THIS IS A HP VIRGINS AND VETERANS THREAD. Vets, please include any thoughts that reveal spoilers or any foreshadowing whatsoever in SPOILER TAGS. This is done by typing [ spoiler ] whatever you're spoiling [ / spoiler ], without the spaces. If you want to gush about it openly, please feel free to create a separate post to do so - just be clear in the title that it will include series spoilers.
1.The previous volumes have all opened at the Dursley home, but this book starts somewhere else. How did that change the tone of the story for you? Why do you think Rowling departed from the way she had started the other books?
2. After the Quidditch Tournament, people started celebrating and then things turned ugly. Why do you think they started harassing the Muggle family? Why do you think the Death Eaters choose that moment to come out of hiding?
3. Do you like Mad-Eye Moody? What do you think of his teaching methods? Should he be doing the things he does, like turn Draco into a ferret and cursing students? Would you want him for a teacher, and do you think he’d treat you like Malfoy or like Harry?
4. Magical objects that have been used for good, or simple mischief, by Harry in earlier volumes are used for darker reasons in this book. How does this change the tone of the story? How does Barty Crouch, disguised as Moody, use the Invisibility Cloak and the Marauder’s Map? What clues are there in the story that would lead you to suspect that Mad-Eye Moody was not the person he appeared to be? Why could Dumbledore not detect this deception? Why is Snape convinced that instead of the true culprit, it is the students who are stealing his ingredients for Polyjuice Potion?
5. Harry has his first experience with Dumbledore’s Pensieve in this volume, a device through which he learns many important facts from the past. The first time he (inadvertently) enters the Pensieve, Dumbledore tells him, “Curiosity is not a sin ... but we should exercise caution with our curiosity ... yes, indeed ...” (p. 598) What does he mean by this? When does Harry not exercise caution?
6. Is Harry learning to become a great wizard or is he just lucky to escape the forces that arise against him? What skills has he gained in this volume? Do you believe that Harry is living out a destiny or acting of his own free will?
7. Why did Voldemort want to duel Harry? Do you think it was a fair fight? What do you think would have happened if only Cedric had appeared with the Triwizard Cup? Do you think the other wizards would have eventually found out about Voldemort’s return?
8. Why do you think both Cedric and Harry didn’t want to claim the prize for themselves? If the Triwizard Cup hadn’t been a portkey, who do you think should have won, and do you think the other person would have felt bad later? If you had been Harry, what would you have done with the winnings? Do you think Harry is selfless in his actions, and can you find other instances in the book to back up your answer?
9. Why does Cornelius Fudge refuse to believe that Voldemort has returned? Why does he refuse to believe Harry’s story? The final chapter is entitled “The Beginning.” What does that tell you about the events that happened in this volume and the events to come?
10. By the end of Book 4, what loose ends has J.K. Rowling left open to be tied up in later novels? How successfully does Goblet of Fire balance its own ending with the need to leave open ends for the rest of the series?
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Next up is "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix."
What do you guys think about May 25 for the next discussion? That gives us a month.
Important: Would anyone else be interested in leading these discussions? I have a lot on my plate right now with a divorce and just picked up another job, so I haven't had much time to read. Also, it just dawned on me today that I agreed to post the questions early - I completely forgot, I'm sorry. I'm happy to continue, but if you guys want someone that's more on top of their game, I'm fine handing the reigns over to someone else I would still participate. Let me know if you might be interested!
1. The opening at he Riddle's house shows that the prophecy that Professor Trelawney made at the end of book 3 has come true - the servant has returned to the master and that Voldemort is plotting his return to power. He's also started killing, and is dangerous.
2. This actually surprised me. Assuming that the vast majority of wizards would be of the good type, I was quite shocked that this would even happen, or that the campground would be thrown into such disarray. I imagined it is something similar to a stampede at a soccer stadium. Too many people, too much panic.
3. I did like Mad-Eye, especially on my first reading. While his methods are old school, he does seem to have the student's interests at heart, and I wasn't questioning his motives. On rereads, it became more obvious how he is not really a very good teacher and is most likely quite evil.
4. I imagine that Snape's students have been stealing his supplies since he started teaching, so he wouldn't automatically jump to assume it was a teacher as compared to students. I've always been surprised at how many invisibility cloaks are flying around these books. I know Harry's is meant to be special, but there are obviously others. I don't think there are very many clues with respect to Mad-Eye being other than who he is supposed to be. The only obvious one is the disturbance at his house before he leaves, but that is explained away quite handily.
