18 year olds allowed to drive big rigs cross-country??

[ttt]

Oh and also cutting rest times so they'll be sleep-deprived 18 year olds driving death machines. GREAT. 


www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/09/03/truck-safety-labor-day-congress-editorials-debates/71661704/

As you hit the road this holiday weekend, with AAA predicting the highest travel volume in seven years, think about what travel might look like on Labor Day 2016.

If the powerful trucking industry gets its way on Capitol Hill this month, interstate highways could be clogged with longer trucks, sleepier drivers and 18-year-olds behind the wheel of big rigs.


These troubling changes would be dumped on top of an already dangerous mix. On an average day in the USA, large trucks are involved in nearly 10 fatal crashes. The death toll rose every year from 2009 through 2013, the most recent year for which data are available. And in the majority of fatal accidents, occupants of the smaller vehicle died.

The worst idea making its way through Congress would allow drivers as young as 18 to drive commercial trucks across state lines. Many parents worry about teenagers driving the family car, much less big rigs. The nation’s two largest rental car companies, Enterprise and Hertz, generally do not rent to anyone younger than 21 — and with good reason. The fatal crash rate for 18- to 20-year-old drivers is more than double the rate for drivers 21 and older, according to an analysis of government data by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

While state laws already allow 18-year-olds to get commercial licenses and drive trucks within their states, a federal ban has kept them from crossing state lines. When similar proposals to put them behind the wheel were advanced in the early 2000s, the insurance institute, a non-profit safety advocacy group, opposed them, saying there was “unequivocal scientific evidence of a markedly elevated crash risk” among those under 21 driving large trucks in states.

A spokesman says the group's concerns have not changed: Young drivers overestimate their skills, underestimate risk on the road, are more likely to speed and engage in other risky habits, and are less likely to know how to respond correctly to hazards.

Putting these younger drivers in bigger vehicles on more roads is certainly no way to ameliorate those risks.

The industry's wish list also includes other worrisome changes. One would gut a sensible provision that requires drivers who've hit their maximum hours (for instance, 70 hours in eight days) to take 34 hours off, with two nighttime periods for sleep. Eliminating one of the nighttime sleep periods, as the industry wants, runs counter to scientific studies, expert opinions and common sense — all of which show the restorative powers of nighttime sleep, which coincides with people’s circadian rhythms.

Another proposed change would pre-empt laws in 39 states and force those states to allow double trailers of 33 feet each, rather than the current maximum of 28 feet apiece.

The industry claims that each of these provisions — longer trucks, less overnight sleep and younger drivers — would make roads safer. Yeah, right.

Despite safety advocates' objections, much of the trucking industry's agenda is moving successfully through Congress, where the industry often gets its way. Individuals and political action committees associated with the industry contributed nearly $8 million during the 2014 midterm elections, much of it going to lawmakers who chair or sit on congressional committees that shape trucking legislation.

For a time last summer, truck safety had the public's attention after comedian Tracy Morgan was critically injured, and a fellow comedian was killed, when a sleep-deprived tractor-trailer driver slammed into their Mercedes limousine on the New Jersey Turnpike.

Last month, the National Transportation Safety Board found that fatigue was the chief cause of that crash. The driver had been awake for 28 hours at the time of the crash, including the hours driving from his Georgia home to his Delaware workplace to start his shift.

Cutting nighttime sleep hours, and putting longer trucks and younger drivers on the road, is no solution for a problem that kills more than 3,000 non-celebrities every year.

[IIOY]

My God. I mean, truck drivers are literally the Worst People Ever as it is. Now this?

::sells car::

[onthemove]

So flying a helicopter into war is ok, but driving a truck across state lines is not?

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2015 13:02:32 GMT -5 onthemove said:

So flying a helicopter into war is ok, but driving a truck across state lines is not?

I'm willing to bet that military helicopter pilots go through a lot more training and supervision than big rig drivers do. 

