s/o tragic life - libs and cons come in please

[eclaires]

I don't know... I think it'd be really hard to reach anyone in that position. From the pictures - to me - it looks like they don't see anything wrong with how they are living.

So how do you help and influence a kid whose major influences (both in time and relationship) see nothing wrong with how they're living?

I don't know how you do. I almost don't think you can. You have to be able to convince him there's more out there, there's a reason to try and change your life, and the cycle...

FTR, I'm not saying we shouldn't try or that there shouldn't be programs. Just that you have to be able to reach someone, and reaching someone is so varied. There is no one solution.

[druidp]

Aug 13, 2012 15:37:53 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I don't know... I think it'd be really hard to reach anyone in that position. From the pictures - to me - it looks like they don't see anything wrong with how they are living.

So how do you help and influence a kid whose major influences (both in time and relationship) see nothing wrong with how they're living?

I don't know how you do. I almost don't think you can. You have to be able to convince him there's more out there, there's a reason to try and change your life, and the cycle...

FTR, I'm not saying we shouldn't try or that there shouldn't be programs. Just that you have to be able to reach someone, and reaching someone is so varied. There is no one solution.

I think the foot in the door is finding out what their acknowledged needs are, and meeting one or two in a personal manner. But that gets back to people who see nothing wrong with their lifestyle - "what, he likes playing Call of Duty - it's good for his motor skills!"

[pedanticwench]

For some reason, I feel that no amount of education will help all of the people that live like this. It's so much more than education. And I don't even know where to begin.

[marie427]

Sadly, I think it's already too late for a lot of kids out there. Any kind of intervention - whether from each of us, the state, private organizations, churches - has to happen really really early. I'm not speaking from experience so maybe I'm wrong and I probably am overgeneralizing a complex problem, but I would imagine that if you grow up with no one who can inspire you to do well in school, form healthy relationships with others, etc., one of the "easiest" ways to make something of yourself is to make a baby once you can so that you have some kind of purpose in life.

[aw]

Ditto druid.

Also, I see this as a problem beyond what the government is capable of fixing. You can't just throw money and services at this and see any real change. People have to be willing to learn and change. And often times the money and services that the government is able to provide are simply enabling this type of lifestyle.

That's why I think private, charitable organizations are the way to go. The government can't afford to pay to staff the type of services needed to truly help these people, so we need volunteers who are willing to do the work. And education isn't enough. It's going to take people who actually care having one-on-one interactions with the children and parents in this situation that are going to help them out of it by providing true support and accountability.

[summer]

But I think they see nothing wrong with it because it's all they know. That's how they grew up, how their friends grew up. But I still believe that if you believe in people, and show that you care how they and their children end up, and educate them, and show them options, and most importantly, an actual chance, that more often than not, you can empower them to improve their lives. They won't all be fairy tale endings, but at least some of them will improve, and their kids will improve and maybe you have a shot at something a couple generations down.

My family was a hot ass mess at times, as were the families of a lot of you on here. And some of you could have gone another way, as well. Granted it was nothing like this boy faced, but I could have easily ended up in the same situation as all my cousins: with a baby at 16, working at Brown's Chicken, no childcare, no money, no idea what to do to keep my kid healthy, and smoking up every night.

What helped me was I saw another world. I was lucky enough to come upon people from other walks of life and see other ways to be that were attainable. So many people took me under their wings and dropped wisdom on me. It was very random and I was very lucky. And then I had the will to work my ass off for something else. And I got help from a lot of gov't agencies and programs in the meantime. I don't think just one of those people on their own would have been as helpful. I needed all of those people and all of those programs.

I'm babbling. This whole topic depresses me.

[druidp]

I totally see that, summer. And it's a balance of what you show them: Here's a different world, and you/your family is valued and important enough to me and to this world for you to join it, or have it join you. Find that pride they can have in themselves, what they can bring to the table, and use that to improve not just their own situation but add to their surroundings/circles of influence.

God, I need a Denzel Washington commercial right about now.

[NitaX]

Aug 13, 2012 15:42:35 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

For some reason, I feel that no amount of education will help all of the people that live like this. It's so much more than education. And I don't even know where to begin.

I hate to say it, but it's gumption as the old folks say. At some point, you have to want better. We can argue about not having anyone expose you to better, but still, you have to want more for yourself. You can't teach that. It's why there is always a segment of people who do just the bare minimum to get by.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 13, 2012 15:45:10 GMT -5 aw said:

That's why I think private, charitable organizations are the way to go.

But you have those, and you know what their biggest problem is? Getting money to run their programs. Getting people to volunteer.

