I don't know whether or not I can say this as well as I'd like, but here goes, white girl to white girl:
I think that feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and taking offense are not useful. We benefit from a system of institutionalized (not only or even primarily personal) racism, and we perpetuate it, consciously or not, willingly or not, by continuing to participate in it, using racially coded language ("ghetto," "uppity"), and a host of other actions, large and small. And until we can recognize our ignorance and all of the small things that we unknowingly do or don't do that perpetuate racism . . . without feeling guilty and then retreating from the conversation. . . we're not moving forward.
Example: DW and I were driving into our (relatively diverse) neighborhood a few weeks ago and saw a white person (gender indeterminate, but we were mentally leaning female) walking alone. We asked each other whether we should offer the person a ride and then immediately realized that we had many, many times passed black and brown people (men, mostly) walking alone---and had never before considered offering a ride. I'm going to call myself out on my own racism there. Was it complicated by the gender thing? Maybe. But I'm still calling it racist. It's not my fault----I've absorbed suggestions that black bodies are more dangerous or threatening than white bodies---but it's my responsibility to recognize it .
I'm just using your very natural reaction as a springboard for my own reflection, here. But I think that sometimes doing or saying something racist doesn't mean that someone is a hateful, terrible person. Good people like me participate in systems of institutionalized racism, too.
This makes sense. Maybe I just need to redefine what "racist" means in my head I think I was more caught up on the term than the concept here, because I completely agree with and understand what you - and most others in this thread - have said about microaggressions/biases/assumptions that result in differential treatment.
Maybe "taking offense" was the wrong way to say how I'd feel anyway. I hope I wouldn't start yelling at someone who called me racist. I'd probably cry, lol. Treating people well and equally is very important to me and it would hurt my perception of myself if I was behaving in a way that was hurting others or making them feel like I valued them less than anyone else because of their race/culture.
I think this is a really good point that many more people need to realize. Racist isn't always just people being overtly horrible and prejudiced toward certain races, there is a lot more (like this or the cotton) that is still racist but most people blow off.
Just asking out of actual curiosity but where would you draw the line of between something being purely out of fashion and being a stereotype? I’m thinking the difference between the full sombrero getup intended as a stereotype vs a Aztec print sweater. Most people would probably say the Aztec print stuff isn’t perpetuating the negative stereotype and there’s no racist intent but it keeps getting brought up over and over again that the intent doesn’t have to be there. If a white girl really likes the look for a Mexican poncho or a kimono dress purely for the fashion, what makes something okay or not okay?
You really don't see a difference between this:
and this
?
I competely get that there's a huge difference but there's a ton of middle ground and where is that line drawn. I was thinking more of "ok, know 2nd picture is bad, I never would have thought twice about the first one (can't see it but I assume what it is)" but there's been several times stuff I wouldn't have initially thought of as racist being so and got to wondering if this was approaching insensitively and where is that line.
I’m not going to comment on the poncho/kilt/chopstick discussion, but thought I might toss out an example of how stereotyping can run both ways. My DH works in the home service industry. He works for a very small company that employs just a handful of guys. DH and I think one other guy are White, and the rest are Hispanic. One of the Hispanic guys when he sees DH, frequently says “Hey rich white guy.” One time DH said, “Dude, how is it that we do the same job yet I’m supposedly rich and you aren’t?” The Hispanic guy said that in his home country White American = rich. DH basically told him that sorry, our bank accounts beg to differ and we have not yet found our rich white money tree. To us, White does not = rich any more than Hispanic = poor, but to the Hispanic guy it does.
Are you saying the poncho can't be racist because some guy told your husband that people in his country perceived him as rich?
Or are you saying that it's ok to do racist things because some guy told your husband that people in his country perceived him as rich?
Imma let y'all have this today. After that cotton thread, I don't have any more statements of civil discourse to offer. I'm all about the language of sarcasm in this thread of foolishness.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Then again I had no sleep last night so what I said might not make sense either so whatever. But I think race is only a problem because people make it a problem. And eating with chopsticks is part of a culture just like dressing up to "represent" a culture, they're not just a tool.
