Post by emilyinchile on Apr 8, 2015 11:10:16 GMT -5
Oh god. @shoegal, the preface to this is that you know I like you, including your upbeat attitude. I also think you are a smart woman, but you're coming across dumb here, frankly. If I had just read your words in this thread, I wouldn't be appalled. Because your posts have summarized MMM's post in a way that takes the good stuff and just totally ignores the bad, offensive, flat-out wrong stuff. That's not a summary, that's a reading comprehension issue.
It's great to talk about how we get bogged down in stuff, to encourage people to think outside the box and to share stories of doing that. I can see how that appeals to you. But I can't just pretend that this guy is delivering that message when his actual message - based on his words, not your interpretation of them - is SO out of touch with reality. White privilege is real. Poverty that does not allow you to prioritize your spending because you are spending only on the basics and can't even afford them - that's real too. To me it's not a minor detail that MMM is ignoring those and other factors (medical emergencies?), it's the fundamental basis of his schtick. The fact that his schtick has worked to get him a following and encourage some other people to change their lives doesn't justify it, in my opinion. That's where I disagree with oswin because she chooses to see past that, and I just can't give someone enough of a pass to extract the good from so much utter shit.
I am another upper-middle class white person, and I don't claim to have the best understanding of all the ways that my life has been affected by the circumstances of my birth. But again, for someone who is smart, you are saying dumb stuff on this point. You know that for many people, a cell phone plan isn't all that stands between them and early retirement, and you have to know that while we all have free will, some people have serious external/societally-imposed limitations on how much they can change their lives. If you truly don't know those things (or know them because you've been told but still don't quite believe them), then that needs to change, and people have given you resources.
Being able to afford olive oil is a privilege. That shit's expensive!
I'm glad I am not the only one thinking that! I was all, who the hell drinks spoonfuls of olive oil to save money on food?! Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.
Being able to afford olive oil is a privilege. That shit's expensive!
I'm glad I am not the only one thinking that! I was all, who the hell drinks spoonfuls of olive oil to save money on food?! Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.
If you get the 16 ounce bottle for $6 at Trader Joes, at 2 tablespoons per ounce, each tablespoon works out to about 19 cents for 100 calories or so. Granted, buying cheap olive oil seems worse, because it's not going to taste anywhere near as nice as the good stuff.
I'm glad I am not the only one thinking that! I was all, who the hell drinks spoonfuls of olive oil to save money on food?! Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.
If you get the 16 ounce bottle for $6 at Trader Joes, at 2 tablespoons per ounce, each tablespoon works out to about 19 cents for 100 calories or so. Granted, buying cheap olive oil seems worse, because it's not going to taste anywhere near as nice as the good stuff.
Trader Joe's -- So I take it you're going to a dedicated shopping mall for your olive oil?
You're lucky you don't have kids because of you did, I'd be calling CPS on you. That's child endangerment!
If you get the 16 ounce bottle for $6 at Trader Joes, at 2 tablespoons per ounce, each tablespoon works out to about 19 cents for 100 calories or so. Granted, buying cheap olive oil seems worse, because it's not going to taste anywhere near as nice as the good stuff.
Trader Joe's -- So I take it you're going to a dedicated shopping mall for your olive oil?
You're lucky you don't have kids because of you did, I'd be calling CPS on you. That's child endangerment!
Out here in the 'burbs, braving the TJ's parking lot IS a contact sport!
I'm glad I am not the only one thinking that! I was all, who the hell drinks spoonfuls of olive oil to save money on food?! Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.
If you get the 16 ounce bottle for $6 at Trader Joes, at 2 tablespoons per ounce, each tablespoon works out to about 19 cents for 100 calories or so. Granted, buying cheap olive oil seems worse, because it's not going to taste anywhere near as nice as the good stuff.
Unfortunately, my privileged ass reads Cooks Illustrated and am saddened to report that the cheap TJs Olive Oil came "not recommended" and, thus, I cannot buy that.
