Woman kicked out of Planet Fitness is suing them.

[cville]

Mar 25, 2015 9:53:15 GMT -5 stellas said:

Mar 25, 2015 9:46:27 GMT -5 cville said:

It means that people with extreme viewpoints should be coddled and catered to, because progress is scary.

There is nothing about being transgendered that remotely resembles a person thinking that they are not a human/are 40 years younger/belong to a different race.  To draw an equivalency is debasing to transgendered people in such a patently offensive way it can be motivated by nothing other than A) bigotry; or B) crass carelessness in pursuit of argumentative "victory."

No. It means we either accept a certain level of discrimination in society (where that falls depends on the individual obviously, but do not kid yourself that you do not discriminate) or we don't. If even one individual is marginalized by a people, there is discrimination.

I don't even understand the content of your argument or how this response has anything to do with "deal with absolutes."

[underwaterrhymes]

Mar 25, 2015 9:53:15 GMT -5 stellas said:

Mar 25, 2015 9:46:27 GMT -5 cville said:

It means that people with extreme viewpoints should be coddled and catered to, because progress is scary.

There is nothing about being transgendered that remotely resembles a person thinking that they are not a human/are 40 years younger/belong to a different race.  To draw an equivalency is debasing to transgendered people in such a patently offensive way it can be motivated by nothing other than A) bigotry; or B) crass carelessness in pursuit of argumentative "victory."

No. It means we either accept a certain level of discrimination in society (where that falls depends on the individual obviously, but do not kid yourself that you do not discriminate) or we don't. If even one individual is marginalized by a people, there is discrimination.

Yes, it's true that everyone discriminates in some fashion.

But we're not talking about individual discrimination here. We are talking about widespread, systemic discrimination.

White people do not experience this. Heterosexual or non-transgendered white people ESPECIALLY do not experience this. Male heterosexual or non-transgendered white people REALLY REALLY do not experience this.

[stellas]

Mar 25, 2015 9:54:37 GMT -5 cville said:

To call transgendered identity "self-identified gender," as you are by using your purported "self-identified race or age" examples is a fundamental misunderstanding of what transgendered identity is. I am not transgendered. But I know it's more than looking in the mirror and thinking "you know, today I think I'd like to be a man." It's not "self-identified." It is the person's SELF.

Is that not an accepted term used widely? Excuse my memory. I am in no way attempting to imply that they have any choice in the matter. Think what you want of me, but I am certainly not a "they choose to be this way" person.

[smock]

Mar 25, 2015 9:55:42 GMT -5 cville said:

Mar 25, 2015 9:53:15 GMT -5 stellas said:

No. It means we either accept a certain level of discrimination in society (where that falls depends on the individual obviously, but do not kid yourself that you do not discriminate) or we don't. If even one individual is marginalized by a people, there is discrimination.

I don't even understand the content of your argument or how this response has anything to do with "deal with absolutes."

I think she's saying that trans people should just hold it?

[ninjabridemom]

Mar 25, 2015 9:54:37 GMT -5 cville said:

To call transgendered identity "self-identified gender," as you are by using your purported "self-identified race or age" examples is a fundamental misunderstanding of what transgendered identity is. I am not transgendered. But I know it's more than looking in the mirror and thinking "you know, today I think I'd like to be a man." It's not "self-identified." It is the person's SELF.

And the fact that genitalia is even included in this discussion is offensive. There are actually many transgendered people who are living as their true selves who have not had sex reassignment surgery, for whatever reason (financial, no desire to, etc). It's an entirely separate issue from being transgendered.

There isn't a crotch check at gendered bathrooms as they stand -- why impose that on a certain population?

And really, would anyone who's opposed to this locker room policy even CARE if they had sex reassignment surgery? I don't think that's the issue here. I think the issue is discomfort in an "other," in feeling threatened by "different," in being more comfortable with labels than human beings.