If you call this racist than anyone eating with chopsticks is racist.
I vote not racist.
The bolded is, WORD FOR FUCKING WORD, what the racists on my local news Facebook page keep saying, over and over again, whenever the station posts an article about blatantly racist shit. When they covered the Ferguson protests, this exact phrase was used CONSTANTLY as a way to downplay the actual issues and instead attempt to detract from actual, systemic racism in this country.
I would like to know, too, what group of "people" it is that M thinks is the one making race a problem.
I competely get that there's a huge difference but there's a ton of middle ground and where is that line drawn. I was thinking more of "ok, know 2nd picture is bad, I never would have thought twice about the first one (can't see it but I assume what it is)" but there's been several times stuff I wouldn't have initially thought of as racist being so and got to wondering if this was approaching insensitively and where is that line.
There's nothing wrong with wearing styles of clothing influenced by other cultures. That's different than wearing a costume depicting another culture (or a stereotype of them). There are gray areas, because often you'll have shitty designers selling poorly or offensively designed clothing that looks more like a costume, or you will have people appropriating acceptable clothing into their costume, KWIM? I don't think there's a clear line, but generally speaking, if you are wearing something that you are wearing because it's "them", not because it's "you", then you've got a problem.
I competely get that there's a huge difference but there's a ton of middle ground and where is that line drawn. I was thinking more of "ok, know 2nd picture is bad, I never would have thought twice about the first one (can't see it but I assume what it is)" but there's been several times stuff I wouldn't have initially thought of as racist being so and got to wondering if this was approaching insensitively and where is that line.
It helps to diversify your media sources. I like Colorlines and The Root.
There's nothing wrong with wearing styles of clothing influenced by other cultures. That's different than wearing a costume depicting another culture (or a stereotype of them). There are gray areas, because often you'll have shitty designers selling poorly or offensively designed clothing that looks more like a costume, or you will have people appropriating acceptable clothing into their costume, KWIM? I don't think there's a clear line, but generally speaking, if you are wearing something that you are wearing because it's "them", not because it's "you", then you've got a problem.
Makes sense and I agree with that thinking. I just brought it up because there's been so many examples of "just because you don't think it's racist doesn't mean it isn't" and was wondering if some of these things crossed into that territory.
I competely get that there's a huge difference but there's a ton of middle ground and where is that line drawn. I was thinking more of "ok, know 2nd picture is bad, I never would have thought twice about the first one (can't see it but I assume what it is)" but there's been several times stuff I wouldn't have initially thought of as racist being so and got to wondering if this was approaching insensitively and where is that line.
It helps to diversify your media sources. I like Colorlines and The Root.
I’m not going to comment on the poncho/kilt/chopstick discussion, but thought I might toss out an example of how stereotyping can run both ways. My DH works in the home service industry. He works for a very small company that employs just a handful of guys. DH and I think one other guy are White, and the rest are Hispanic. One of the Hispanic guys when he sees DH, frequently says “Hey rich white guy.” One time DH said, “Dude, how is it that we do the same job yet I’m supposedly rich and you aren’t?” The Hispanic guy said that in his home country White American = rich, regardless. DH basically told him that sorry, our bank accounts beg to differ. To us, White does not = rich any more than Hispanic = poor, but to the Hispanic guy it does.
No. Being rich is not a negative stereotype. Sorry.
Well yeah. And I don't know what country this man was from, but compared to most of the world, White America IS rich.
But you must have shared it for a reason. What did you hope that we would take away from it?
To me this seems like a..."but ...reverse racism... " argument.... which I side eye. Hard.
I didn't take her statement as reverse racism or justification but an example of how they experienced racism. Not whether or not they are or are not rich but that the guys refers to him as rich white guy. Which if not racist...is still stereotyping.
