Right now, all sorts of people are trying to rethink and reinvent education, to get poor minority kids performing as well as white kids. But there's one thing nobody tries anymore, despite lots of evidence that it works: desegregation. Nikole Hannah-Jones looks at a district that, not long ago, accidentally launched a desegregation program. First of a two-part series.
Nikole Hannah-Jones reports on a school district that accidentally stumbled on an integration program in recent years. It's the Normandy School District in Normandy, Missouri. Normandy is on the border of Fergurson, Missouri, and the district includes the high school that Michael Brown attended. (30 minutes)
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
I haven't listened to the episode and this is a little off subject but DD1 excelled in school when she was younger and tested for advanced classes after kindergarten. She was in a decent school and she really enjoyed it but I thought putting her into advanced classes would be a good idea. The advanced classes were only at schools in the impoverished areas of town (I was a single mom and poor myself at the time making just over minimum wage so I'm not saying anything bad about the poor, I also grew up very poor) and I had issues with it due to safety concerns with the violence in that area but gave it a chance. I believe they placed the advanced kids in those schools to bump up the testing scores for those schools. It's elementary school so how bad could it be?
It was bad. The area her school was in is in gang territory and that part of town is known for that. My kid cried every night because she didn't want to go to daycare the next day (daycare transported her to and from school so it was in the same area). She is a minority but looks white and was teased, bullied, and stolen from at the daycare she attended. She was only in first grade so she was a tiny thing that didn't know how to speak out. Her grades plummeted. At school she picked up some bad behaviors and vocabulary as well. I don't want to go into what it was she would write and say but it was extremely concerning. After awhile I pulled her from the school and daycare and placed her in another and almost immediately she changed. I don't think the kids in the school were bad at all, I mean they're little kids, but it was evident that they had very bad influences at home.
I'm interested in that podcast and plan to listen.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
I just got back from a run and listened to this too! The town hall - oh my god. It seriously made me want to throw things.
It's interesting for me to listen to these things - or just be an adult with my own mind - and think back on my childhood. My parents never finished college, nor did my brothers. I'm the first and only in my family to do so. But it mattered so much to my parents that I get a "great" education that they sent me to private school, boarding high school, and private college. I define privilege.
When I was in private middle school, my parents would talk about how "awful" the public schools were. Loaded with gangs, dangerous, underperforming etc. This was the school I was zoned for - gasp!!
Now, I don't begrudge my parents shelling out for my education. I'm so thankful for the incredible experiences I had. But now that my son is entering school, I feel strongly that public education that serves the broader community is itself, an important invaluable part of education. And the school we are zoned for is one of the most ethnically (and socioeconomically) diverse in our area (which, in north Seattle, isn't saying tons). And yes, its scores are lower than those of dominantly white schools. But if anyone is so naive as to think that student achievement is born entirely by the students themselves - and not instead by the entirety of a system, a class, a culture that has by and large abandoned them -- shame on them. Also, wake the eff up.
I actually accidentally listened to it on the radio this weekend. I normally wait for the podcast, but it came in while I was running errands and I just stayed in my car until it was over.
The audio from the town hall was brutal and hard to listen to. Tears. And even though those parents were being assholes,I can understand where they were coming from. I imagine a lot of people here would have the same concerns if their good school district suddenly had an influx on students from one of the worst in the state. But to hear from students who were finally given a oppotunity for a better education really changes your perspective.
The data on desegregation was interesting, and so different from what you normally hear about how to improve schools.
If you follow the link to Hannah-Jones ProPublica article about Normandy, it talks about how St. Louis dabbled with this in the 80s, allowing students from not-great schools in inner St. Louis to go to better schools in St. Louis County before it was ended because of "cost issues." I graduated from one of the County schools that was part of this program (attended '87-'89)--I lived in the district. A not-insignificant number of students from the city (mostly black) chose to ride buses 20 miles every day to attend my school (vast majority of district students were white). I don't know what the graduation rates were for the city kids vs. the district kids, but I do know that not even an inkling of the doom these Francis Howell chucklefucks are whining about came to pass. The school was still one of the top public high schools in the nation. No violence, no need for metal detectors, no accreditation issues; the only tomfoolery I remember while I was there--which included a rash of locker break-ins and a bomb threat--was perpetrated by (white) district kids. All of which will surprise exactly no one on this board.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
I actually accidentally listened to it on the radio this weekend. I normally wait for the podcast, but it came in while I was running errands and I just stayed in my car until it was over.
The audio from the town hall was brutal and hard to listen to. Tears. And even though those parents were being assholes,I can understand where they were coming from. I imagine a lot of people here would have the same concerns if their good school district suddenly had an influx on students from one of the worst in the state. But to hear from students who were finally given a oppotunity for a better education really changes your perspective.
