Intersectional feminism

[NitaX]

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

My GOD yes. 

We're expected to shoulder the burdens of EVERYTHING and not ever look as if the facade may crack. It's exhausting. There have been times when I wanted to go some where and have that long, cleansing cry, but I don't have TIME to have that cry. I've gotta keep it all in focus, drag myself into work, deal with the issues of my kids and add the troubles of extended family on top of it. Because - that's what we do. We're the great work horses of everything that there ever was and will be. 

I joked about this once at an old job that my black woman card would be taken if I ever cried. We don't. We can't be seen shedding a tear unless we're at a funeral. Exasperated? You better not show it. Be unflinching in your facial expression and be the rock of the entire people. 

Do white women get that treatment? I'd say no. Because y'all have movies about women having mental break downs and taking sabbaticals for a life crisis. Or - I can point to the stereotypical images of white women fainting when things get hard. Or the discussion of white virtue when you look at imagery of big, black scary men raping the pure Miss Jones. 

And this is why I agree 100% with Sou - you can never divorce being black from being a black woman. The view of the world when it comes to me will always be black first, woman second. 

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Mar 13, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

But it's not so wide that we aren't fighting for many of the same things. And given the acceptance of issues of motherhood into mainstream feminism, which ties so very closely to issues of socioeconomic disenfranchisement, I think there is a lot of overlap between what sou says her top issues are and what the top issues of feminists are.

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

This post made me feel really sad, and ignorant. Thank you for posting. Its not always pleasant to have your eyes opened, but it is always good to open peoples eyes.

[Deleted]

And the more that I actively think about it, I can't think of very many examples of when I've been truly worried about being a "stereotypical" woman whereas I often want to overcome the stereotypes of blacks.

[cookiemdough]

Mar 13, 2015 10:15:11 GMT -5 tiramisu said:

Thank you for sharing your perspectives and stories. cookiemdough yours was especially powerful and I'm wondering if it would be okay for me to use it, or at least parts of it, in the leadership class I teach. I try to teach about and spark thought about social justice issues, but I'm a white woman and despite everything I've learned, it only goes so far. Experiences, thoughts, etc. from all of you are so powerful and help more than just what I can come up with.

I am all for any discussion that even opens up that there is another perspective that is not being captured in discussions of feminism or equality

[pixy0stix]

Sometimes we need to know when to just sit back and listen.

[cookiemdough]

I don't think there is any right or wrong though. Just different. It doesnt mean there is no commonality but in the areas where there is not, let just discuss them and recognize them and leave it out there to marinate. I don't think you meant to do this, but the bridge to show our sameness is kind of what makes our struggles as black women a back burner issue instead of an "also" issue.

[cookiemdough]

Mar 13, 2015 11:57:18 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Mar 13, 2015 8:26:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Are they? I am not sure that is the case.

The part about being prized is a huge difference imo. For a white women, the condescension, the hair pats, the history of limited freedoms of voting because of perceptions of she should just focus on families and leave politics to the men who have the wisdom to make all the decisions is disgusting. But on the other side there is worth. You are worth protecting, you are worth building a family with, you are viewed as beautiful, you are worth being taken care of financially. You are desired as a partner in our country's culture, because men need you to run for elected office, they need you to demonstrate how great they must be by the great wife they were able to land, they need you to complete the image of the whole American Dream.

I can't say it feels the same to me. Sure you don't like it when someone opens the door because of implication of helplessness. I don't get the door opened for me because I am unworthy of consideration, respect, or worse.... I am just not seen. Historically we have had to hold so much together that we are viewed as unbreakable. No one, including black men, are worried about taking care of us or caring about our needs. And then when we are so downtrodden and at the breaking point we are labeled as the "angry black female". Your babies are prized and unworthy of abortion. Our babies are perceived as sucking the country dry through entitlement programs and our mothers are welfare queens. When we try to embrace our natural beauty we are viewed as less attractive without the enhancements that conform to the white standard of beauty. Yet when white women begin taking on plumper lips and bigger butts all the sudden those traits are awesome...but only on white women.

I get not all of this is feminism in nature, but those are the things that make us different in the way we perceive certain things. Flameful as it probably is for me to say, there is a lot of privilege in mustering up anger at "benevolent sexism". While those motivations by men may be rooted in sexism the end result are actions like opening the door for you, paying for your meal, buying you a house. My blackness makes me not even worthy of that level of sexism.

White women are not "protected"; they are infantilized.  Black women are animalized (for lack of a better word).  In neither case does the PERSON have agency of self or control of their identity.  Okay. That's it. This is going to explode and I'm not going to be part of it.

The use of protected was from the context of "benevolent sexism", but most of that paragraph was focused on your worth in society. In addition I think I acknowledged that being infantilized was disgusting. My point was trying to show the mentality behind both is sexist but the actions shown in benevolent sexism to white women are largely unrelatable to me. So my experience is hostile sexism and racism. There is no sexism where someone does something polite for the wrong reasons.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 13, 2015 12:20:39 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Mar 13, 2015 12:06:41 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Don't be out, read the thread. Bein' "out" doesn't help or move any of us forward.