6. I think Harry gets through the challenges during the triwizard tournament mostly with help from his friends. Hermione (and later Ron) are the real stars of the show spending hours researching methods to get past the challenges and helping him practice until he's perfect all the way down to the wire. I think to a large extent he's still succeeding due to luck and some good split second decision making, but he's still just 14. He shouldn't be a highly skilled fighter against the dark arts. He's too young.
7. Voldemort wanted to play with his food, so to speak. He wanted to show off to his Death Eater friends and prove how young and pathetic Harry really was. He might have chosen specifically to do this since it had earlier been mentioned that some of the Death Eaters thought Harry might be the next great Dark Wizard. Voldemort wanted to secure his position among them and prove his power. The fight itself was not fair. Harry has a sprained ankle, has just been through hell in the labyrinth, seen Cedric killed, and is now expected to fight one of the greatest wizards ever. If only Cedric had won, they would have killed him and I think they would have continued with the spell. I'm surprised Barty Crouch wasn't watching more closely over what happened at the centre of the maze to ensure Harry won. Although he removed Krum and Fleur from the challenge, he left a lot up to chance.
9. Fudge refuses to believe that Voldemort has returned since he cannot handle that sort of problem himself. Instead he decides to implicate Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. as the bad guys in the situation and to hope that it was a lone gunman and that the issue has been resolved. The title of the final chapter shows that while there have been battles in the past 4 books (after a sort), we are now preparing for war.
Post by thebuddhagouda on Apr 27, 2015 10:21:21 GMT -5
6. Is Harry learning to become a great wizard or is he just lucky to escape the forces that arise against him? What skills has he gained in this volume? Do you believe that Harry is living out a destiny or acting of his own free will?
I think this is something that gets explored in depth later
with the prophecy discovered in book 5 and Harry coming to grips with his "destiny" versus his own choices and how his choices (and Voldemort's) make him the one that fulfills the prophecy
but I do think that Harry is making the best choices he can with the information he has. He's facing a lot for a 14 year old basically on his own in the magical world
1.for me, starting with voldemort & wormtail (and the groundskeeper) was kind of shocking. everything seems fine and while i of course expect voldemort to be working behind the scenes, this beginning sets up the tone of the book well-especially in contrast to the previous book where we didn't hear about voldemort!
2. i thought this was surprising too. but, is it just a way for the death eaters to flex their muscle? that's kind of how i saw it.
3. mad-eye moody is my FAVORITE. i think he's hilarious and his asshole ways are kind of endearing. i would love him as a teacher, but i was a silent just do the work type so i feel like he would have picked on me. i know he wasn't technically himself, but he doesn't act any differently when "real" moody comes back.
4. dumbledore is so trusting of moody, and crouch clearly does a good job fully acting as moody-so he makes the mistake of not noticing. snape is generally suspicious, and as we learn in book 5, probably has good reason to think that others would be picking on him or stealing his potions.
he clearly had a rough time at hogwarts, and i am sure that james picking on him happened regularly, and james was probably not the only person to torture snape
5. for harry, he could learn more information than he is ready for or able to understand, plus harry's curiosity could easily get him killed (and almost does later
it's not until book 5 and even book 6 where he seems to be choosing his destiny based on the prophecy
7. not a fair fight (injuries etc), but again harry got lucky. he didn't "win" or escape because of any skill he had. his wand just happened to match voldemort's, allowing him to survive. i kept thinking "oh, of course you'd be fine." i think voldemort would have been discovered much later and when much more damage had been done if cedric had taken the cup alone. voldemort would have killed cedric anyway and continued with his plan.
8. i am not harry's biggest fan, but i do not think he deserved to win. i think harry thinks he is selfless, but he is a teenager. i think he behaves impulsively and seeks to gain something in the end. even if he had let cedric win, harry would have received tons of attention for it, probably overshadowing cedric's win anyway. cedric probably thought harry deserved it, or like he owed harry.
9. well, fudge is a leader, and harry potter is famous and probably a reminder of the failures of the ministry in the past. why listen to a teenage boy? it seemed to be a pride issue to me.
Post by Champagne Supernova on Apr 27, 2015 10:47:21 GMT -5
I always liked Mad-Eye.
His style of teaching is different and the kids need to know the stuff (the Defense Against the Dark Arts) anyway. I also like that he did not sugar-coat and made the kids really aware of all the evil around them.