The data on desegregation was interesting, and so different from what you normally hear about how to improve schools.
Anyone know what the data are on Francis Howell School for the year(s) that kids from Normandy attended? I am wonder if any of those parents would view it differently now that "integration" has "happened" (not that full integration happened or that it's been lasting...)
I actually accidentally listened to it on the radio this weekend. I normally wait for the podcast, but it came in while I was running errands and I just stayed in my car until it was over.
The audio from the town hall was brutal and hard to listen to. Tears. And even though those parents were being assholes,I can understand where they were coming from. I imagine a lot of people here would have the same concerns if their good school district suddenly had an influx on students from one of the worst in the state. But to hear from students who were finally given a oppotunity for a better education really changes your perspective.
The data on desegregation was interesting, and so different from what you normally hear about how to improve schools.
I can't wrap my head around this. Aside from having graduated from a St. Louis County school that experienced exactly what the Francis Howell district is about to experience and suffered from it not at all (see my post above), how in the world do people logically come to this conclusion? Kids in a terrible school CHOOSE to attend another school 30 miles from their own--CHOOSE to get on a bus at o'dark-thirty to attend the school that's far away from them. What do these people think those kids are going to do? I mean, other than learn?
edited because I do understand subject-verb agreement.
I actually accidentally listened to it on the radio this weekend. I normally wait for the podcast, but it came in while I was running errands and I just stayed in my car until it was over.
The audio from the town hall was brutal and hard to listen to. Tears. And even though those parents were being assholes,I can understand where they were coming from. I imagine a lot of people here would have the same concerns if their good school district suddenly had an influx on students from one of the worst in the state. But to hear from students who were finally given a oppotunity for a better education really changes your perspective.
The data on desegregation was interesting, and so different from what you normally hear about how to improve schools.
I can't wrap my head around this. Aside from having graduated from a St. Louis County school that experienced exactly what the Francis Howell district is about to experience and suffered from it not at all (see my post above), how in the world do people logically come to this conclusion? Kids in a terrible school CHOOSE to attend another school 30 miles from their own--CHOOSE to get on a bus at o'dark-thirty to attend the school that's far away from them. What do these people think those kids are going to do? I mean, other than learn?
edited because I do understand subject-verb agreement.
This- there's such a selection effect that people don't consider. It's a pretty special set of students (and parents) who voluntarily choose to make their school day more difficult.
I haven't listened to the episode and this is a little off subject but DD1 excelled in school when she was younger and tested for advanced classes after kindergarten. She was in a decent school and she really enjoyed it but I thought putting her into advanced classes would be a good idea. The advanced classes were only at schools in the impoverished areas of town (I was a single mom and poor myself at the time making just over minimum wage so I'm not saying anything bad about the poor, I also grew up very poor) and I had issues with it due to safety concerns with the violence in that area but gave it a chance. I believe they placed the advanced kids in those schools to bump up the testing scores for those schools. It's elementary school so how bad could it be?
It was bad. The area her school was in is in gang territory and that part of town is known for that. My kid cried every night because she didn't want to go to daycare the next day. She is a minority but looks white and was teased, bullied, and stolen from at the daycare she attended. She was only in first grade so she was a tiny thing that didn't know how to speak out. Her grades plummeted. At school she picked up some bad behaviors and vocabulary as well. I don't want to go into what it was she would write and say but it was extremely concerning. After awhile I pulled her from the school and placed her in another and almost immediately she changed. I don't think the kids in the school were bad at all, I mean they're little kids, but it was evident that they had very bad influences at home.
I'm interested in that podcast and plan to listen.
Whut?
I also had to read it several times because I kept reading it as, "My child was taken from her daycare by someone who steals children." I think I'm supposed to have read it as, "One of the kids took some of her personal belongings."
I can't wrap my head around this. Aside from having graduated from a St. Louis County school that experienced exactly what the Francis Howell district is about to experience and suffered from it not at all (see my post above), how in the world do people logically come to this conclusion? Kids in a terrible school CHOOSE to attend another school 30 miles from their own--CHOOSE to get on a bus at o'dark-thirty to attend the school that's far away from them. What do these people think those kids are going to do? I mean, other than learn?
edited because I do understand subject-verb agreement.
This- there's such a selection effect that people don't consider. It's a pretty special set of students (and parents) who voluntarily choose to make their school day more difficult.
This is actually the thing that concerns me about this type of desegregation. If it's just the best kids from the poor schools moving to the rich, mostly white schools, doesn't that actually make the poor schools even worse, since their best students are now gone? When school attendance is based on where you live, and when you live in a highly segregated area (by race and by SEC), how do you solve that? I guess solving the problem for the best kids is better than solving it for none of them, but still...