I think I am most offended at being called a condescending hypocrite and a troll. Yikes, not a fun way to start the day.
My worldview is that individuals have an amazing ability to change their life and own their destiny. I also firmly believe that we can decide how we view OUR life - I can be a grumpy sad face or I can be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful.
I don't see that type of sentiment reflected in many areas of the media or in pop culture generally. So I like a guy who is ballsy enough to put his own unconventional life out there, share how he created enough wealth on his own to build a life that he LOVES. To me, that is admirable and amazingly inspiring.
I'll try to tamper my excitement in the future because I see that its kind of like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, apparently!
Yikes! I thought I was stirring the pot, but apparently it was kind of like making a shake in a blender with the top off....
You're upset about the reaction here, but it doesn't seem as though you have reconsidered how you're coming across in any meaningful way. Instead of taking a step back to reflect you're just going to "tamper your excitement in the future"?
Do you really not see how your perspective is a little...out of touch? You can afford considerable luxuries AND still save for an early retirement. And there's nothing wrong with that or in sharing your successes here. But it crosses the line to offensive when it's accompanied by admonishments of others' spending as "pure foolishness" or when you imply that someone else's failure to "own their own destiny" is a result of insufficient sacrifice or being a "grumpy sad face."
It's pretty easy to be satisfied and hopeful when you have financial security, supportive relationships, meaningful work and society's respect and admiration. So to be so self congratulatory about that is pretty damn tone deaf.
Sorry, dawnzersong, but I'm back with Jenny. And we're having a baby.
I like @shoegal and her chipper attitude. When people come to the board for help she always seems very positive. "just knowing you need to do something about money puts you ahead of so many people already", stuff like that. I am pretty sure she has been on the internet long enough that this won't make her go away.
Stan that's not a giant bike lane, it's a regular lane with something called "sharrows", which is a hint to bicyclists to use this road and not the parallel road on block over. Sadly someone stole that bike, but a custom bike builder gave her a new one.
... I just want to make sure that everyone understood v was joking at Mr. MM's expense with the daycare thing, right? I mean, I got that she was joking with everything else. But I read it the first time and thought "wow, this flame war is going to end up with sub-flame wars!" and I can't tell if everyone else figured it out .
The cable/cell phone bit is just a specific instance of the general case of "stop judging people for spending money on X which is low priority for you but maybe high priority for them". Some people like TV. Some people like cars. I have a friend who is waaay to into is house, he bought a $1000+ thermostat from Honeywell because the Nest thermometer wasn't good enough. It's a little weird but it doesn't make him a bad person. If it does, then I'm personally coming to collect everyone's >$1000 handbags.
Count me in for the "okay, I'm glad someone out there is re-thinking every single piece of consumer spending. Even if I only do 30% of that, it's good food for thought. But you don't have to be a douche about it. I find the whole personal responsibility thing a dodge; there are bigger forces in play, people in decision-making positions could make different decisions than the ones they're doing"
BUT
Mr. MM is right on the "I would join the early retirement/FI thing except health care". He, you know, did the math. If you're already crazy enough to retire early, you can just make sure that you'll be okay buying private insurance and paying the OOP max for your policy. So it means you have to plan to have $55,000 in investment income instead of $45,000. Totally doable, if you're already crazy enough to think "sure I can have a paid-off house and $45,000 in investment income at age 37, bike my kid everywhere, only travel to public parks, and make my kid pay for their own college" is doable.
That leaves education costs and he's decided that his kid is going to have to bootstrap his way through college. Which, okay, even people who could afford to, but I couldn't live with myself doing that. Also his kid is already starting out on second base in terms of college, given the family situation. Or you can not have kids. Again, all valid life choices. Not for everyone.
BUT BUT
He lost me -- I mean, he never really had me, but whatever -- with the 401k thing. The median person doesn't budget enough for retirement investment, even with the tax advantages. And when they do, they're not very good at investment decisions. The fees are too high on a large number of plans (and it was a lot worse 20 years ago, when the people retiring now were investing). This is, like, a well-studied research topic. Just because you beat the game doesn't mean everybody does.