I have no patience for racial slurs used against other races but I also don't think anyone is given a free pass to talk to white people as if we are all rich racists either.
I could be wrong and giving benefit of the doubt. It's just what I interpreted when I read it.
Guys you aren't being fair here. It must have been hard for downtonali 's husband to be mistaken for rich.
Well, I know from experience that it is insensitive and hurtful when I learn that people from other countries perceive me as rich just because I am white and American. I hear that, and I think, "you don't know me, you don't know my struggle with living with just one car and a two year old iPad that is really kind of heavy. Just because my dog food budget is more than the people food budgets for billions of people does not mean that I am rich."
People are soooooo judgmental, so it's totally OK that I spend the money I earn working approximately 15 minutes to buy some tacos from a guy that is dressed in such a cute little outfit!!!!!
To me this seems like a..."but ...reverse racism... " argument.... which I side eye. Hard.
I didn't take her statement as reverse racism or justification but an example of how they experienced racism. Not whether or not they are or are not rich but that the guys refers to him as rich white guy. Which if not racist...is still stereotyping.
I have no patience for racial slurs used against other races but I also don't think anyone is given a free pass to talk to white people as if we are all rich racists either.
I could be wrong and giving benefit of the doubt. It's just what I interpreted when I read it.
Guys you aren't being fair here. It must have been hard for downtonali 's husband to be mistaken for rich.
Well, I know from experience that it is insensitive and hurtful when I learn that people from other countries perceive me as rich just because I am white and American. I hear that, and I think, "you don't know me, you don't know my struggle with living with just one car and a two year old iPad that is really kind of heavy. Just because my dog food budget is more than the people food budgets for billions of people does not mean that I am rich."
People are soooooo judgmental, so it's totally OK that I spend the money I earn working approximately 15 minutes to buy some tacos from a guy that is dressed in such a cute little outfit!!!!!
Never mind. I erased my original response because it seems people are in a freaking witch hunt right now.
Anything I have said is not to say that the OP situation was not racist.
Ladies, my apologies if I said something wrong. I was just trying to participate in the discussion by relating an experience and nothing more. I've been trying to be more regular here by participating in MM discussions. I was not in any way trying to detract from the original conversation or make a bold statement. Again, apologies and I'll go back to lurking.
Gotdamn it you don't get to play victim here. This is why these discussions are so frustrating. The slightest bit of discomfort and you can remove yourself from the situation. That is privilege. Minorities don't have the ability to just disengage from racially insensitive remarks or treatment. Where would we go? Where would we live? What restaurants could we eat at? What TV shows could we watch? Own it. It doesn't mean you are a bad person, I don't even know you. But just slinking away and continuing life as if you have not been exposed to an issue is why shit never changes in this country.
To me this seems like a..."but ...reverse racism... " argument.... which I side eye. Hard.
I didn't take her statement as reverse racism or justification but an example of how they experienced racism. Not whether or not they are or are not rich but that the guys refers to him as rich white guy. Which if not racist...is still stereotyping.
I have no patience for racial slurs used against other races but I also don't think anyone is given a free pass to talk to white people as if we are all rich racists either.
I could be wrong and giving benefit of the doubt. It's just what I interpreted when I read it.
"Hey rich white guy" = either a) the truth. Maybe he is rich and he is white or b) a stereotype. Whichever it is, it is NOT racism.
"Rich white guy" is not a racial slur. I'm sure you're aware of what is a racial slur. I'm also sure that "rich white guy" isn't on that list.
Per the bold:
Is there a protocol for talking to white people? Must I refer to you as ma'am or sir? Should I step off the sidewalk if I see you coming my direction? Do I need to avert my eyes? Well, I may not think white people are all rich racists, but that doesn't mean some of them aren't assholes.
I didn't take her statement as reverse racism or justification but an example of how they experienced racism. Not whether or not they are or are not rich but that the guys refers to him as rich white guy. Which if not racist...is still stereotyping.
