Pope to allow priests to forgive abortion

[anodyne]

www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/09/01/pope-allow-priests-forgive-abortion/71502832/

Pope to allow priests to forgive abortion

John Bacon, USA TODAY
2 minutes ago
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AFP/Getty Images
Pope Francis celebrates mass in Santa Marta at the Vatican on September 1, 2015.

The Roman Catholic Church will grant priests the right to forgive the sin of abortion for women who are contrite, Pope Francis said in a letter published Tuesday by the Vatican.

The pope said priests will have the power to absolve women of the sin during a special "Holy Year of Mercy" that begins in December.
The church considers abortion a serious sin, and church leaders historically have been outspoken against the practice. Abortion can be grounds for excommunication from the church. The pope acknowledges society's "loss of the proper personal and social sensitivity to welcome new life." But he says some women don't comprehend the import of terminating a pregnancy and believe they have no other option.

"I think in particular of all the women who have resorted to abortion. I am well aware of the pressure that has led them to this decision," Pope Francis said. "I know that it is an existential and moral ordeal. I have met so many women who bear in their heart the scar of this agonizing and painful decision. What has happened is profoundly unjust; yet only understanding the truth of it can enable one not to lose hope."

Pope Francis also alluded to the power of God's forgiveness when people are truly sorry for what the church views as their mistakes.
"I have decided, notwithstanding anything to the contrary, to concede to all priests for the Jubilee Year the discretion to absolve of the sin of abortion those who have procured it and who, with contrite heart, seek forgiveness for it," the pope said.

The letter is the latest in a series of efforts from the pope to focus on inclusion.

Pope Francis announced in March plans for the Holy Year, which begins with the Feast of the Immaculate Conception on Dec. 8 and will run through Nov. 20, 2016. Archbishop Rino Fisichella, president of the church's Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization, said the focus of the Holy Year will be to follow the example of God, who asks Catholics not to judge or condemn but to forgive and to love.

[IIOY]

It's unfortunate he has to ground in this in the supposed ignorance of women who choose to abort but Catholic Church and all that.

[omgzombies]

Baby steps.

[ttt]

It's crazy to me that it has been previously forgivable to murder a newborn baby but not to have an abortion.

[eponinepontmercy]

I feel sorry for women who think they need this forgiveness.

[wambam]

Am I reading this correctly that abortion was until now, thought to be an unforgivable sin by the Catholic church? That's...interesting...from a theological perspective.

[sfy]

Wow. I'm stunned.

[eclaires]

Sept 1, 2015 7:41:24 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

I feel sorry for women who think they need this forgiveness.

In a way, I feel like this too, but as a practicing Catholic who does believe life begins at conception, even if I had to have an abortion for whatever reason, I would feel guilty and want forgiveness.  IDK, I can see why people don't need it or want it, but from my point of view, I would want it.  I guess I'm thinking of it from my perspective where - at this point in my life - the only reason I would have an abortion would be to save my own life or if the fetus had a painful in utero issue that was incompatible with life.  So I know making that decision in either case would wreck me.

I keep thinking about all those articles I've read from devout/practicing Catholics who had to make tough choices for themselves or for their babies, and I think this would mean a lot to them and be good for them.  I know in some of those cases, the abortion is indirect and is compatible with Catholic teaching, but still.

I also don't love the way it's couched in "they don't understand" language.  At the same time, what if it is something they regret and do want absolution/forgiveness and that is meaningful for them, I'm glad they can seek it.  

I'm a total HAC though so I don't even think you need to confess to a priest to gain forgiveness - heathen!  But it does mean something to some and I'm glad they have that option if they feel they need it.

[amynumbers]

Sept 1, 2015 7:38:19 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Baby steps.

I don't go here, but I lurk.  This was my initial response too, as it is on lots of the Pope's seemingly encouraging comments on any number of issues.  This "Wow, he is so progressive but he needs to take the tiny steps on these topics in order to create change."

But I keep coming back to the idea that no, he doesn't.  He's the Pope.  Isn't the whole deal that we are supposed to buy he is infallible?  He's not the President or Congress or some other elected official.  He could wake up tomorrow and tell us the Holy Spirit revealed to him that Christ is on earth in the body of Miley Cyrus and we would have to take that as true because the Holy Spirit told him so, and he's infallible.

I like where he is going with things, buy I continue to struggle with the idea that lots of people have that he really wants to make women and gay Catholics equal in the Church.  Because if he wanted to say that, he could.  He is literally the only person who can just flat out say that in the world and have immediate change, and he's not.