I have read the thread.  AND I'm someone who legitimately is invested and cares about this issue and about the equality of ALL women.  Your comments were a conversation ender.  They were intended to shut me up and shut me down.  It worked.  

You need a time out. Not even corner time with cookies. You are derailing yet another thread with personal attacks.

[downtoearth]

Mar 13, 2015 11:47:04 GMT -5 @wandering said:

And the more that I actively think about it, I can't think of very many examples of when I've been truly worried about being a "stereotypical" woman whereas I often want to overcome the stereotypes of blacks.

Can you expand on this?  I'm not being glib.

I guess I understand some of the stereotypes of black women a little more, but what stereotypes of women (not based on race) would you not worry about so much?

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 12:25:55 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Mar 13, 2015 11:47:04 GMT -5 @wandering said:

And the more that I actively think about it, I can't think of very many examples of when I've been truly worried about being a "stereotypical" woman whereas I often want to overcome the stereotypes of blacks.

Can you expand on this?  I'm not being glib.

I guess I understand some of the stereotypes of black women a little more, but what stereotypes of women (not based on race) would you not worry about so much?

I don't worry about being seen as weak. Not in the least. No one thinks black women are weak.

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

so this thread is dead then?

[Velar Fricative]

What in the...?

Alrighty then. Beyond the shitshow parts this has been a very worthwhile read so far, thank you.

[Wrath0fKuus]

Mar 13, 2015 12:43:16 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

so this thread is dead then?

I hope not.  

Do I need to start a separate thread for white feels so that the women of color here feel more comfortable talking?  I think we went a little straight white dude on you.

[KateAggie]

Mar 13, 2015 12:45:34 GMT -5 Wrath0fKuus said:

Mar 13, 2015 12:43:16 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

so this thread is dead then?

I hope not.  

Do I need to start a separate thread for white feels so that the women of color here feel more comfortable talking?  I think we went a little straight white dude on you.

"White feels." Lmao. You need to tm that.

[josieposy]

Truthfully I can't add anything to this conversation other than offering my e-ears. This is something that I can't even comprehend because I have no experience here. I don't even have a gif for that.

So I'm just following along. I'm also sad to see a deactivation come out of it.

[wawa]

sbp deactivated? Over this? well. Ok.

Anyway, this is really eye opening. I think I actually get this now in a way I didn't before.

You guys have talked about the image of the black woman as the beast of burden, the pillar of her family, the community, etc - and just having to carry all that. I never really got how different that is from the typical white woman desire to prove herself as NOT weak (since that is our stereotype). Like, I feel like I can't break down and cry because then I'm proving "them" right - but...that's very different from the expectation that of course you wont' cry, because you don't get to have hurt feelings or frazzled nerves or any of it. It sounds almost closer to the emotional expectations put on men - except you also aren't allowed to get angry or hostile, which are totally acceptable "manly" things (for white dudes anyway). This makes sense with the whole black first, woman second thing - which I could never totally wrap my head around and just had to take at face value. I get it a little deeper now.

So thanks.

[Deleted]

As a black woman, I feel like I am never allowed to be upset or dissatisfied. If I do, I have to be very careful how I show that, especially in front of old white ladies because they will call the cops on me (literally that has happened to me, in a bank where I was upset that they'd fucked over my account once again. Fuck you very much, Bank of America.)

There is very much an attitude that if I get upset, I'm going to hurt someone. Even my own pastor and his wife treat me that way. They could be all kinds of pissed at me for legit reasons even and they won't come talk to me about it. But I've seen them rip other women who aren't black to shreds.

If I express even the least bit of irritation, the responses are amazing. It's especially bad in the south I think.

[downtoearth]

I was going to ask more questions, but I don't know if that is appropriate now since the thread sort of imploded.

But I do think this is insightful since I pretty much live in a place devoid of black people, so a lot of stereotypes black women have to deal with are just unfamiliar except in books and movies.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 13:07:04 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

As a black woman, I feel like I am never allowed to be upset or dissatisfied. If I do, I have to be very careful how I show that, especially in front of old white ladies because they will call the cops on me (literally that has happened to me, in a bank where I was upset that they'd fucked over my account once again. Fuck you very much, Bank of America.)

There is very much an attitude that if I get upset, I'm going to hurt someone. Even my own pastor and his wife treat me that way. They could be all kinds of pissed at me for legit reasons even and they won't come talk to me about it. But I've seen them rip other women who aren't black to shreds.

If I express even the least bit of irritation, the responses are amazing. It's especially bad in the south I think.

This kind of relaying of reality is vital, IMO, to always always always remember. That, in addition to what has been conveyed here already, is crucial to all of us. Thank you for sharing it. 

[IIOY]

Mar 13, 2015 12:48:46 GMT -5 josieposy said:

 I'm also sad to see a deactivation come out of it.

I'm angry.  You don't get to post in a thread designed specifically for WOC in a manner that denigrates a WOC's experience and then peace out when you are called on the carpet for doing so.  The very point of this thread is to give WOC a dedicated platform to explain the ways in which their experience is ignored by feminism.  Running away from that platform is counterproductive.  Just shush and listen.  Frankly, the irony of SBP chastising *anyone* for trying to shut down a conversation is just painful.