I have no patience for racial slurs used against other races but I also don't think anyone is given a free pass to talk to white people as if we are all rich racists either.
I could be wrong and giving benefit of the doubt. It's just what I interpreted when I read it.
"Hey rich white guy" = either a) the truth. Maybe he is rich and he is white or b) a stereotype. Whichever it is, it is NOT racism.
"Rich white guy" is not a racial slur. I'm sure you know plenty. I'm also sure that "rich white guy" isn't on that list.
Per the bold:
Is there a protocol for talking to white people? Must I refer to you as ma'am or sir? Should I step off the sidewalk if I see you coming my direction? Do I need to avert my eyes? Well, I may not think white people are all rich racists, but that doesn't mean some of them aren't assholes.
And I said in my post that if it's not racist it's stereotyping. So...because people are white it's okay to stereotype them, just not any other races? How about we all stop being fools and treat everyone with respect. I realize if you say hey rich white guy it's not racist but it's rude. If someone called me hey rich white girl I'd be inclined to tell them how I was dragged from drug house to drug house as kid and molested by multiple people and often went hungry. It wouldnt be right for me to say hey Mexican such and such even if whatever I say is true. It's just not cool.
I also realize that deters a bit from the man in a poncho in the OP but some people's posts are coming off as if people that are white can be on the receiving end of racism and that's crap.
Post by jerseyjaybird on Dec 18, 2014 13:35:58 GMT -5
Racism and stereotyping are not the same, or even really comparable. Racism is supported by several hundred years of ongoing history in which groups of people have been systemically and brutally oppressed. Does that mean that all white people have easy lives? Of course not, and I'm sorry for what happened to you. But there is a WORLD of difference between the stereotype that all white American men are rich and the legacy of American racism.
"Hey rich white guy" = either a) the truth. Maybe he is rich and he is white or b) a stereotype. Whichever it is, it is NOT racism.
"Rich white guy" is not a racial slur. I'm sure you know plenty. I'm also sure that "rich white guy" isn't on that list.
Per the bold:
Is there a protocol for talking to white people? Must I refer to you as ma'am or sir? Should I step off the sidewalk if I see you coming my direction? Do I need to avert my eyes? Well, I may not think white people are all rich racists, but that doesn't mean some of them aren't assholes.
And I said in my post that if it's not racist it's stereotyping. So...because people are white it's okay to stereotype them, just not any other races? How about we all stop being fools and treat everyone with respect. I realize if you say hey rich white guy it's not racist but it's rude. If someone called me hey rich white girl I'd be inclined to tell them how I was dragged from drug house to drug house as kid and molested by multiple people and often went hungry. It wouldnt be right for me to say hey Mexican such and such even if whatever I say is true. It's just not cool.
I also realize that deters a bit from the man in a poncho in the OP but some people's posts are coming off as if people that are white can be on the receiving end of racism and that's crap.
But you recognize there is a difference between and that and a negative stereotype right? Someone assuming rich white person doesn't increase the likelihood of poor treatment. Someone assuming black person is the "help" or a "thug" likely would result in some negative treatment. So yes rich white guy is a stereotype. I am just having a hard time getting the relevance in a thread focusing on negative stereotypes.
Racism and stereotyping are not the same, or even really comparable. Racism is supported by several hundred years of ongoing history in which groups of people have been systemically and brutally oppressed. Does that mean that all white people have easy lives? Of course not, and I'm sorry for what happened to you. But there is a WORLD of difference between the stereotype that all white American men are rich and the legacy of American racism.
This is true and I don't agree with racism. I grew up in a very culture diverse environment which I am grateful for. However because of where I lived, white was the minority and I got lashed out merely because I was white. I realize there are years of oppression for races, as a kid I didn't know the severity in the way I do now, but I also got treated like crap and called things I didn't deserve because of the mistreatment of others that I had no control over. Racism can be applied to anyone.
I've never dressed up as an insult to other races and it's never crossed my mind as something to do.