[karinothing]

I am with eclaires. As a Catholic if I had an abortion I would seek forgiveness. Just because I think woman should be able to have abortions doesn't mean I think they (abortions) are 100% fine when it comes to religious morality

[karinothing]

Sept 1, 2015 8:03:17 GMT -5 amynumbers said:

Sept 1, 2015 7:38:19 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Baby steps.

I don't go here, but I lurk.  This was my initial response too, as it it on lost of the Pope's seemingly encouraging comments on any number of issues.  This "Wow, he is so progressive but he needs to take the tiny steps on these topics in order to create change."

But I keep coming back to the idea that no, he doesn't.  He's the Pope.  Isn't the whole deal that we are supposed to buy he is infallible?  He's not the President or Congress or some other elected official.  He could wake up tomorrow and tell us the Holy Spirit revealed to him that Christ's is on earth in the body of Miley Cyrus and we would have to take that as true because the Holy Spirit told him so, and he's infallible.

I like where he is going with things, buy I continue to struggle with the idea that lots of people have that he really wants to make women and gay Catholics equal in the Church.  Because if he wanted to say that, he could.  He is literally the only person who can just flat out say that in the world and have immediate change, and he's not.

In order to have legitimacy in Catholicism or any religion you can't just make drastic change over night. Expecially when it comes to doctrine

[ttt]

Sept 1, 2015 7:41:24 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

I feel sorry for women who think they need this forgiveness.

I don't know. A lot of people do see abortion as morally wrong, and that's their prerogative. A lot of people see eating bacon as morally wrong - I don't, but I respect their belief. 

[amynumbers]

Sept 1, 2015 8:05:32 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:03:17 GMT -5 amynumbers said:

I don't go here, but I lurk.  This was my initial response too, as it it on lost of the Pope's seemingly encouraging comments on any number of issues.  This "Wow, he is so progressive but he needs to take the tiny steps on these topics in order to create change."

But I keep coming back to the idea that no, he doesn't.  He's the Pope.  Isn't the whole deal that we are supposed to buy he is infallible?  He's not the President or Congress or some other elected official.  He could wake up tomorrow and tell us the Holy Spirit revealed to him that Christ's is on earth in the body of Miley Cyrus and we would have to take that as true because the Holy Spirit told him so, and he's infallible.

I like where he is going with things, buy I continue to struggle with the idea that lots of people have that he really wants to make women and gay Catholics equal in the Church.  Because if he wanted to say that, he could.  He is literally the only person who can just flat out say that in the world and have immediate change, and he's not.

In order to have legitimacy in Catholicism or any religion you can't just make drastic change over night. Expecially when it comes to doctrine

I actually agree.  But then to me you can't really hang your hat on this idea of infallibility in a human being or being inspired by the Holy Spirit.  I doubt the Holy Spirit inspires a Pope, and it's accompanied by a 3 year public relations roll out plan.  It's either right or wrong -- it's not "kind of sort of wrong but we need to slow our roll to let old timers get on board".

[IIOY]

Sept 1, 2015 8:05:32 GMT -5 karinothing said:

In order to have legitimacy in Catholicism or any religion you can't just make drastic change over night. Expecially when it comes to doctrine

As much as I disagree with the Church on certain issues, I must admit it makes me the slightest bit stabby when people come into threads about Catholicism complaining about the slow pace of change.

[amynumbers]

Sept 1, 2015 8:11:44 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:05:32 GMT -5 karinothing said:

In order to have legitimacy in Catholicism or any religion you can't just make drastic change over night. Expecially when it comes to doctrine

As much as I disagree with the Church on certain issues, I must admit it makes me the slightest bit stabby when people come into threads about Catholicism complaining about the slow pace of change.

Well, I'm a lapsed Catholic.  I've had a lifetime of twiddling my thumbs, and there have been lifetimes before mine.  Living it makes me stabby.

[karinothing]

Sept 1, 2015 8:09:36 GMT -5 amynumbers said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:05:32 GMT -5 karinothing said:

In order to have legitimacy in Catholicism or any religion you can't just make drastic change over night. Expecially when it comes to doctrine

I actually agree.  But then to me you can't really hang your hat on this idea of infallibility in a human being or being inspired by the Holy Spirit.  I doubt the Holy Spirit inspires a Pope, and it's accompanied by a 3 year public relations roll out plan.  It's either right or wrong -- it's not "kind of sort of wrong but we need to slow our roll to let old timers get on board".