If you follow the link to Hannah-Jones ProPublica article about Normandy, it talks about how St. Louis dabbled with this in the 80s, allowing students from not-great schools in inner St. Louis to go to better schools in St. Louis County before it was ended because of "cost issues." I graduated from one of the County schools that was part of this program (attended '87-'89)--I lived in the district. A not-insignificant number of students from the city (mostly black) chose to ride buses 20 miles every day to attend my school (vast majority of district students were white). I don't know what the graduation rates were for the city kids vs. the district kids, but I do know that not even an inkling of the doom these Francis Howell chucklefucks are whining about came to pass. The school was still one of the top public high schools in the nation. No violence, no need for metal detectors, no accreditation issues; the only tomfoolery I remember while I was there--which included a rash of locker break-ins and a bomb threat--was perpetrated by (white) district kids. All of which will surprise exactly no one on this board.
The people saying that they would need metal detectors really made me see red. WTF are they thinking? That all poor, black kids own guns and that they're armed at all times? That they're all in gangs?
If you follow the link to Hannah-Jones ProPublica article about Normandy, it talks about how St. Louis dabbled with this in the 80s, allowing students from not-great schools in inner St. Louis to go to better schools in St. Louis County before it was ended because of "cost issues." I graduated from one of the County schools that was part of this program (attended '87-'89)--I lived in the district. A not-insignificant number of students from the city (mostly black) chose to ride buses 20 miles every day to attend my school (vast majority of district students were white). I don't know what the graduation rates were for the city kids vs. the district kids, but I do know that not even an inkling of the doom these Francis Howell chucklefucks are whining about came to pass. The school was still one of the top public high schools in the nation. No violence, no need for metal detectors, no accreditation issues; the only tomfoolery I remember while I was there--which included a rash of locker break-ins and a bomb threat--was perpetrated by (white) district kids. All of which will surprise exactly no one on this board.
The people saying that they would need metal detectors really made me see red. WTF are they thinking? That all poor, black kids own guns and that they're armed at all times? That they're all in gangs?
This- there's such a selection effect that people don't consider. It's a pretty special set of students (and parents) who voluntarily choose to make their school day more difficult.
This is actually the thing that concerns me about this type of desegregation. If it's just the best kids from the poor schools moving to the rich, mostly white schools, doesn't that actually make the poor schools even worse, since their best students are now gone? When school attendance is based on where you live, and when you live in a highly segregated area (by race and by SEC), how do you solve that? I guess solving the problem for the best kids is better than solving it for none of them, but still...
Excellent point, for sure. You've still got a huge problem in the original district. I wish I had the answer to that, because it's terrible and unfair. Still, I wonder if this could be part of the solution in some way. Maybe it's possible that a rising tide lifts all boats, at least a little. So, in the short term, little Kaley comes home and tells her friend Stephanie from the old school how great this book is, so Stephanie reads more, too. Maybe the wealthy members of the town start to see that the poor kids who have made friends with their little preciouses are awesome kids, and are more likely to vote to devote more money to schools in the next referendum. Perhaps the awesome teacher at the rich school realizes she loves working with lower income kids and decides to change districts so she doesn't have to deal with some of the helicopter parents any more. Or, in the long run, if the kids who receive the better education stay in their old neighborhoods, get great jobs, add to the tax base significantly, and then the city can use that money to improve the other schools as well.
This- there's such a selection effect that people don't consider. It's a pretty special set of students (and parents) who voluntarily choose to make their school day more difficult.
This is actually the thing that concerns me about this type of desegregation. If it's just the best kids from the poor schools moving to the rich, mostly white schools, doesn't that actually make the poor schools even worse, since their best students are now gone? When school attendance is based on where you live, and when you live in a highly segregated area (by race and by SEC), how do you solve that? I guess solving the problem for the best kids is better than solving it for none of them, but still...
They sort of talk about this - not at the level of logistics but at least in terms of data: during the 17 years where school integration was an active part of education policy, the achievement gap for black students was cut in half. And IIRC, those data look at all black kids, not just those who were bussed to whiter schools. Now, does this mean that there was no change for kids who stayed at their same schools and that the bussed kids had an even better outcome? Or was there an impact on those kids who did not change schools at all (which is sort of your question). I don't know.
This- there's such a selection effect that people don't consider. It's a pretty special set of students (and parents) who voluntarily choose to make their school day more difficult.
This is actually the thing that concerns me about this type of desegregation. If it's just the best kids from the poor schools moving to the rich, mostly white schools, doesn't that actually make the poor schools even worse, since their best students are now gone? When school attendance is based on where you live, and when you live in a highly segregated area (by race and by SEC), how do you solve that? I guess solving the problem for the best kids is better than solving it for none of them, but still...