[andrealynn]

Despite the other nonsense, I want to thank you all for sharing your experiences. Even just the stories you have shared here have opened my eyes.

The idea of always having to be strong, calm, unflappable, etc, just makes me *tired.* I hate that you all have to live that on a daily basis.

[Deleted]

I have to go to work but I wanted to say this about the whole angry thing,

It really, really sucks to have that perception be the one you have to fight constantly. I fight it in school meetings where I'm perceived as an uneducated welfare mom who is too lazy to help her kids do better in school. I might be undereducated. I might have children by different fathers. But that doesn't mean I don't want what's best for my kids. I don't like being discounted because of the color of my skin and that's exactly what happens to black women and black mothers all over this country in so many circumstances.

I don't get to be pissed off at the grocery store because the default response is that I'm about to go off, black folks can't control themselves.

I don't get to be crabby at a PTA meeting because then I'm just an angry ghetto black woman who had kids too soon.

There are so many circumstances I could list where being black is the first problem and being a woman is far behind but I'm already late leaving here. I just wanted to say so before I left.

[ringstrue]

Question re: black first woman second. Did this influence your career choices? Often we hear about girls following different paths because they aren't encouraged or mentored like the boys are. Would you say this applied to you as well or is/was there also a race element that affected you first? Or did something completely different happen?

[josieposy]

Mar 13, 2015 13:14:28 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Mar 13, 2015 12:48:46 GMT -5 josieposy said:

 I'm also sad to see a deactivation come out of it.

I'm angry.  You don't get to post in a thread designed specifically for WOC in a manner that denigrates a WOC's experience and then peace out when you are called on the carpet for doing so.  The very point of this thread is to give WOC a dedicated platform to explain the ways in which their experience is ignored by feminism.  Running away from that platform is counterproductive.  Just shush and listen.  Frankly, the irony of SBP chastising *anyone* for trying to shut down a conversation is just painful.

I understand. At risk of turning this into a thread about how whiter-than-white josieposy feels, I just have a hard time watching people I like interact like that. I kinda want to invite everyone over for cocoa and movies and make it better somehow.

This is an important conversation. A few years back I had the unfortunate job of being somebody's supervisor (I'm not great at it). She was a WOC and I constantly overthought every single thing I said to her, because I was always wondering about my own internal biases.

[josieposy]

Also, I think everyone had made some amazing points in here. I just want everyone to know I do pay attention. It's not always all about gifs and smart-assyness for me.

[downtoearth]

Question: WRT relationships to other women, do you feel like you can be more authentically yourself (stereotype fitting or not) with other black women or do you feel the same judgment about stereotypes from within as without?

[cookiemdough]

Mar 13, 2015 13:19:17 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

I have to go to work but I wanted to say this about the whole angry thing,

It really, really sucks to have that perception be the one you have to fight constantly. I fight it in school meetings where I'm perceived as an uneducated welfare mom who is too lazy to help her kids do better in school. I might be undereducated. I might have children by different fathers. But that doesn't mean I don't want what's best for my kids. I don't like being discounted because of the color of my skin and that's exactly what happens to black women and black mothers all over this country in so many circumstances.

I don't get to be pissed off at the grocery store because the default response is that I'm about to go off, black folks can't control themselves.

I don't get to be crabby at a PTA meeting because then I'm just an angry ghetto black woman who had kids too soon.

There are so many circumstances I could list where being black is the first problem and being a woman is far behind but I'm already late leaving here. I just wanted to say so before I left.

I can so relate to this. The sad part about it is that it continues the unequal treatment, partially because we opt out of going to battle for things that are right or fair for us or our children. I feel immense guilt about this. I can't tell you the number of times I have had to talk myself down or rehearse how to say something in a calm tone when something happened at daycare or school etc. Because I know that if I say anything and it goes sideways then my concerns will be dismissed as an angry black woman who can't reasonable. Often I just stop going to certain establishments rather than confront the problem.

[Deleted]

I don't know about most of you, but I'm really getting fucking pissed off that you all can't even get MAD. Like legit mad, for totally reasonable situations, without fear of being seen as off the handle or even dangerous. I want you to get mad now any damn time you need to.

[sushi]

Mar 13, 2015 13:29:20 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Mar 13, 2015 13:24:30 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Question re: black first woman second. Did this influence your career choices? Often we hear about girls following different paths because they aren't encouraged or mentored like the boys are. Would you say this applied to you as well or is/was there also a race element that effected you first? Or did something completely different happen?

Hm. My parents set the bar at attorney, doctor, wife of attorney, wife of doctor. I wanted to be a broadcast journalist because of Oprah and that met their criteria for being worthy since Oprah was famous and rich, and that became my major freshman year. Then I realized I preferred writing to teasing my little bit of thin hair all big and dry with Aquanet, so I switched to print journalism. 

Thank you for answering this. I fear this thread is a shit storm, but I think it's a good question. If honest, I know I've partly considered my career based on how it represents women. And I've Italy hated my 2nd career for the same reasons