Post by Dumbledork on Apr 27, 2015 13:00:40 GMT -5
1. I remember reading the book as a kid and going back to make sure I was reading chapter one of HP, and not chapter one, sneak preview of a different book. The different opening definitely threw me. Even in rereads, it takes me a minutes adjust.
As fr why she did it, I think there's a couple possible explanations, all of which are setting up later reveals and books.
There's the idea that magic is going to start spilling over into the Muggle world again, like in the old days. There's also the set up for The connection revel between Harry and Voldy. I think she wanted to show that this connection affects him all the time, not just when he's at school. And finally, it's the first sneak peek we get into Voldy's family history. I think that was important.
2. I could see Hermione simply being allowed in the top box as the push for Lucius and gang to go a bit nuts. I can just see him, excited for this expensive moment of privilege that he can boast about to people like Arthur Weasley, and then stepping in to the box and seeing, not only the Weasley gang but also HP and Hermione, and getting irrationally pissed off about it. Top that with a quick game, an ending most wouldn't expect where Krum basically handed the win to other team, group think and fire whiskey, and, hey, let's torture.
My lunch is almost over so that's all I have for now.
1.The previous volumes have all opened at the Dursley home, but this book starts somewhere else. How did that change the tone of the story for you? Why do you think Rowling departed from the way she had started the other books?
I think it was the first shift in her changing the tone of the books and setting up the darker things to come.
2. After the Quidditch Tournament, people started celebrating and then things turned ugly. Why do you think they started harassing the Muggle family? Why do you think the Death Eaters choose that moment to come out of hiding?
I always kind of think of this scene as the wizard equivalent of a muggle post-sports-win riot. I don't understand riots in the wizarding world any more than I understand them in our real life world. "Yay! Our team won! Let's turn over a bus and burn some shit down!" It just manifests itself differently at the Quidditch World Cup because magic.
3. Do you like Mad-Eye Moody? What do you think of his teaching methods? Should he be doing the things he does, like turn Draco into a ferret and cursing students? Would you want him for a teacher, and do you think he’d treat you like Malfoy or like Harry?
I think Moody was actually a really effective teacher, because he taught the students things that were not only practical, but by teaching them things that were forbidden, he probably piqued their interests in a way that wouldn't have happened otherwise. There is only so much you can understand based on theory alone, and eventually you need to actually see it in action.
4. Magical objects that have been used for good, or simple mischief, by Harry in earlier volumes are used for darker reasons in this book. How does this change the tone of the story? How does Barty Crouch, disguised as Moody, use the Invisibility Cloak and the Marauder’s Map? What clues are there in the story that would lead you to suspect that Mad-Eye Moody was not the person he appeared to be? Why could Dumbledore not detect this deception? Why is Snape convinced that instead of the true culprit, it is the students who are stealing his ingredients for Polyjuice Potion?
I was fooled about Moody the entire time until the big reveal (on my first read through obviously), but I was surprised the Dumbledore didn't pick up on it sooner since he was normally portrayed as being incredibly astute. But it doesn't surprise me at all that Snape didn't notice. Snape would have been on the defensive with Moody from the get go, which would have clouded his judgment, and we know that students (i.e. Hermione) have stolen from him before (and that Dobby was stealing from him), so he would automatically suspect the students and not a grown adult professor (who could presumably order his own boomslang skin).
5. Harry has his first experience with Dumbledore’s Pensieve in this volume, a device through which he learns many important facts from the past. The first time he (inadvertently) enters the Pensieve, Dumbledore tells him, “Curiosity is not a sin ... but we should exercise caution with our curiosity ... yes, indeed ...” (p. 598) What does he mean by this? When does Harry not exercise caution?
Harry *never* exercises caution, he's always been incredibly impulsive and constantly does stupid shit.
6. Is Harry learning to become a great wizard or is he just lucky to escape the forces that arise against him? What skills has he gained in this volume? Do you believe that Harry is living out a destiny or acting of his own free will?
I think it's both luck and him learning to be a great wizard. He's lucky that he's got a bunch of adults looking out for him, and he's lucky that he's befriended Hermione who can kind of cajole him into being a better wizard. Although really this works in reverse too, because his circumstances push Hermione into learning even more advanced things than she might have without Harry being her friend.
At this point in the series we don't know about the prophecy, but he's definitely living out destiny, because he didn't choose to enter the tournament. He has one quick fantasy about how cool it would be if he won the tournament, and then moves on. He doesn't consider asking Fred and George for aging potion, he doesn't think up ways to get past the age line, he's just like, "Oh, I can't play quidditch this year, but oh well, we've got this other cool thing going on."