I was thinking this too. Hasn't NYC tried to do something about this by making one big district where you rank your chosen schools from all over the city vs. attend your neighborhood school by default? I thought I read that. How has that worked out? Anyone know?
(so in other words, instead of letting kids from the first district self select into the second, they could take the two districts and mix all the schools up).
I also had to read it several times because I kept reading it as, "My child was taken from her daycare by someone who steals children." I think I'm supposed to have read it as, "One of the kids took some of her personal belongings."
Post by EloiseWeenie on Aug 3, 2015 20:10:36 GMT -5
My H emailed me this morning and told me to listen to this episode. Ugh, it made me cry. And it's shady AF that they are getting around sending kids to thriving districts, by making their district non-accredited.
The town hall meeting was hard to listen to. I wonder if those who spoke at the meeting listened to the podcast, and heard their own words, framed in a different perspective. I hope they hear how callous and hateful they sound.
If you follow the link to Hannah-Jones ProPublica article about Normandy, it talks about how St. Louis dabbled with this in the 80s, allowing students from not-great schools in inner St. Louis to go to better schools in St. Louis County before it was ended because of "cost issues." I graduated from one of the County schools that was part of this program (attended '87-'89)--I lived in the district. A not-insignificant number of students from the city (mostly black) chose to ride buses 20 miles every day to attend my school (vast majority of district students were white). I don't know what the graduation rates were for the city kids vs. the district kids, but I do know that not even an inkling of the doom these Francis Howell chucklefucks are whining about came to pass. The school was still one of the top public high schools in the nation. No violence, no need for metal detectors, no accreditation issues; the only tomfoolery I remember while I was there--which included a rash of locker break-ins and a bomb threat--was perpetrated by (white) district kids. All of which will surprise exactly no one on this board.
The people saying that they would need metal detectors really made me see red. WTF are they thinking? That all poor, black kids own guns and that they're armed at all times? That they're all in gangs?
I lived in that school district a few years ago. That is exactly what they are thinking
This is actually the thing that concerns me about this type of desegregation. If it's just the best kids from the poor schools moving to the rich, mostly white schools, doesn't that actually make the poor schools even worse, since their best students are now gone? When school attendance is based on where you live, and when you live in a highly segregated area (by race and by SEC), how do you solve that? I guess solving the problem for the best kids is better than solving it for none of them, but still...
I was thinking this too. Hasn't NYC tried to do something about this by making one big district where you rank your chosen schools from all over the city vs. attend your neighborhood school by default? I thought I read that. How has that worked out? Anyone know?
(so in other words, instead of letting kids from the first district self select into the second, they could take the two districts and mix all the schools up).
Columbus does this for high school, but I don't know how well it works.
I haven't listened but will. I'm a firm believer in supporting public, integrated, education. I live in a fairly diverse neighborhood for Portland and our local elementary is a Title I school. We send our kids and work hard to support the school and help to build it up. Our neighbors opted to use their parent's address and send their kids to school in a neighboring (very wealthy) town. It really bothers me and totally made me reevaluate my relationship with them. It bothered me that their special (white) snowflake was too good to go to school with the "poor" minority kids.
What are these parents thinking? I know exactly what they are thinking but come on! The 1,000 students that transferred are not going to be an issue. Their parents and the students are going way out of their way to get a better education. They want out of their current situation and actually want to learn. These kids are not problem kids. That meeting was terrible.
Now that I've listened to the podcast I realize I did the opposite and transferred my kid from the "good" school to the "bad". It turned out to be a bad experience for her so it didn't work out.
My sister went to magnet schools that she had to be bussed to and all were were in bad areas. She did very well in the schools and didn't experience the issues my daughter experienced.
I need your thoughts here. I have learned that most of the EARTH is better than me cause I am not finna help you with your math after you called me a dumb n-word.
I need your thoughts here. I have learned that most of the EARTH is better than me cause I am not finna help you with your math after you called me a dumb n-word.
I haven't listened to the podcast, but will later. But reading the responses here just emphasizes my mixed feelings on the subject. I live in an area that is in the middle of revitalization. Things slowed significantly with the housing bubble burst. The elementary school near me is terrible. I will not send my child there. I have said this before. I don't have an issue getting together with parents and being involved and trying to make a school better. But I will not be one of a small few parents who put in that effort and let my child be the guinea pig when I can afford to send her somewhere better. So I am part of the problem. But this is my kid I am talking about. There are some really good schools in my area even though the area is not great, but that is not what we are zoned for. So it is not like I am saying that all schools in poor areas are bad. Hell the #2 and #4 schools in my state are in the "bad county". But as long as I have the ability, I will send my DD somewhere better.
Listen to the Podcast, you are NOT part of the problem. Wait till you hear the parents of the "good" school district. I am heated.