Except he is only infallible on doctrine. Most of this stuff he talks about is not doctrine. AND you can't just change already existing doctrine . Like baby limbo that was change or well eliminated but that could be done as it was never doctrine

[eponinepontmercy]

Sept 1, 2015 8:07:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

Sept 1, 2015 7:41:24 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

I feel sorry for women who think they need this forgiveness.

I don't know. A lot of people do see abortion as morally wrong, and that's their prerogative. A lot of people see eating bacon as morally wrong - I don't, but I respect their belief. 

I don't mean that in a critical way, like they are wrong for wanting it.  Women are told that having an abortion is wrong and they should feel guilty about it.  From what I've read, most women do not regret having an abortion, and this flies in the face of that research.  It's still overly paternalistic and views women as children that need to be taught and guided through life.

[anodyne]

The Church has always been 100 years behind the times. In the Catholic world, this is huge. To have the Pope even touch on the reasons why women choose abortion is huge. If the congregations could get behind the why rather than just sending a check and standing outside a PP once a year, a dent could be made in the socioeconomic reasons behind why some women choose abortion.

[karinothing]

Sept 1, 2015 8:15:53 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:07:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

I don't know. A lot of people do see abortion as morally wrong, and that's their prerogative. A lot of people see eating bacon as morally wrong - I don't, but I respect their belief. 

I don't mean that in a critical way, like they are wrong for wanting it.  Women are told that having an abortion is wrong and they should feel guilty about it.  From what I've read, most women do not regret having an abortion, and this flies in the face of that research.  It's still overly paternalistic and views women as children that need to be taught and guided through life.

I just think they are two seperate issues. I don't regret premarital sex with my husband. But that doesn't mean I was right with God or didn't go to confession before my wedding

[amynumbers]

Sept 1, 2015 8:20:43 GMT -5 anodyne said:

The Church has always been 100 years behind the times. In the Catholic world, this is huge. To have the Pope even touch on the reasons why women choose abortion is huge. If the congregations could get behind the why rather than just sending a check and standing outside a PP once a year, a dent could be made in the socioeconomic reasons behind why some women choose abortion.

That is what struck me more than anything else in the statement -- the acknowledgement that it isn't some sort of easy decision and that in many cases a series of shitty circumstances that we actually do have the power to change contribute the decision.

Even if it is only a limited time offer available at only participating locations.

[eclaires]

Sept 1, 2015 8:15:53 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:07:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

I don't know. A lot of people do see abortion as morally wrong, and that's their prerogative. A lot of people see eating bacon as morally wrong - I don't, but I respect their belief. 

I don't mean that in a critical way, like they are wrong for wanting it.  Women are told that having an abortion is wrong and they should feel guilty about it.  From what I've read, most women do not regret having an abortion, and this flies in the face of that research.  It's still overly paternalistic and views women as children that need to be taught and guided through life.

But do those studies account/apply for practicing Catholics?  I feel like this is really specific and I think practicing female Catholics are more likely to feel guilt over this than those who aren't religious.  Regret is also not the same as guilt, too, and again, I think a practicing female Catholic is more likely to feel guilt and a need for forgiveness even if they don't necessarily regret the abortion (but are sorry for it).  I mean I think you can feel guilt and be sorry for something, but not regret the actual choice.  Like maybe it truly was the right choice for you at the time, but you feel guilt over it and are truly sorry that was the choice you made, even if it was the right choice in those circumstances.

IDK, I just could see where Catholic females feel guilt for these choices and would like absolution/forgiveness.  I don't think you can extrapolate studies of a general group of women to practicing Catholic women.  Total non-serious example: I know I feel guilty/sorry for missing church, even if I don't necessarily think that it's that important that I attend because I was raised Catholic and we went to mass more than once a week.  But if I'm not Catholic, of course I don't feel guilty/sorry for missing mass or like I need forgiveness.

[wambam]

Sept 1, 2015 8:33:42 GMT -5 @upnorth said:

Sept 1, 2015 7:44:50 GMT -5 wambam said:

Am I reading this correctly that abortion was until now, thought to be an unforgivable sin by the Catholic church? That's...interesting...from a theological perspective.

No, it's just that ordinary priests cannot give absolution for that sin-only a bishop (or higher).

Ahh I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[ttt]

Sept 1, 2015 8:15:53 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:07:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

I don't know. A lot of people do see abortion as morally wrong, and that's their prerogative. A lot of people see eating bacon as morally wrong - I don't, but I respect their belief. 