And can I just vent about his stupid "ZOMG IF YOU TOOK THAT $4.50/DAY ON A LATTE AND PUT IT IN TEH MARKET, AFTER 10 YEARS YOU'D HAVE $17,000". Yeah, and the median working-age coastal urban household would earn a million dollars in 10 years. The median US working-age household would earn $650,000. It's just not a lot of money. And you're assuming that it would actually get into the market, and not get spent on more clothes or food or whatever.
Being able to afford olive oil is a privilege. That shit's expensive!
Actually he has a post where he figured out calories per dollar for a bunch of foods. He eats lots of nuts coated in olive oil. It's not top shelf stuff, but it's not plastic bottle stuff either.
Being able to afford olive oil is a privilege. That shit's expensive!
Actually he has a post where he figured out calories per dollar for a bunch of foods. He eats lots of nuts coated in olive oil. It's not top shelf stuff, but it's not plastic bottle stuff either.
You're upset about the reaction here, but it doesn't seem as though you have reconsidered how you're coming across in any meaningful way. Instead of taking a step back to reflect you're just going to "tamper your excitement in the future"?
Do you really not see how your perspective is a little...out of touch? You can afford considerable luxuries AND still save for an early retirement. And there's nothing wrong with that or in sharing your successes here. But it crosses the line to offensive when it's accompanied by admonishments of others' spending as "pure foolishness" or when you imply that someone else's failure to "own their own destiny" is a result of insufficient sacrifice or being a "grumpy sad face."
It's pretty easy to be satisfied and hopeful when you have financial security, supportive relationships, meaningful work and society's respect and admiration. So to be so self congratulatory about that is pretty damn tone deaf.
Sorry, dawnzersong, but I'm back with Jenny. And we're having a baby.
I like @shoegal and her chipper attitude. When people come to the board for help she always seems very positive. "just knowing you need to do something about money puts you ahead of so many people already", stuff like that. I am pretty sure she has been on the internet long enough that this won't make her go away.
Stan that's not a giant bike lane, it's a regular lane with something called "sharrows", which is a hint to bicyclists to use this road and not the parallel road on block over. Sadly someone stole that bike, but a custom bike builder gave her a new one.
... I just want to make sure that everyone understood v was joking at Mr. MM's expense with the daycare thing, right? I mean, I got that she was joking with everything else. But I read it the first time and thought "wow, this flame war is going to end up with sub-flame wars!" and I can't tell if everyone else figured it out .
The cable/cell phone bit is just a specific instance of the general case of "stop judging people for spending money on X which is low priority for you but maybe high priority for them". Some people like TV. Some people like cars. I have a friend who is waaay to into is house, he bought a $1000+ thermostat from Honeywell because the Nest thermometer wasn't good enough. It's a little weird but it doesn't make him a bad person. If it does, then I'm personally coming to collect everyone's >$1000 handbags.
Count me in for the "okay, I'm glad someone out there is re-thinking every single piece of consumer spending. Even if I only do 30% of that, it's good food for thought. But you don't have to be a douche about it. I find the whole personal responsibility thing a dodge; there are bigger forces in play, people in decision-making positions could make different decisions than the ones they're doing"
BUT
Mr. MM is right on the "I would join the early retirement/FI thing except health care". He, you know, did the math. If you're already crazy enough to retire early, you can just make sure that you'll be okay buying private insurance and paying the OOP max for your policy. So it means you have to plan to have $55,000 in investment income instead of $45,000. Totally doable, if you're already crazy enough to think "sure I can have a paid-off house and $45,000 in investment income at age 37, bike my kid everywhere, only travel to public parks, and make my kid pay for their own college" is doable.
That leaves education costs and he's decided that his kid is going to have to bootstrap his way through college. Which, okay, even people who could afford to, but I couldn't live with myself doing that. Also his kid is already starting out on second base in terms of college, given the family situation. Or you can not have kids. Again, all valid life choices. Not for everyone.