People in general don't care. All they care about is what is right in front of their noses.

[summer]

Aug 13, 2012 15:45:10 GMT -5 aw said:

Ditto druid.

Also, I see this as a problem beyond what the government is capable of fixing. You can't just throw money and services at this and see any real change. People have to be willing to learn and change. And often times the money and services that the government is able to provide are simply enabling this type of lifestyle.

That's why I think private, charitable organizations are the way to go. The government can't afford to pay to staff the type of services needed to truly help these people, so we need volunteers who are willing to do the work. And education isn't enough. It's going to take people who actually care having one-on-one interactions with the children and parents in this situation that are going to help them out of it by providing true support and accountability.

If people are unemployed or underemployed and have no assistance in their own lives, they are not going to have the time or energy to volunteer to help someone with severe issues like this long-term and consistently. They may be able to make a difference, of course, like people I mentioned previously, but people need services they can depend on, as well. And there is a lot of stuff laypeople simply cannot do. You need HR to hire a qualified person to do some of it.

[druidp]

Aug 13, 2012 15:52:31 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:42:35 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

For some reason, I feel that no amount of education will help all of the people that live like this. It's so much more than education. And I don't even know where to begin.

I hate to say it, but it's gumption as the old folks say. At some point, you have to want better. We can argue about not having anyone expose you to better, but still, you have to want more for yourself. You can't teach that. It's why there is always a segment of people who do just the bare minimum to get by.

This sounds strangely like bootstraps. ;D But seriously, I do think it boils down to wanting to make an effort. Gumption is a great word for that - bootstraps has had the connotation of materializing good fortune for oneself, or at least putting oneself in the path of that one or two people who can be a game changer for your life through their own affluence. Which I agree with.

[kadams767]

Aug 13, 2012 15:52:31 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:42:35 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

For some reason, I feel that no amount of education will help all of the people that live like this. It's so much more than education. And I don't even know where to begin.

I hate to say it, but it's gumption as the old folks say. At some point, you have to want better. We can argue about not having anyone expose you to better, but still, you have to want more for yourself. You can't teach that. It's why there is always a segment of people who do just the bare minimum to get by.

Part of this is also convincing people that what we are referring to as "better" really is better. I was one of those kids that a previous poster referred to that could have gone either way. Not in a situation as extreme as this child, for sure, but on the fence between a good, middle to upper middle class life and, well, poverty. Growing up, I heard a lot of down talking on people who had "better" lives. Anytime I wanted for more, my family thought of that as "keeping up with the Joneses". And they were right, it was trying to keep up with the Joneses. But in my head, I was always wondering what the heck was so wrong with wanting what the Joneses had? A nice, stable life, where ordering a pizza wasn't a financial catastrophe? College? You would have thought I was lusting after a Donald Trump lifestyle the way I was chastised. If the formative figures in a kid's life not only see nothing wrong with the way they are currently living AND constantly spout off negatives about the way others are living, those are two big obstacles for young kids to overcome.

[aw]

Aug 13, 2012 15:53:09 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:45:10 GMT -5 aw said:

That's why I think private, charitable organizations are the way to go.

But you have those, and you know what their biggest problem is? Getting money to run their programs. Getting people to volunteer.

People in general don't care. All they care about is what is right in front of their noses.

It's the same issue the government has though - finding the money to run their programs. So I guess we have to decide if we prefer the government stealing it from people (since we know most don't want to give it for these purposes) or do we want people making the choice to help others freely? Therein lies the problem.

So maybe the first step of the problem is making people care. It's just like anything else. The government isn't going to fix the environment, no matter how much money they spend trying to do it. It takes people caring and we know that most people don't give two licks what their actions are doing to the earth. So, the first step in the solution is taking the people who actually DO care and having them use their passion to excite other people into caring.

I guess the first step of the solution is for the people in this thread and others like us to use this frustration, anger and sadness over those pictures and make more of an effort with our time and resources.

[NitaX]

Aug 13, 2012 15:53:09 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:45:10 GMT -5 aw said:

That's why I think private, charitable organizations are the way to go.

But you have those, and you know what their biggest problem is? Getting money to run their programs. Getting people to volunteer.

People in general don't care. All they care about is what is right in front of their noses.

Agreed. And again I say, it's not just here private charity go run it. Honestly, every program out there is needed - faith based, private, gov't. The problem of poverty and the systematic destruction social systems can't be fixed by just handing it all over to one group. All of those programs need to be linked in some fashion.

If I'm Sally who needs housing assistance so I don't live in a dump like the one pictured, then I can get a Section 8 voucher. BUT, the gov't needs to direct me to a private program that can help me budget and fix my financial mess. If I get childcare assistance, I need direction to after school programs or other school programs that can help me understand why literacy is important or keep my kids active.