7. Why did Voldemort want to duel Harry? Do you think it was a fair fight? What do you think would have happened if only Cedric had appeared with the Triwizard Cup? Do you think the other wizards would have eventually found out about Voldemort’s return?
Hubris. Voldemort wants to prove to his Deatheaters that it was a fluke he was defeated by a baby, and look at me defeating him now.
Cedric still would have died, but I think it would have taken a lot longer to find out about Voldemort's return.
8. Why do you think both Cedric and Harry didn’t want to claim the prize for themselves? I think they both realized something weird was going on, because of the incident with Krum earlier, and they both had saved each other. Without the other, neither of them would have reached the end. If the Triwizard Cup hadn’t been a portkey, who do you think should have won, and do you think the other person would have felt bad later? I had no problem with them having it be a tie. If you had been Harry, what would you have done with the winnings? Do you think Harry is selfless in his actions, and can you find other instances in the book to back up your answer? I don't know. I understand Harry basically not wanting to have "blood money" in his possession, so it makes sense he gave it away. I don't think I'd call it selfless to give it to the twins though, it was actually pretty self serving in that he just wanted it gone to help his own conscience.
9. Why does Cornelius Fudge refuse to believe that Voldemort has returned? Why does he refuse to believe Harry’s story? The final chapter is entitled “The Beginning.” What does that tell you about the events that happened in this volume and the events to come?
I think it is one part Fudge being stubborn and not wanting a) to be wrong, or b) for it to be true, and one part him believing the rumors about Harry's brain being addled.
10. By the end of Book 4, what loose ends has J.K. Rowling left open to be tied up in later novels? How successfully does Goblet of Fire balance its own ending with the need to leave open ends for the rest of the series? There is really too many to list, so I'll just toss one thought about book six under the spoiler tags.
I like that she introduced the pensieve here in book 4 when it was less significant, rather than in book 6 when it becomes very significant. It's much less deus ex machina than the introduction of the Portkeys in this book.
I have one other thought too, of something that I noticed this time around but hadn't in other re-reads.
We actually had our first glimpse into a patronus acting as a messenger in the scene where Harry and Krum find Barty Crouch in the woods. When Dumbledore comes down and they find Krum unconscious, and then he summons Hagrid,
He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird.
We know from JKR interviews at some point that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix and that he invented this method of communication (which was only used by the OotP). Such a tiny little detail here, with such great significance later.
everyjuan I can take over the discussions if you really want to hand it off. I'll probably be good at starting the threads on time, but I'll also probably post fewer questions.
Post by Dumbledork on Apr 27, 2015 16:32:26 GMT -5
Idk, she made it seem like the World Cup happens somewhat often, just not close enough where they could attend, and that this was the first time something like this has happened at the event.
I think it was more than just post sporting event crazy.
This was the first book in the series, IMO, where you really see evil wizards other than Voldemort. I feel like in the previous books, you can almost write off V as a crazy wacko working on his own (with a few helpers), but here we see the death eaters just casually torturing some muggles. Ugh. I hate that scene.
I agree. Earlier on you can write off people like the Malfoys as regular (well, rich) jerks, but now you really start to understand evil in humans.
The first few times I read this book I really kind of hated it because of its darkness, but now I like it a lot more because of its complexity.
5. Harry has his first experience with Dumbledore’s Pensieve in this volume, a device through which he learns many important facts from the past. The first time he (inadvertently) enters the Pensieve, Dumbledore tells him, “Curiosity is not a sin ... but we should exercise caution with our curiosity ... yes, indeed ...” (p. 598) What does he mean by this? When does Harry not exercise caution?
Harry *never* exercises caution, he's always been incredibly impulsive and constantly does stupid shit.
So true. All throughout the series he's impulsive, often to the point of restlessness.
such as when he decides to invade Snape's memories and later break into Umbridge's office to ask Sirius about his dad during Order of the Phoenix - my rule-following self gets the hives just thinking about those choices.
Since I'm on a roll, what do you all think about Harry's decision to give the prize money to Fred and George? I mean, it's great for the plot, but is it realistic? Would they really have accepted it as a gift?
Since I'm on a roll, what do you all think about Harry's decision to give the prize money to Fred and George? I mean, it's great for the plot, but is it realistic? Would they really have accepted it as a gift?
Fred and George aren't the most ethical, and Harry threatened to throw the money away if they didn't take it, so I can see why they would accept it.