BUT BUT
He lost me -- I mean, he never really had me, but whatever -- with the 401k thing. The median person doesn't budget enough for retirement investment, even with the tax advantages. And when they do, they're not very good at investment decisions. The fees are too high on a large number of plans (and it was a lot worse 20 years ago, when the people retiring now were investing). This is, like, a well-studied research topic. Just because you beat the game doesn't mean everybody does.
And can I just vent about his stupid "ZOMG IF YOU TOOK THAT $4.50/DAY ON A LATTE AND PUT IT IN TEH MARKET, AFTER 10 YEARS YOU'D HAVE $17,000". Yeah, and the median working-age coastal urban household would earn a million dollars in 10 years. The median US working-age household would earn $650,000. It's just not a lot of money. And you're assuming that it would actually get into the market, and not get spent on more clothes or food or whatever.
I live in the South where people swerve at me when I have the audacity to run on the street. So I did not know about sharrows. Fancy!
I haven't read MMM much, so I don't know what he thinks about childcare, but I do regularly see the shit about "why let someone else raise your children" on the forums so I assumed that was an MMM thing.
Neither you, nor oswin, nor @shoegal are addressing the white privilege thing. That's all he had to say for me to be over him.
I know, but I can't even debate the finer points of his MM strategies because of it. I'm not sure how other people can get past it to defend his other points.
I totally get you - I was being sarcastic/stating the obvious. After that point the rest of his post came out sounding like the Charlie Brown teacher to me.
Post by pinkdutchtulips on Apr 8, 2015 15:25:54 GMT -5
ive waded through the 7 pages of commentary and it only further convinced me that MMM is full of crap. if i could live LCOL SE MI w/ my HCOL salary .. sign me up lol ... sadly i know that this is FAR from any version of reality.
i'll echo what others have said about @shoegal bc while i like her chipper attitude and support of women empowering themselves i CANNOT get onboard w/ the fact that ANYONE can advance sufficiently in this world by owning their destinies and sharing the same good attitude. she had ALOT of advantages that most don't have - no SL, a career that paid into 6 figures at 25 (and has routinely gone up substantially) and that once she hits early retirement can pick and choose consulting gigs that pay $60k/yr ..... that's how much some folks earn in a YEAR working full time, not something on a random pick n choose when i WANT to work basis.
you all know that i'm a single parent who basically lives paycheck to paycheck not bc i want to live this way or even bc i planned to live this way - its through a set of circumstances that i found myself in this spot and am taking steps on improving it. something like a lost job (which just recently happened !) can throw a wrench in things - no paycheck, no alimony, no child support, no severance. i'm thankful that i've got alot of unused vacay that i was able to cash out but it won't keep me afloat forever. my firm basically went under and thankfully i saw the handwriting on the wall and managed to get some resumes out before they crashed as well as interviews lined up but i was really hoping to tell them bye ! instead of them telling me 'we can't afford to pay you' .... this a HUGE set back ..... even w/ some advance warning, still a stinger. a good attitude won't put a 6 figure job in my lap.
i grew up in an affluent area (Main Line Phila) but was part of the working poor (dad was a minster *BA + MDiv* and my mom was a former teacher turned SAHM to 4 kids). i grew up surrounded by people who had privilege up the wazoo but never really understood what it was like NOT to have that kind of privilege to fall back on. i babysat for doctors who called me in on a moments notice bc it was nanny's night off and something came up and they needed someone to watch the younger kids *note - older siblings NEVER had to watch their younger sibs* .. i did it bc i made FANTASTIC money at it but at the same time, i had a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that parents were willing to shell out big bucks ($10-15/hr in the late 80's) to have me come in and watch their kids so the older kids (kids basically the same age as me 14-15) could devote their time to whatever ..... anything but watching their younger siblings. it all goes back to privilege - something that MMM and shoegal to an extent fail to own up to.
i babysat for doctors who called me in on a moments notice bc it was nanny's night off and something came up and they needed someone to watch the younger kids *note - older siblings NEVER had to watch their younger sibs* .. i did it bc i made FANTASTIC money at it but at the same time, i had a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that parents were willing to shell out big bucks ($10-15/hr in the late 80's) to have me come in and watch their kids so the older kids (kids basically the same age as me 14-15) could devote their time to whatever ..... anything but watching their younger siblings. it all goes back to privilege - something that MMM and shoegal to an extent fail to own up to.