[ttt]

Here's another article on it. This is a transparent attempt by the trucking industry to keep wages low, safety be damned.

bigstory.ap.org/article/c297138414e942159a1a712da220cb63/senators-pushing-lower-interstate-truck-driver-age-18

WASHINGTON (AP) — Parents may hesitate to hand teens the keys to the family car, but Congress is proposing to allow drivers as young as 18 to get behind the wheel of big rigs on the nation's interstates

Federal regulations currently require drivers be at least 21 before they can drive commercial trucks across state lines, but a bill introduced this week by Republican senators would allow contiguous states that join together in "compacts" to drop the age threshold to 18 for interstate trips. There is no limit on the number of states that could join the compacts.

After four years, the Transportation secretary is supposed to report to Congress on whether teens have "an equivalent level of safety" in comparison with older truckers.

In 2013, all drivers ages 18-20 had a fatal crash involvement rate, per 100,000 licensed drivers, that was 66 percent higher than drivers who were age 21 years or older, according to the Transportation Department's Fatality Analysis Reporting System, although the total number of crash deaths among teens has been declining since 2002.

The change was sought by the trucking industry to help address a shortage of truck drivers. The American Trucking Associations estimates that the current shortage of drivers is roughly 35,000 to 40,000, but because of retirements and individuals leaving the industry, trucking companies will need to recruit nearly 100,000 new drivers a year over the next decade to keep pace with the country's freight needs.

But Jackie Gillan, president of Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety, said allowing teens to drive trucks weighing as much as 80,000 pounds and to work as many as 82 hours a week, as is permitted in the truck industry, is a "catastrophe waiting to happen."

"The combination of inexperience, high-risk driving and large trucks can cause unbelievable devastation," she said.

Dave Osiecki, chief of advocacy for trucking associations, said states already allow teens to drive commercial trucks unlimited miles within their borders. For example, it makes no sense to allow a teen truck driver to drive hundreds of miles from one end to the other of a state like Virginia, but prohibit the same driver from crossing the Potomac River into Washington, he said.

"We absolutely support" lowering the age limit, he said. "It would be good for our industry, it would be good for commerce, it would be good for the economy."

Legislation to allow states to lower the age for a commercial, interstate license to 18 was first introduced by Sen. Deb Fischer, R-Neb., and was incorporated into a larger transportation bill introduced this week by Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John Thune, R-S.D., Sen. Jerry Moran, R-Kan., and Fischer.

The bill would restrict teen truckers from hauling hazardous materials or operating "special configurations," which are generally defined as oversized or overweight loads. States and the U.S. Department of Transportation would also be allowed impose other restrictions if they wish.

States wouldn't be obligated to join the compacts, but Gillan said she expects state officials would be under pressure from trucking industry to do so.

To obtain an interstate commercial driver's license, drivers must pass a written knowledge test and a driving skills test administered by a state motor vehicles department. But there is no requirement that drivers first receive on the road training or attend a training school, Gillan said.

Labor unions have said the driver shortage could be eliminated by raising truckers' wages and improving working conditions.

A decade ago the Bush administration looked at lowering the commercial truck driving age to 18, but ultimately decided against doing that because the public comments the government received were overwhelmingly against the idea.

[tacosforlife]

Sept 8, 2015 13:02:32 GMT -5 onthemove said:

So flying a helicopter into war is ok, but driving a truck across state lines is not?

[cattledogkisses]

Sept 8, 2015 13:04:20 GMT -5 ttt said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:02:32 GMT -5 onthemove said:

So flying a helicopter into war is ok, but driving a truck across state lines is not?

I'm willing to bet that military helicopter pilots go through a lot more training and supervision than big rig drivers do. 

Army flight school for helicopter pilots is 2 years long.  No one is flying helicopters into war at 18.

[onthemove]

I just find it interesting when we consider a "adult" a real adult vs this odd in between stage of 18-21. So an 18 yearold can vote, and fly a helicopter in the Army into war, but not a banana truck from CA to Oregon.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily a bad thing to have safety measures in place though, especially with time limits, just our arbitrary way of applying them when it is convenient for the rest of the population.

