not been pretty. And things seems to have gotten worse in those 20 years in these small rural communities, not better, in that time. As with all shifts in policy there will be positives and negatives and I want the public to be aware of the negatives that come with the rise in marijuana cultivation.
*there will never be full legalization. There will always be restrictions and regulations, as there should be, and because of that there will always be an underground criminal element to it
I just don't buy that. There isn't an underground tobacco or alcohol market. In CO, the underground market has shrunk, and we can pinpoint the reasons it still exists. Supply was too low, so the state increased allowable production. Taxes are also high, but we are looking to lower those because we are making so much money. But that's the difference between a $30 and $15 eighth. And I would like to point out that the illegal market here is comprised of indiviuals who are legally growing their own pot (because that's legal) but they are illegally selling it (because you need a license to sell). They are not clear cutting national forests; they are growing in their backyards or basements - legally.
My point is that the situation with marijuana is a giant ass mess and full legalization* will probably make it somewhat better. Maybe. Hopefully.
But Ca has had partial legalization for almost 20 years and it's not been pretty. And things seems to have gotten worse in those 20 years in these small rural communities, not better, in that time. As with all shifts in policy there will be positives and negatives and I want the public to be aware of the negatives that come with the rise in marijuana cultivation.
*there will never be full legalization. There will always be restrictions and regulations, as there should be, and because of that there will always be an underground criminal element to it
I just don't buy that. There isn't an underground tobacco or alcohol market. In CO, the underground market has shrunk, and we can pinpoint the reasons it still exists. Supply was too low, so the state increased allowable production. Taxes are also high, but we are looking to lower those because we are making so much money. But that's the difference between a $30 and $15 eighth. And I would like to point out that the illegal market here is comprised of indiviuals who are legally growing their own pot (because that's legal) but they are illegally selling it (because you need a license to sell). They are not clear cutting national forests; they are growing in their backyards or basements - legally.
Let's talk about CO in 20 years. I'm sincerely curious how it will play out.
Let's take Humboldt for example. It has probably the most lax grow restrictions in the state (the DA won't prosecute for anything under 99 plants with a medical card; 99 plants!!! Think about that!!!). YET despite that, Humboldt is the site of some of the most destructive grows anywhere in the state. Easing marijuana laws doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Yes, CA is a bit of a clusterfuck with regard to marijuana for the reasons pointed out.
I can tell you that for the states that actual drug policy reform folks are working in to legalize, they look at CA more as what NOT to do. Colorado is more so the model now. So the concerns about CA are legit, and the folks in the ground who come from the reform movement writing the legislation now are making sure not to recreate those issues elsewhere.
There are some places trying to do this without the backing of the well-informed reform folks, and in those cases, it's not working out too well. FL is a good example of that.
Let's take Humboldt for example. It has probably the most lax grow restrictions in the state (the DA won't prosecute for anything under 99 plants with a medical card; 99 plants!!! Think about that!!!). YET despite that, Humboldt is the site of some of the most destructive grows anywhere in the state. Easing marijuana laws doesn't necessarily mean anything.
It's not just about easing the law, but regulating every step of the process from seed to consumer. Regulations could help to decrease some of the negative agricultural Impact we may be seeing.
Yes, CA is a bit of a clusterfuck with regard to marijuana for the reasons pointed out.
I can tell you that for the states that actual drug policy reform folks are working in to legalize, they look at CA more as what NOT to do. Colorado is more so the model now. So the concerns about CA are legit, and the folks in the ground who come from the reform movement writing the legislation now are making sure not to recreate those issues elsewhere.
There are some places trying to do this without the backing of the well-informed reform folks, and in those cases, it's not working out too well. FL is a good example of that.
I appreciate your recognition that "legalization" in CA has been a clusterfuck of epic proportions. It really has. It has completely soured me on marijuana in general (well that and an unfortunate pot brownie experience in college). And that's my bias peeking through.
Yes, CA is a bit of a clusterfuck with regard to marijuana for the reasons pointed out.
I can tell you that for the states that actual drug policy reform folks are working in to legalize, they look at CA more as what NOT to do. Colorado is more so the model now. So the concerns about CA are legit, and the folks in the ground who come from the reform movement writing the legislation now are making sure not to recreate those issues elsewhere.
There are some places trying to do this without the backing of the well-informed reform folks, and in those cases, it's not working out too well. FL is a good example of that.
I appreciate your recognition that "legalization" in CA has been a clusterfuck of epic proportions. It really has. It has completely soured me on marijuana in general (well that and an unfortunate pot brownie experience in college). And that's my bias peeking through.
Yes, I completely understand this, and it's unfortunate that it's been pieced together in the way that it has. Of course the Feds have also worked hard to make an "example" of CA, which adds to the clusterfuckery.
I know that more work is being done to "fix" CA at this point. Within the next 5 years or so you should be seeing more legit regulation coming through as they work toward adult use (aka "recreational" use), and hopefully the problems that have soured you from marijuana (minus the unfortunate brownie incident) will begin to resolve.
I appreciate your recognition that "legalization" in CA has been a clusterfuck of epic proportions. It really has. It has completely soured me on marijuana in general (well that and an unfortunate pot brownie experience in college). And that's my bias peeking through.
Yes, I completely understand this, and it's unfortunate that it's been pieced together in the way that it has. Of course the Feds have also worked hard to make an "example" of CA, which adds to the clusterfuckery.
I know that more work is being done to "fix" CA at this point. Within the next 5 years or so you should be seeing more legit regulation coming through as they work toward adult use (aka "recreational" use), and hopefully the problems that have soured you from marijuana (minus the unfortunate brownie incident) will begin to resolve.
I don't have a rosey outlook. Some communities, including endangered wildlife habitats have been irreparably harmed. It's hard to undue the environmental destruction once it's been done. And all reform has been shot down so I don't see that changing anytime soon.
I think the only thing that WILL make a true difference is if consumers of weed begin sourcing their habits appropriately. Ethical weed vs blood weed needs to be a thing that buyers think about when they get into the marketplace.
Yes, I completely understand this, and it's unfortunate that it's been pieced together in the way that it has. Of course the Feds have also worked hard to make an "example" of CA, which adds to the clusterfuckery.
I know that more work is being done to "fix" CA at this point. Within the next 5 years or so you should be seeing more legit regulation coming through as they work toward adult use (aka "recreational" use), and hopefully the problems that have soured you from marijuana (minus the unfortunate brownie incident) will begin to resolve.
I don't have a rosey outlook. Some communities, including endangered wildlife habitats have been irreparably harmed. It's hard to undue the environmental destruction once it's been done. And all reform has been shot down so I don't see that changing anytime soon.
I think the only thing that WILL make a true difference is if consumers of weed begin sourcing their habits appropriately. Ethical weed vs blood weed needs to be a thing that buyers think about when they get into the marketplace.
I definitely agree with you on the sourcing. People need to be more informed about where the product is coming from, but that will be difficult without proper regulation. It WILL happen within the next five years. I think part of why it will happen is due to the very concerns you have. People are pissed, and the right kind of legislation with the proper regulations in place will address those issues. Once people become more aware of that, the tide will shift in favor.
I also want to point out that at least some of the destruction done to those areas has been the result of federal attempts to curb those operations. This includes setting fires, dropping toxic chemicals, and otherwise destroying plots of land. Tax revenue gained from better legislation can help CA to conserve the land that still good, and help repair some of what has already been destroyed.