Our programs don't always talk to each other. When I worked for local govt people would call about getting money to help do small home repairs. We didn't do those, but I could point them to agencies that should be able to help. I don't think that always happens.

[pixy0stix]

You know what saved me from the cycle? My grandparents. They showed me there was another life out there, and that I could actually do something.

If I didn't have that outside influence, if I had just stayed around my friends and family, I wouldn't have known that there *was* anything to aspire to. I would have thought getting a job for $12 an hour was living high on the hog.

It's all well and good to talk about bootstraps/gumption/changing your situation, but there are plenty of people out there that think the way they are living is good enough.

[Melissa W.]

Aug 13, 2012 15:59:30 GMT -5 aw said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:53:09 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

But you have those, and you know what their biggest problem is? Getting money to run their programs. Getting people to volunteer.

People in general don't care. All they care about is what is right in front of their noses.

It's the same issue the government has though - finding the money to run their programs. So I guess we have to decide if we prefer the government stealing it from people (since we know most don't want to give it for these purposes) or do we want people making the choice to help others freely? Therein lies the problem.

So maybe the first step of the problem is making people care. It's just like anything else. The government isn't going to fix the environment, no matter how much money they spend trying to do it. It takes people caring and we know that most people don't give two licks what their actions are doing to the earth. So, the first step in the solution is taking the people who actually DO care and having them use their passion to excite other people into caring.

I guess the first step of the solution is for the people in this thread and others like us to use this frustration, anger and sadness over those pictures and make more of an effort with our time and resources.

Who is to say that those in this thread don't???

[pedanticwench]

But it can't be all bootstraps. There has to be a hearty combination of gumption AND help from other sources.

Also, I feel that the people who live like this will only feel irritation and annoyance if a well-off stranger tried to tell them they could have a better life if they just learned how to budget their money or take birth control. It's not as simple a solution as that.

[wrathofkuus]

I'm just not convinced that showing these kids that there is such a thing as a middle class, and that they have a different lifestyle, will make them magically have middle class outlooks on life. Sure, it happens, sometimes, but the assumption here is that of course everyone, including the people who have this lower class lifestyle, thinks that middle class morality is inherently superior, and that simply isn't true.


ed: Kadams beat me to it, looks like.

[Melissa W.]

Aug 13, 2012 15:59:51 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:53:09 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

But you have those, and you know what their biggest problem is? Getting money to run their programs. Getting people to volunteer.

People in general don't care. All they care about is what is right in front of their noses.

Agreed. And again I say, it's not just here private charity go run it. Honestly, every program out there is needed - faith based, private, gov't. The problem of poverty and the systematic destruction social systems can't be fixed by just handing it all over to one group. All of those programs need to be linked in some fashion.

If I'm Sally who needs housing assistance so I don't live in a dump like the one pictured, then I can get a Section 8 voucher. BUT, the gov't needs to direct me to a private program that can help me budget and fix my financial mess. If I get childcare assistance, I need direction to after school programs or other school programs that can help me understand why literacy is important or keep my kids active.

Our programs don't always talk to each other. When I worked for local govt people would call about getting money to help do small home repairs. We didn't do those, but I could point them to agencies that should be able to help. I don't think that always happens.

I absolutely agree with this. The programs seem to operate in a vacuum.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 13, 2012 15:59:30 GMT -5 aw said:

The government isn't going to fix the environment, no matter how much money they spend trying to do it. It takes people caring and we know that most people don't give two licks what their actions are doing to the earth. So, the first step in the solution is taking the people who actually DO care and having them use their passion to excite other people into caring.

But they can make it easier by providing recycling services, putting mandates on manufacturers on the distribution of waste, etc.

Same for social programs. You can make it easier for people to reach and use programs. The easier something is to use, the more people will be willing to apply for them.

[summer]

Aug 13, 2012 15:59:51 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:53:09 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

But you have those, and you know what their biggest problem is? Getting money to run their programs. Getting people to volunteer.

People in general don't care. All they care about is what is right in front of their noses.

Agreed. And again I say, it's not just here private charity go run it. Honestly, every program out there is needed - faith based, private, gov't. The problem of poverty and the systematic destruction social systems can't be fixed by just handing it all over to one group. All of those programs need to be linked in some fashion.

If I'm Sally who needs housing assistance so I don't live in a dump like the one pictured, then I can get a Section 8 voucher. BUT, the gov't needs to direct me to a private program that can help me budget and fix my financial mess. If I get childcare assistance, I need direction to after school programs or other school programs that can help me understand why literacy is important or keep my kids active.