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2015 13:11:16 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:04:20 GMT -5 ttt said:

I'm willing to bet that military helicopter pilots go through a lot more training and supervision than big rig drivers do. 

Army flight school for helicopter pilots is 2 years long.  No one is flying helicopters into war at 18.

In comparison, big rig drivers can hit the road after only two weeks of training and passing a drivers test (and we all know that driving tests are SUPER effective at making sure licensed drivers are knowledgable and good drivers...). 

[onthemove]

Sept 8, 2015 13:11:16 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:04:20 GMT -5 ttt said:

I'm willing to bet that military helicopter pilots go through a lot more training and supervision than big rig drivers do. 

Army flight school for helicopter pilots is 2 years long.  No one is flying helicopters into war at 18.

sorry 19. You can start at 17.

I'm not debating the level of training involved, what if 18 year old truck drivers had a 30 day full on safety course mandated? Is it that they can't be trusted, or shouldn't be based on training, and such low industry standards?

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2015 13:12:12 GMT -5 onthemove said:

I just find it interesting when we consider a "adult" a real adult vs this odd in between stage of 18-21. So an 18 yearold can vote, and fly a helicopter in the Army into war, but not a banana truck from CA to Oregon.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily a bad thing to have safety measures in place though, especially with time limits, just our arbitrary way of applying them when it is convenient for the rest of the population.

Well again, 18 year olds aren't flying helicopters into war. And driving trucks is incredibly dangerous - mostly to the other people on the road - while voting is not. 

[cattledogkisses]

Sept 8, 2015 13:14:43 GMT -5 onthemove said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:11:16 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Army flight school for helicopter pilots is 2 years long.  No one is flying helicopters into war at 18.

sorry 19. You can start at 17.

I'm not debating the level of training involved, what if 18 year old truck drivers had a 30 day full on safety course mandated? Is it that they can't be trusted, or shouldn't be based on training, and such low industry standards?

You also need to be an officer or a warrant officer to be eligible to attend flight school.  17/18 year olds are not heading straight off to flight school as soon as they sign up.

[ttt]

I would be somewhat more open to this if they were also trying to increase training requirements and increase pay. But it's so blatantly obviously that the industry doesn't give a shit about safety- they're just trying to address the truck driver shortage by adding teenagers to the labor pool instead of actually raising wages for experienced drivers or to attract actual adults to the job.

[elleblue]

There's a reason you have to be 25 before you're able to rent a car!

[meltoine]

Military pilots have to be officers and therefore college graduates, so minimum 23.

[taratru]

Sept 8, 2015 13:04:20 GMT -5 ttt said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:02:32 GMT -5 onthemove said:

So flying a helicopter into war is ok, but driving a truck across state lines is not?

I'm willing to bet that military helicopter pilots go through a lot more training and supervision than big rig drivers do. 

I'm willing to bet that most military helicopter pilots aren't 18 years old. 

[onthemove]

I think we are getting stuck on this one example I was giving. Having an arbitrary time on something like this, vs industry regulation regarding training, supervision, periodic evaluations and training, I think is unhelpful. I totally agree that more legitimate protacalls need to be in place, but assigning an age minimum to this one job because it sounds good, does that actually keep us safer?

I realize that young drivers are more risky and certainly most don't have the judgement for the job, but is this type of rule in place for bus drivers, train conductors, other risky jobs I can't think of right now?

[ttt]

Sept 8, 2015 13:24:58 GMT -5 onthemove said:

I think we are getting stuck on this one example I was giving. Having an arbitrary time on something like this, vs industry regulation regarding training, supervision, periodic evaluations and training, I think is unhelpful. I totally agree that more legitimate protacalls need to be in place, but assigning an age minimum to this one job because it sounds good, does that actually keep us safer?

I realize that young drivers are more risky and certainly most don't have the judgement for the job, but is this type of rule in place for bus drivers, train conductors, other risky jobs I can't think of right now?