Sort of off topic but I babysat for a bunch of kids that were only like a year or two younger than me. Usually there was a younger sibling too but I got the feeling that these parents just didn't want to leave their kids alone so a 14 or 15 year old me made them feel better about the situation. Maybe I was responsible because I babysat a lot? Anyway, just my two cents on babysitting fellow 14 year olds.
I live in the South where people swerve at me when I have the audacity to run on the street. So I did not know about sharrows. Fancy!
I haven't read MMM much, so I don't know what he thinks about childcare, but I do regularly see the shit about "why let someone else raise your children" on the forums so I assumed that was an MMM thing.
Neither you, nor oswin, nor @shoegal are addressing the white privilege thing. That's all he had to say for me to be over him.
I guess I thought "well-to-do white guy is oblivious to his own privilege and therefore thinks it doesn't exist and/or that discussions of it are way overblown" is sort of "dog bites man", so I didn't feel like commenting on it? Considering the whole premise of his schtick is BOOTSTRAPS and personal empowerment and individual responsibility to the millionth degree, it's also totally unsurprising.
People can have kooky views on one thing, and offer advice that you take with a giant heaping pile of salt on the other.
i babysat for doctors who called me in on a moments notice bc it was nanny's night off and something came up and they needed someone to watch the younger kids *note - older siblings NEVER had to watch their younger sibs* .. i did it bc i made FANTASTIC money at it but at the same time, i had a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that parents were willing to shell out big bucks ($10-15/hr in the late 80's) to have me come in and watch their kids so the older kids (kids basically the same age as me 14-15) could devote their time to whatever ..... anything but watching their younger siblings. it all goes back to privilege - something that MMM and shoegal to an extent fail to own up to.
Sort of off topic but I babysat for a bunch of kids that were only like a year or two younger than me. Usually there was a younger sibling too but I got the feeling that these parents just didn't want to leave their kids alone so a 14 or 15 year old me made them feel better about the situation. Maybe I was responsible because I babysat a lot? Anyway, just my two cents on babysitting fellow 14 year olds.
i wasn't babysitting fellow 14 -15 year olds or even 10-12 year olds ... no i was babysitting their MUCH younger siblings (3-9 yo set) as the older ones got to continue on w/ their social lives w/o a blip bc they never had to adjust their plans to accommodate scheduling snafus like that. if it was my house and my parents were to go out on a moments notice and there was no sitter, i had to step up to the plate regardless of my plans and watch my siblings.
I really appreciate the constructive advice and documentary / reading recommendations. That's always welcome!
And, I truly apologize to anyone that was deeply offended by this post. I see this place as a smart and quirky little community and I'm really, truly, sad that something I posted would have hurt anyone.
Lots of important things to reflect on, and I'm going to back away slowly now! Again - I really truly apologize, MM.
I really appreciate the constructive advice and documentary / reading recommendations. That's always welcome!
And, I truly apologize to anyone that was deeply offended by this post. I see this place as a smart and quirky little community and I'm really, truly, sad that something I posted would have hurt anyone.
Lots of important things to reflect on, and I'm going to back away slowly now! Again - I really truly apologize, MM.
As long as that is back away slowly from this thread while you mull over the privilege issue, not back away slowly never to be seen again! (((((@shoegal)))))))
I really appreciate the constructive advice and documentary / reading recommendations. That's always welcome!
And, I truly apologize to anyone that was deeply offended by this post. I see this place as a smart and quirky little community and I'm really, truly, sad that something I posted would have hurt anyone.