[ninjabridemom]

Also to give Stellas a little bit of credit, a lot of people lie where she does wrt this issue -- it's more complicated than LGB issues. I think it's about educating and I feel the transgendered population does a much better job. (ETA which doesn't excuse some of what she said of course, but please note she is noting that it isn't a choice and that is must be a complicated/painful issue -- many don't even get that far)

I'd start here: transequality.org

ETA2: This page actually addresses some of the concerns brought up in here: transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-transgender-people-faq

[cville]

Mar 25, 2015 10:00:35 GMT -5 stellas said:

Mar 25, 2015 9:54:37 GMT -5 cville said:

To call transgendered identity "self-identified gender," as you are by using your purported "self-identified race or age" examples is a fundamental misunderstanding of what transgendered identity is. I am not transgendered. But I know it's more than looking in the mirror and thinking "you know, today I think I'd like to be a man." It's not "self-identified." It is the person's SELF.

Is that not an accepted term used widely? Excuse my memory. I am in no way attempting to imply that they have any choice in the matter. Think what you want of me, but I am certainly not a "they choose to be this way" person.

Okay.  Then why are you equating it to someone having the false belief at age 40 that they are 5 years old?

And, for real, I have no idea now what you mean by "dealing in absolutes" and how if there's any discrimination at all in our hearts anywhere we should . . . not permit transgendered people to use the restroom for their gender?

[rosiebear]

Stellas, the examples you keep citing are delusions, signs of mental illness, perhaps.

Is that what you think of transgendered people? That they are as delusional as a 40 year old man who thinks he's really 5?

[pixy0stix]

Mar 25, 2015 10:18:25 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

Stellas, the examples you keep citing are delusions, signs of mental illness, perhaps.

Is that what you think of transgendered people? That they are as delusional as a 40 year old man who thinks he's really 5?

::touches nose::

[stellas]

Mar 25, 2015 10:18:25 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

Stellas, the examples you keep citing are delusions, signs of mental illness, perhaps.

Is that what you think of transgendered people? That they are as delusional as a 40 year old man who thinks he's really 5?

People used to classify transgendered people as mentally ill.

Who are you to call those who identify as a different race or age sick?

[stellas]

Mar 25, 2015 10:25:28 GMT -5 @aliciaroset said:

The real solution is genderless bathrooms for all.
Ps and vs everywhere!!

Pretty much, or private bathrooms for all.

[jodinia]

Mar 25, 2015 9:16:00 GMT -5 @aliciaroset said:

what does deal with the absolutes even meeeeeeean?

'Only Sith's deal in abolutes' -Obi Wan. 
Ok, I will see myself out now.

[margotmacomber]

Mar 25, 2015 10:28:40 GMT -5 stellas said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:18:25 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

Stellas, the examples you keep citing are delusions, signs of mental illness, perhaps.

Is that what you think of transgendered people? That they are as delusional as a 40 year old man who thinks he's really 5?

People used to classify transgendered people as mentally ill.

Who are you to call those who identify as a different race or age sick?

Well, that answers that question!

[pixy0stix]

Mar 25, 2015 10:28:40 GMT -5 stellas said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:18:25 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

Stellas, the examples you keep citing are delusions, signs of mental illness, perhaps.

Is that what you think of transgendered people? That they are as delusional as a 40 year old man who thinks he's really 5?

People used to classify transgendered people as mentally ill.

Who are you to call those who identify as a different race or age sick?

Nice spin.

However, we're not talking about how things used to be. We're talking about now. In the future, if society deems that we need to accommodate these people we will. 

[stellas]

Mar 25, 2015 10:34:47 GMT -5 margotmacomber said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:28:40 GMT -5 stellas said:

People used to classify transgendered people as mentally ill.

Who are you to call those who identify as a different race or age sick?

Well, that answers that question!

The question of your own personal discriminatory line in the sand?

Yep.

[NewOrleans]

omg.