Our programs don't always talk to each other. When I worked for local govt people would call about getting money to help do small home repairs. We didn't do those, but I could point them to agencies that should be able to help. I don't think that always happens.

That is the first thing I would fix. Social services is way to haphazard. People need to know what the others are doing and it needs to be much easier to navigate. People with lots of needs are not the ones to be going to a thousand different offices and hearing everyone say, "that's not my job. I don't know who does that. Call this person" all day long.

[aw]

Aug 13, 2012 16:01:12 GMT -5 Melissa W. said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:59:30 GMT -5 aw said:

It's the same issue the government has though - finding the money to run their programs. So I guess we have to decide if we prefer the government stealing it from people (since we know most don't want to give it for these purposes) or do we want people making the choice to help others freely? Therein lies the problem.

So maybe the first step of the problem is making people care. It's just like anything else. The government isn't going to fix the environment, no matter how much money they spend trying to do it. It takes people caring and we know that most people don't give two licks what their actions are doing to the earth. So, the first step in the solution is taking the people who actually DO care and having them use their passion to excite other people into caring.

I guess the first step of the solution is for the people in this thread and others like us to use this frustration, anger and sadness over those pictures and make more of an effort with our time and resources.

Who is to say that those in this thread don't???

I didn't say that nobody is. I would venture to say that most of the people on this board volunteer their time and money to many important issues. But let's face it, we can all always do more, right? My point is that if we can't rely on the government or on private organizations to make a real change at this point, perhaps it is going to take more effort on the part of those that actually can make a change - even if it's just one family at a time.

I'll be honest. I give to charitable organizations and volunteer a few places. But I have a lot more time and money to give. It would just take a little sacrifice on my part to use it for the good of others. But if I truly want to make a difference, perhaps I should make that sacrifice...

[NitaX]

Aug 13, 2012 16:01:17 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

But it can't be all bootstraps. There has to be a hearty combination of gumption AND help from other sources.

Also, I feel that the people who live like this will only feel irritation and annoyance if a well-off stranger tried to tell them they could have a better life if they just learned how to budget their money or take birth control. It's not as simple a solution as that.

It is. It shouldn't be "Oh Baby. Bless yo' heart. You could be blah, blah." It's about someone taking the time to say, "You know what. You are pretty good with X. Did you ever think about this? Why don't we go visit this place that does X. I know you'd be fascinated with it." Once you can find what makes someone light up, or their talent, you can inspire them. It's the dream that gives rise to well, I can do blah, blah. Someone showed me how to do X.

It's not Newt Gingrich giving you a "work ethic." It's the same tactic teachers use when they see they have a kid who is good in one subject and want to push them to do more.

And kadams - for the purposes of better in this story, I'm not talking living like Bill Gates. I'm talking a clean place to lay your head. I wanted to cry looking at these pictures because that apartment was a mess. I'd sit around scratching all the dayum time if I had to sleep like that. Hell, we didn't have the world when I was in elementary school, but we had clean sheets.

[kadams767]

Aug 13, 2012 16:03:19 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I'm just not convinced that showing these kids that there is such a thing as a middle class, and that they have a different lifestyle, will make them magically have middle class outlooks on life. Sure, it happens, sometimes, but the assumption here is that of course everyone, including the people who have this lower class lifestyle, thinks that middle class morality is inherently superior, and that simply isn't true.


ed: Kadams beat me to it, looks like.

But that doesn't mean that we should avoid trying to reach them at all. I'm thankful for every person, every program that I crossed paths with in my life that put me on the road to the life I have now. Every parent other than my own that showed me the "other side", every teacher that pushed me into advanced classes and extracurricular stuff, every social worker and counselor that made it clear that my current life was not to be emulated. It works on some kids and to me, that's better than avoiding all of the kids.

[aw]

Aug 13, 2012 16:03:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 13, 2012 15:59:30 GMT -5 aw said:

The government isn't going to fix the environment, no matter how much money they spend trying to do it. It takes people caring and we know that most people don't give two licks what their actions are doing to the earth. So, the first step in the solution is taking the people who actually DO care and having them use their passion to excite other people into caring.

But they can make it easier by providing recycling services, putting mandates on manufacturers on the distribution of waste, etc.

Same for social programs. You can make it easier for people to reach and use programs. The easier something is to use, the more people will be willing to apply for them.

Problem is that these things are just a band-aid. The money falls through and the recycling service stops picking up the recycling at someone's front door and people stop recycling. They aren't willing to take it to the recycling center themselves unless they actually care about the environment. The government can't make us care. It takes people convincing others why they should.