Lots of important things to reflect on, and I'm going to back away slowly now! Again - I really truly apologize, MM.
As long as that is back away slowly from this thread while you mull over the privilege issue, not back away slowly never to be seen again! (((((@shoegal)))))))
But, what is there for her to mull over? That she had white privilege? That she sees her world thru rose-colored glasses? That she should apologize for her luck/fortune?
This is not towards you, rubytue, but so we are now chastising people who thinks differently from the rest of us? I get that some of her comments (as well as MMM's) are very preachy, but come on. Some of the comments towards @shoegal is kind of below the belt.
I'm neither white nor rich, but I'm just a little annoyed with the negativity that came out of what could have been a very healthy discussion on retirement, albeit from a douche-y (MMM) source.
I'm neither white nor rich, but I'm just a little annoyed with the negativity that came out of what could have been a very healthy discussion on retirement, albeit from a douche-y (MMM) source.
Um... the post that was posted here is pure doucheyness. There is not a healthy discussion to be had based from that post. It has no redeemable qualities. You want to have a healthy discussion on retirement? Post something less douchey.
As long as that is back away slowly from this thread while you mull over the privilege issue, not back away slowly never to be seen again! (((((@shoegal)))))))
But, what is there for her to mull over? That she had white privilege? That she sees her world thru rose-colored glasses? That she should apologize for her luck/fortune?
This is not towards you, rubytue, but so we are now chastising people who thinks differently from the rest of us? I get that some of her comments (as well as MMM's) are very preachy, but come on. Some of the comments towards @shoegal is kind of below the belt.
I'm neither white nor rich, but I'm just a little annoyed with the negativity that came out of what could have been a very healthy discussion on retirement, albeit from a douche-y (MMM) source.
Well, to start with I was offering an olive branch bc I generally like @shoegal.
But, if you want to have a healthy discussion on retirement, you don't start off with the words of a blowhard zealot who can't admit it was mostly due to his luck that got him where he is. His situation is some planning, but a lot of (a) good timing when he was born, so that he finished college in time for the tech boom (b) who he was born to, so as to be able to go to college and have the money and the life skills to get through it (read about all the programs in development to help first gen college grads succeed) without crushing debt. And then says it can be done on minimum wage?! Why? I think his argument was he started at minimum wage. Well shit, so did I. When I was 16 and working after school in a mall food court. I count that when I say I've worked since I was 16, but in no way do I claim I've worked my way up from min wage (which was $3.15/hr then #getoffmylawn)
As long as that is back away slowly from this thread while you mull over the privilege issue, not back away slowly never to be seen again! (((((@shoegal)))))))
But, what is there for her to mull over? That she had white privilege? That she sees her world thru rose-colored glasses? That she should apologize for her luck/fortune?
That she fails to realize not everyone is on the same playing field, and therefore cannot and should not be held to the same standards/expectations.
I'm neither white nor rich, but I'm just a little annoyed with the negativity that came out of what could have been a very healthy discussion on retirement, albeit from a douche-y (MMM) source.
Um... the post that was posted here is pure doucheyness. There is not a healthy discussion to be had based from that post. It has no redeemable qualities. You want to have a healthy discussion on retirement? Post something less douchey.
I want to point out the fact that shoegal has posted non-MMM discussions 9 out of 10 times. She's very open about her goal to early retirement. I come from a totally different life situation, so it's good to read, in detail; how people reach their retirement goals. Hardly anyone has been very open about this subject at the level that the OP has done. She's been most helpful for me than 90% of the people who commented on this post.
I'm not a fan of MMM, and I agree that this particular post of his is a bunch of douchey nonsense. But how is this different from those MM'ers who post nonsense things from Dave Ramsey, Suze Orman, and the like? I get that most of the PP/comments are purely directed towards their strong opinion about MMM, but the flippant dismissal towards shoegal is kind of f'd up, telling her to basically 'sit in the corner'. She already admitted that she started this post to get the board going. I get the hate, but let's stick to the subject/post.