[NewOrleans]

Mar 25, 2015 10:38:39 GMT -5 @aliciaroset said:

Tell me about a huge group of 40 year old men who think of themselves as 4 year olds and have been ruthlessly persecuted for it.

www.bronydoc.com/

[nomad100]

Mar 25, 2015 10:28:40 GMT -5 stellas said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:18:25 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

Stellas, the examples you keep citing are delusions, signs of mental illness, perhaps.

Is that what you think of transgendered people? That they are as delusional as a 40 year old man who thinks he's really 5?

People used to classify transgendered people as mentally ill.

And people used to classify women as property.  Times changes.  

What does the fact that transgendered people used to be classified as mentally ill have anything to do with anything?  

This "whole dealing in absolutes" as a rational for treating any group as "less than" is scary to me because having spent several decades on the earth have taught me that any absolutes are few and far between.  Same goes for "people used to."  People used to do all kinds of crazy stuff.  Didn't make it right.

[panbitch]

Mar 25, 2015 11:16:36 GMT -5 intentionalsnarkshark said:

Ahh, the classic Logan's Run Defense:

"Those of you supporting this marginalized group are actually the bigots because of some crazy nonsense I cobbled together, so now it's time for your robot brains to explode because of my awesome logic" strategy.

Wait there were ROBOTS in Logan's Run???  I just thought they were wormy kids who didn't like the olds, so they tossed them in a giant blender.

[WOT?*]

MrsBPO was here.

(Okay, I'll quit having fun with this now. Off to read the responses in the five prior pages.)

[Deleted]

Mar 25, 2015 10:44:52 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:38:39 GMT -5 @aliciaroset said:

Tell me about a huge group of 40 year old men who think of themselves as 4 year olds and have been ruthlessly persecuted for it.

www.bronydoc.com/

I am so glad to have read this thread only for this.

Carry on.

[panbitch]

Mar 25, 2015 12:01:22 GMT -5 intentionalsnarkshark said:

Mar 25, 2015 11:56:39 GMT -5 panbitch said:

Wait there were ROBOTS in Logan's Run???  I just thought they were wormy kids who didn't like the olds, so they tossed them in a giant blender.

I think it was just a giant computer, rather than a robot. But there is a crazy old cat man! So totally worth watching just for him.

I love the old cat man!

[panbitch]

Mar 25, 2015 10:44:52 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:38:39 GMT -5 @aliciaroset said:

Tell me about a huge group of 40 year old men who think of themselves as 4 year olds and have been ruthlessly persecuted for it.

www.bronydoc.com/

I'm getting this for DH, he's been accosting me about the geopolitical system of Equestria ever since the Magic of Friendship has entered our bedtime lexicon.  I told him to watch the episodes himself.  Now he can go to discussion forums.

[MWOS]

you know, if we're going to be discussing BIOLOGY like we're scientists or some shit, then we need to be specific. Genotype is the genetic component of an individual. Phenotype is the detectable expression of those genes. This woman has an X and a Y chromosome, and the detectable expression of them is female.

[suzyp]

So are we only concerned about transgender woman and the fear of maybe catching a glimpse of a penis?

Because you know, when this subject comes up, it is NEVER about the transgender man using the men's room.

[sharknado]

[sharknado]

Mar 25, 2015 12:26:11 GMT -5 TR said:

Mar 25, 2015 12:22:16 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I think all of this is ridiculous.

But then I'm of the opinion that we should have unisex bathrooms everywhere, because who fucking cares.

This reminds me, I need to check and see if Ally McBeal is on Netflix.

It is

[ninjabridemom]

Mar 25, 2015 12:58:59 GMT -5 suzyp said:

So are we only concerned about transgender woman and the fear of maybe catching a glimpse of a penis?

Because you know, when this subject comes up, it is NEVER about the transgender man using the men's room.

People's hangups about this are always about genitalia, and vs are less threatening than ps.

Sexism hurts men too!

[phdprocrastinator]

Mar 25, 2015 7:32:52 GMT -5 stellas said:

Things get sticky for me when we start being asked as a society to ignore biological realities. A person can dress as whatever gender they want, get whatever surgeries they want. It's their body. I don't care.