It does actually keep us safer. Trucks have a much higher accident rate per mile driven than automobiles (I believe they account for 7% of all miles driven, but 13% of all accidents, and accidents involving a big rig are far more likely to be fatal, usually to the car drivers/passengers). Every study on this has shown that drivers 18-21 have much higher accident rates than drivers 21-25. There is zero benefit to public safety to having 18 year olds be allowed to drive across state lines (personally, I don't even think they should be allowed to drive trucks intrastate either). This proposal is entirely for the benefit of the trucking industry's profits.   

ETA train conductors have to be 21 too. Interstate bus drivers do too. Federal law says that any commercial vehicle driver involved in interstate commerce must be 21 years old. www.fmcsa.dot.gov/faq/what-age-requirement-operating-cmv-interstate-commerce 

[cattledogkisses]

Sept 8, 2015 13:24:58 GMT -5 onthemove said:

I think we are getting stuck on this one example I was giving. Having an arbitrary time on something like this, vs industry regulation regarding training, supervision, periodic evaluations and training, I think is unhelpful. I totally agree that more legitimate protacalls need to be in place, but assigning an age minimum to this one job because it sounds good, does that actually keep us safer?

I realize that young drivers are more risky and certainly most don't have the judgement for the job, but is this type of rule in place for bus drivers, train conductors, other risky jobs I can't think of right now?

The statistics referenced in the article would say yes, it does keep us safer:


The fatal crash rate for 18- to 20-year-old drivers is more than double the rate for drivers 21 and older, according to an analysis of government data by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

Read more: pandce.proboards.com/post/10121815/quote/475729?page=1#ixzz3lAnSYRmV

[tacosforlife]

Sept 8, 2015 13:24:58 GMT -5 onthemove said:

I think we are getting stuck on this one example I was giving. Having an arbitrary time on something like this, vs industry regulation regarding training, supervision, periodic evaluations and training, I think is unhelpful. I totally agree that more legitimate protacalls need to be in place, but assigning an age minimum to this one job because it sounds good, does that actually keep us safer?

I realize that young drivers are more risky and certainly most don't have the judgement for the job, but is this type of rule in place for bus drivers, train conductors, other risky jobs I can't think of right now?

Here's the thing, though - the trucking industry isn't going to agree to stricter training requirements. And since Congress is beholden to lobbying groups, stricter training requirements aren't going to get passed.

So right now, we have a minimum age of 21 to cross state lines because that's what Congress has had the political will to pass. And there is objective evidence that says 18- to 20-year-old drivers pose a much bigger safety risk than those 21 and over.

Since, as ttt mentioned, this proposal doesn't include beefing up training and safety practices - rather, it actually reduces the time-off/sleep requirement! - along with the age reduction, we should reject it.

This isn't about an "arbitrary" age cutoff. It is an evidence-based determination. And given that it lacks the political well to otherwise improve road safety, Congress should keep the age cutoff.

[cattledogkisses]

Sept 8, 2015 13:29:51 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:24:58 GMT -5 onthemove said:

I think we are getting stuck on this one example I was giving. Having an arbitrary time on something like this, vs industry regulation regarding training, supervision, periodic evaluations and training, I think is unhelpful. I totally agree that more legitimate protacalls need to be in place, but assigning an age minimum to this one job because it sounds good, does that actually keep us safer?

I realize that young drivers are more risky and certainly most don't have the judgement for the job, but is this type of rule in place for bus drivers, train conductors, other risky jobs I can't think of right now?

Here's the thing, though - the trucking industry isn't going to agree to stricter training requirements. And since Congress is beholden to lobbying groups, stricter training requirements aren't going to get passed.

So right now, we have a minimum age of 21 to cross state lines because that's what Congress has had the political will to pass. And there is objective evidence that says 18- to 20-year-old drivers pose a much bigger safety risk than those 21 and over.

Since, as ttt mentioned, this proposal doesn't include beefing up training and safety practices - rather, it actually reduces the time-off/sleep requirement! - along with the age reduction, we should reject it.