I don't mean that in a critical way, like they are wrong for wanting it.  Women are told that having an abortion is wrong and they should feel guilty about it.  From what I've read, most women do not regret having an abortion, and this flies in the face of that research.  It's still overly paternalistic and views women as children that need to be taught and guided through life.

I feel like this is true of a lot of religious things, though. Most people don't really feel guilty or regret having sex before marriage, not going to church on Sunday, drinking alcohol, etc. but their religion tells them they should feel guilty about it.

Isn't feeling guilty about everything kind of the whole crux of being Catholic??

[underwaterrhymes]

I'm not Catholic. I'm pro-choice and probably borderline socialist. I really hate the stance many religions take when it comes to equality and personal freedoms.

But I fucking love this Pope.

He has made so many changes and positive statements and I am sure we will continue to see more out of him in this vein. I think they appear like baby steps to most of us who know that human rights have often fallen prey to faith and doctrine, but while these are not progressive changes in the grand scheme of things, they absolutely are within the church.

This is a religious leader who questions and actually tries to see how the bible fits in with life in the twenty-first century. That is huge.

[eclaires]

Sept 1, 2015 8:34:44 GMT -5 ttt said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:15:53 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

I don't mean that in a critical way, like they are wrong for wanting it.  Women are told that having an abortion is wrong and they should feel guilty about it.  From what I've read, most women do not regret having an abortion, and this flies in the face of that research.  It's still overly paternalistic and views women as children that need to be taught and guided through life.

I feel like this is true of a lot of religious things, though. Most people don't really feel guilty or regret having sex before marriage, not going to church on Sunday, drinking alcohol, etc. but their religion tells them they should feel guilty about it.

Isn't feeling guilty about everything kind of the whole crux of being Catholic??

Catholic guilt is totally a thing.  I have so much guilt over the most random things that my non-Catholic husband doesn't even understand, lol.

[eponinepontmercy]

Thinking about it, my opinion is based on my own issues with the Catholic church. And yes, guilt is totally a thing, right down to feeling guilty about not calling oneself Catholic anymore.

I do wonder if there have been any studies about how Catholic women feel after an abortion.

[IIOY]

Sept 1, 2015 8:39:23 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:34:44 GMT -5 ttt said:

I feel like this is true of a lot of religious things, though. Most people don't really feel guilty or regret having sex before marriage, not going to church on Sunday, drinking alcohol, etc. but their religion tells them they should feel guilty about it.

Isn't feeling guilty about everything kind of the whole crux of being Catholic??

Catholic guilt is totally a thing.  I have so much guilt over the most random things that my non-Catholic husband doesn't even understand, lol.

I've come around to the belief that you can't truly appreciate the intensity of Catholic guilt unless you are a non-Catholic looking in because you need some non-Catholic perspective for comparison.  LOL

[saz]

Sept 1, 2015 7:38:41 GMT -5 ttt said:

It's crazy to me that it has been previously forgivable to murder a newborn baby but not to have an abortion.

THIS! I guess I just figured you could get forgiven for anything if you asked! So that's just for protestants then?

[sushi]

Sept 1, 2015 8:45:33 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:39:23 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Catholic guilt is totally a thing.  I have so much guilt over the most random things that my non-Catholic husband doesn't even understand, lol.

I've come around to the belief that you can't truly appreciate the intensity of Catholic guilt unless you are a non-Catholic looking in because you need some non-Catholic perspective for comparison.  LOL

LOL. I've tried to figure out of Jewish mom guilt or Catholic grandma guilt is stronger (I have one of the latter and was adopted by quite a few of the former). I think it's an even fight. 

I can understand eclaires point that you might want absolution even while not having regret. I'm not sure how the studies have been phrased, but I imagine there would be different statistics if there were questions like, have you felt guilt/thought about it often/pictured the future baby? vs do you regret your decision and wish you had made a different one?

But did he really have to pat the little ladies on the head? Women know what they're doing. They don't need a mandatory ultrasound, a mandatory script, or avuncular words from the pope.

[pescalita]

I'm with eclaires and ttt. When I found myself unexpectedly pregnant, at the end of the day I didn't want an abortion and I didn't have to have one. What I wanted was not to be pregnant, but I didn't have that option. Much as it might be to you, to me, having an abortion was not the same as not being pregnant. But in another life with different circumstances, I might have chosen differently, and I would definitely have some need for forgiveness. And not because someone told me to feel bad about it.

IIOY that's probably really accurate about needing outside perspective. The Catholicism I was raised with was really truly only cultural (no catechism, only church on C&E, just a mother raised in the church) and my guilt issues are next level, but I never know whether to trust if I'm being ridiculous.