Random, but my mom dislikes this book because she thinks it should have been edited WAY down. She thinks this marks the time when jk became too famous (lol) and was rushing the books out as fast as she could without enough tough love from her editor. I don't know what parts I would cut, but it is certainly a big jump in length compared with book 3.
Does she find 5-7 too long? I'm not a big fan of 5, and it's the longest (I think?), which makes it more painful.
I happened to watch (3 and) 4 last week after I finished reading, and the biggest thing movie cuts is everything related to Winky and the house-elves.
I agree that book 4 could have been edited way down. I don't have a problem with Hermione being rightfully pissed about the House Elves, but everything about SPEW could be chopped from all the books.
Post by aprilsails on Apr 27, 2015 18:48:58 GMT -5
There is a lot of padding in this book. I also found all the juvenile behaviour in this book was really juvenile which I guess makes sense because they are 14.
The panic about the yule ball, Ron's jealousy, etc, were annoying.
Idk, she made it seem like the World Cup happens somewhat often, just not close enough where they could attend, and that this was the first time something like this has happened at the event.
I think it was more than just post sporting event crazy.
I assumed it happened every 4 years like the soccer world cup does. I've also always wondered how the whole "it's too far away to travel" thing works when you can aparate. Does that only work for short distances?
Random, but my mom dislikes this book because she thinks it should have been edited WAY down. She thinks this marks the time when jk became too famous (lol) and was rushing the books out as fast as she could without enough tough love from her editor. I don't know what parts I would cut, but it is certainly a big jump in length compared with book 3.
I'm more inclined to think books 1-3 are too short. I think one of the ways Rowling is brilliant is her ability to create a whole world and illustrate it even beyond the main storyline. But I'm also a big Tolkien fan so clearly that's something I value.
I actually think book 4 needs to be longer than 1-3 because things get a lot more serious.
Random, but my mom dislikes this book because she thinks it should have been edited WAY down. She thinks this marks the time when jk became too famous (lol) and was rushing the books out as fast as she could without enough tough love from her editor. I don't know what parts I would cut, but it is certainly a big jump in length compared with book 3.
Does she find 5-7 too long? I'm not a big fan of 5, and it's the longest (I think?), which makes it more painful.
I happened to watch (3 and) 4 last week after I finished reading, and the biggest thing movie cuts is everything related to Winky and the house-elves.
I hate that they didn't show the World Cup. I love seeing/reading about the magical world and was so disappointed that it cut out that part.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
. It reminded me that they were kids, and that in essence it's a kids book - that's what kids like to read about. I loved the Ball and the nervousness of asking Cho
and Ginny almost getting to go to the ball with Harry
Some of the things not covered in the questions include Rita Skeeter - I loved her part in this book and thought she was portrayed so well and set it up nicely for the future.
Some of my favorite parts of the series is learning more about the magical world. I think this is best in book 5 but I love it here too.
I loved the tasks - LOVED them. It was so exciting but not necessarily in the death-defying way of the next books.
I loved MadEye but when you reread it - it's so dark with his discussion of the Cruciatus curse and Neville, and the AK curse with Harry - considering who he really is.
I feel like the SPEW parts could have been trimmed
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
Random, but my mom dislikes this book because she thinks it should have been edited WAY down. She thinks this marks the time when jk became too famous (lol) and was rushing the books out as fast as she could without enough tough love from her editor. I don't know what parts I would cut, but it is certainly a big jump in length compared with book 3.
I agree that JKR needed more editing and suffered from "famous author over-writing" where her editor wanted to get it out ASAP and refused to cut it down. I mean, they know a 700 page book would sell. It's not like they had to convince people to buy it.
BUT I love the detail in HP. I love all the new little things we learn about the HP universe, like the introduction of the pensieve and that kind of thing. I dunno. I could do with fewer house elves/SPEW, but getting into the kitchens was kind of cool.
Since I'm on a roll, what do you all think about Harry's decision to give the prize money to Fred and George? I mean, it's great for the plot, but is it realistic? Would they really have accepted it as a gift?
I think it was just impulse on Harry's part. But I do think he generally would give all his money to the Weasleys if he thought they'd take it. He's so uncomfortable with his wealth as it compares to their poverty.
Would Fred and George take it? I dunno. They just spent a year trying to get their life savings back and have a solid plan for the money, so I can see them seeing it as an investment.
Exactly I think after he says he's going to throw it away if they don't take it they decided to view him as an investor and take the money.
look at how they treat him when he comes to the shop in book 6, there's a very definite feel of them showing him what his money has done, like an investor and letting him have what he wants from the shop as a form of payment that he will take.