This isn't about an "arbitrary" age cutoff. It is an evidence-based determination. And given that it lacks the political well to otherwise improve road safety, Congress should keep the age cutoff.

Yes, this right here. 

[onthemove]

Ok sounds like it is necessary then. I guess if I was a drinking industry person I would be tring to show how with an intensive training and screening program with appropriate standards in place that these 18-21 years irks can be trained to safely drive, but you are right that they don't care about that at all.

[tacosforlife]

So is there nothing left to argue about? I...but...um...

GODDAMMIT, PEOPLE, I AM NOT ENJOYING WORK TODAY!

[onthemove]

Sept 8, 2015 13:35:48 GMT -5 onthemove said:

Ok sounds like it is necessary then. I guess if I was a drinking industry person I would be tring to show how with an intensive training and screening program with appropriate standards in place that these 18-21 years irks can be trained to safely drive, but you are right that they don't care about that at all.

and of course I means driving, but I thinking the drinking industry should look into this more.

[tacosforlife]

Sept 8, 2015 13:38:45 GMT -5 onthemove said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:35:48 GMT -5 onthemove said:

Ok sounds like it is necessary then. I guess if I was a drinking industry person I would be tring to show how with an intensive training and screening program with appropriate standards in place that these 18-21 years irks can be trained to safely drive, but you are right that they don't care about that at all.

and of course I means driving, but I thinking the drinking industry should look into this more.

Nah, that ship sailed for the booze industry. The age used to be 18 in a lot of states. Louisiana was the last to give in. If St. Ronnie couldn't keep the drinking age at 18, nobody can.

[onthemove]

Sept 8, 2015 13:37:31 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

So is there nothing left to argue about? I...but...um...

GODDAMMIT, PEOPLE, I AM NOT ENJOYING WORK TODAY!

I am about to get onto a plane so I won't be able to respond, but I really am not hung up on this one driving thing, but how do we help those stuck in the still developing stages gain the skills and judgement necessary to get good paying jobs other than just telling them, wait 3 years then you can do it, you won't have done anything in the mean time to work towards this other than get older, but then we have to let you do it.

[onthemove]

Sept 8, 2015 13:41:13 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:38:45 GMT -5 onthemove said:

and of course I means driving, but I thinking the drinking industry should look into this more.

Nah, that ship sailed for the booze industry. The age used to be 18 in a lot of states. Louisiana was the last to give in. If St. Ronnie couldn't keep the drinking age at 18, nobody can.

my sarcasm voice is broken today, I'm batting like 0 for 10 now I think

[tacosforlife]

Sept 8, 2015 13:43:28 GMT -5 onthemove said:

Sept 8, 2015 13:37:31 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

So is there nothing left to argue about? I...but...um...

GODDAMMIT, PEOPLE, I AM NOT ENJOYING WORK TODAY!

I am about to get onto a plane so I won't be able to respond, but I really am not hung up on this one driving thing, but how do we help those stuck in the still developing stages gain the skills and judgement necessary to get good paying jobs other than just telling them, wait 3 years then you can do it, you won't have done anything in the mean time to work towards this other than get older, but then we have to let you do it.

That's fair, but I don't think that means we need to let 19-year-olds do long-haul trips from Virginia to California with decreased rest breaks. If it's truly about providing opportunity - SAFE opportunities - then I would think that having teen truckers would involve a) increased training, and b) some sort of apprentice program the way many skilled trades do. Further, 18- and 19-year-olds CAN drive intra-state routes in some states, so that would be one way they could get experience if they really want to pursue a driving career. There are also smaller vehicles that pose less of a public safety threat (I'm thinking like a laundry route for restaurant linens).

Given the whole context of this proposal - particularly the decreased sleep thing - it's clear that this proposal is about trying to increase the pool of truckers without raising wages or improving working conditions rather than actually providing anyone a good, safe opportunity for a middle-class lifestyle.