However, when I'm being asked to accommodate their desires in such a personal way as allowing a man in a women's changing area or be called a bigot, I get a little frustrated.

Every cell in his body tells me he's a man. He doesn't have to act like one, and I don't know where the line is in accommodating him, but I don't appreciate being considered hateful for accepting the reality that he is a man.

Am I a bigot for thinking that a white student who self identifies as black shouldn't be allowed access to scholarships for black students?

Am I a bigot for thinking a currently 40 year old man who self identifies as 5 years old shouldn't be allowed to stay in kindergarten until his natural death?

I think opening this door of perception vs. Physical reality enforced inclusiveness is going to be impossible to actually accommodate as a society.

Obviously, private business are at liberty to have whatever policies they so choose. I think this lawsuit is idiotic.

I'm not sure if it's been addressed as I'm on page two, but your examples tend to the absurd.

Gender us a social construct and therefore capable of being changed.

Age is a number and not capable of being changed. We, as a society, agree to educate children of certain agrees in certain grades. Mental age doesn't change this (although some would argue for mixed age classrooms).

Scholarships for certain minority groups are designed to help those who have historically been underserved due to their race. Race in this case is determined by an individual's ancestry. It is possible for a white person to emulate black culture and vice versa, but that doesn't change eligibility for the scholarship. Hence my friend who is biracial is eligible for scholarships for Hispanic different despite looking Irish (due to her her mother's side).


Gender norms are currently being questioned as people become more aware of the middle space that many people occupy. It's not black and white. We should reflect in our rationale for gender divisions in locker rooms and determine the solution that is most accepting, IMO.


Also: how do kids go through life not seeing genitalia of the opposite sex? Dd had been known to play peekaboo with us while we shower. And good luck going port by yourself. I don't think she's been scarred by it...

[margotmacomber]

Mar 25, 2015 16:00:44 GMT -5 phdprocrastinator said:

Mar 25, 2015 7:32:52 GMT -5 stellas said:

Things get sticky for me when we start being asked as a society to ignore biological realities. A person can dress as whatever gender they want, get whatever surgeries they want. It's their body. I don't care.

However, when I'm being asked to accommodate their desires in such a personal way as allowing a man in a women's changing area or be called a bigot, I get a little frustrated.

Every cell in his body tells me he's a man. He doesn't have to act like one, and I don't know where the line is in accommodating him, but I don't appreciate being considered hateful for accepting the reality that he is a man.

Am I a bigot for thinking that a white student who self identifies as black shouldn't be allowed access to scholarships for black students?

Am I a bigot for thinking a currently 40 year old man who self identifies as 5 years old shouldn't be allowed to stay in kindergarten until his natural death?

I think opening this door of perception vs. Physical reality enforced inclusiveness is going to be impossible to actually accommodate as a society.

Obviously, private business are at liberty to have whatever policies they so choose. I think this lawsuit is idiotic.

I'm not sure if it's been addressed as I'm on page two, but your examples tend to the absurd.

Gender us a social construct and therefore capable of being changed.

Age is a number and not capable of being changed. We, as a society, agree to educate children of certain agrees in certain grades. Mental age doesn't change this (although some would argue for mixed age classrooms).

Scholarships for certain minority groups are designed to help those who have historically been underserved due to their race. Race in this case is determined by an individual's ancestry. It is possible for a white person to emulate black culture and vice versa, but that doesn't change eligibility for the scholarship. Hence my friend who is biracial is eligible for scholarships for Hispanic different despite looking Irish (due to her her mother's side).


Gender norms are currently being questioned as people become more aware of the middle space that many people occupy. It's not black and white. We should reflect in our rationale for gender divisions in locker rooms and determine the solution that is most accepting, IMO.


Also: how do kids go through life not seeing genitalia of the opposite sex? Dd had been known to play peekaboo with us while we shower. And good luck going port by yourself. I don't think she's been scarred by it...

I know you mean well but you aren't going to change her mind.  She thinks they are just confused and mentally ill.