So when we provide these services for people that are simply a band-aid (services that the government simply cannot afford), what happens when the money is no longer flowing? We're back where we started.

I'll agree that these things seem to help right now, but they are by no means a solution. We need solutions.

[druidp]

Aug 13, 2012 16:08:44 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Aug 13, 2012 16:01:17 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

But it can't be all bootstraps. There has to be a hearty combination of gumption AND help from other sources.

Also, I feel that the people who live like this will only feel irritation and annoyance if a well-off stranger tried to tell them they could have a better life if they just learned how to budget their money or take birth control. It's not as simple a solution as that.

It is. It shouldn't be "Oh Baby. Bless yo' heart. You could be blah, blah." It's about someone taking the time to say, "You know what. You are pretty good with X. Did you ever think about this? Why don't we go visit this place that does X. I know you'd be fascinated with it." Once you can find what makes someone light up, or their talent, you can inspire them. It's the dream that gives rise to well, I can do blah, blah. Someone showed me how to do X.

It's not Newt Gingrich giving you a "work ethic." It's the same tactic teachers use when they see they have a kid who is good in one subject and want to push them to do more.

And kadams - for the purposes of better in this story, I'm not talking living like Bill Gates. I'm talking a clean place to lay your head. I wanted to cry looking at these pictures because that apartment was a mess. I'd sit around scratching all the dayum time if I had to sleep like that. Hell, we didn't have the world when I was in elementary school, but we had clean sheets.

This is what I was trying to get at above as well. There has to be a personalized vs. pamphlet interest in these people. Otherwise they'll just figure you're flinging a slogan at them so you (general) can sleep better at night, saying "well, at least I tried to help!"

And I agree it's gumption plus outside assistance - the balance needed between those two would be dependent on the specific person and their situation.

[marie427]

Aug 13, 2012 16:03:19 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I'm just not convinced that showing these kids that there is such a thing as a middle class, and that they have a different lifestyle, will make them magically have middle class outlooks on life. Sure, it happens, sometimes, but the assumption here is that of course everyone, including the people who have this lower class lifestyle, thinks that middle class morality is inherently superior, and that simply isn't true.


ed: Kadams beat me to it, looks like.

IMO, there's a big difference between a "lower class lifestyle" and what Donny's family's lifestyle in that article. There's a lot of working class people in this country and not every kid born into one is like Donny.

[wrathofkuus]

Aug 13, 2012 16:12:13 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Aug 13, 2012 16:03:19 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I'm just not convinced that showing these kids that there is such a thing as a middle class, and that they have a different lifestyle, will make them magically have middle class outlooks on life. Sure, it happens, sometimes, but the assumption here is that of course everyone, including the people who have this lower class lifestyle, thinks that middle class morality is inherently superior, and that simply isn't true.


ed: Kadams beat me to it, looks like.

But that doesn't mean that we should avoid trying to reach them at all. I'm thankful for every person, every program that I crossed paths with in my life that put me on the road to the life I have now. Every parent other than my own that showed me the "other side", every teacher that pushed me into advanced classes and extracurricular stuff, every social worker and counselor that made it clear that my current life was not to be emulated. It works on some kids and to me, that's better than avoiding all of the kids.

I'm not saying don't try - I'm saying don't be shocked when most of the time it doesn't do anything. And I think I'm also saying that it's good to keep in mind that we ALL think our way is the right way, whether we're middle class, upper middle, old money, or proles. I think that's the best way to reach people, to throw out the assumption that you're going to "fix" them into being exactly the same as you, with the same norms and values.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 13, 2012 16:08:44 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Hell, we didn't have the world when I was in elementary school, but we had clean sheets.

I can actually speak to the sheets thing: I had a friend growing up that was even poorer than we were. They moved a lot and so weren't on any government assistance (migrant workers). They didn't have any sheets because it cost money to wash them. Big bulky items like that add another 2-3 loads of laundry when you're washing at a laundry mat, which equals that much money out of the budget for food or other items that are more fun. Sheets fall to the end of list of things to have once you reach a certain poverty point.

[NitaX]

Druidp - Right. Honestly, a success story is what kadams has written. That's what it looks like when community plus gov't programs, charities, etc. has actually helped someone. If she had not run across those people, her life would be different. Everyone was vested in her best interest. She'd be the person who after curing cancer would say "I want to say Mrs. Jones, my 2nd grade teacher thank you. Pastor Moore at the summer camp, thank you. Ms. Green at the counseling office. Thank you. You all pushed me to be who I am today. Without your support, none of this would be possible."

And then she'd say "I didn't build that." LMAO