I'm not actually sure if girls really can straddle both masculine and femine worlds. Girly girls are not celebrated. Girls who like boyish things are though. There's a reason why "too girly" is a thing,
IDK. I think my daughter is pretty girly. She floves her skirts & her Barbies. She is enamored with make up in a way I will never relate to. And MY GOD she has so many purses. But, Iron Man, Robin, Star Wars, and cars are BIG with her. I don't think she actually likes football, though, I think she likes being part of the action. And the singing/cheering.
She's only in kindy so the world hasn't tried to crush her yet. I think she can do it.
Post by karinothing on Sept 12, 2015 23:29:34 GMT -5
Even though a certain subculture of guys wore skirts in the 90s I don't think it was accepted in main stream society. I mean I hung out with those guys. We got a lot of mean comments about being freaks. Even then, the skirts were never feminine IMO
My 2 yo boy loves wearing my 5 yo DD's barettes; I think he just likes pulling his hair out of his eyes. Is there a gender neutral hair accessory we could create?
BoyLiu had totally worn his sister's hand me downs. Some of them pink. I give no fucks, everyone thinks he's a girl anyway. It bothers H though, so I keep it to stuff he wears around the house. I think it's lame, but the man cooks my dinner, so I roll with it.
Also, I try to push BabyLiu away from pink (and red). They are not good colors on her. It's the red hair & pinkish complexion. I don't care for pink myself (or red, for that matter) but she's a different person, she's allowed her opinion.
For the most part, I try to let them like what they like. Unless it's objectively terrible. Like calliou.
Does this bother you? I accidentally made a mom-enemy when I complimented a beautiful child with long blond curls by saying "your daughter looks just like you!" She said "thanks, but he's a boy." She's been mean to me ever since. I'm like WTF? I was giving a compliment! If you let your three year old boy have beautiful shoulder-length curls and dress him in gender-neutral clothes, you CANNOT be offended if I think he's a girl. Plus, I was giving *her* a compliment! #sorrynotsorry.
Post by Dumbledork on Sept 12, 2015 23:41:10 GMT -5
My parents love that DD is completely in love with Batman and everything. They think it's adorable.
I mentioned in passing this summer that I thought a little boy's long hair was cute and I would have let DDs hair grow as long as I did, even if she was a he.
My mom shot me such a look and was very much "Really?! Well, it's a good thing you had a girl!"
I also had a friend steer her son away from a toy kitchen set because "that's for girls and daddy would be mad" and then turn to me, complain that her DS is always trying to play with girly things like kitchens and babies and then say "Your DD is kinda in to everything though, isn't she? That's neat."
YES, IT IS NEAT. That's why you should do it too. Your son wants a kitchen, let him have a freaking kitchen!
BoyLiu had totally worn his sister's hand me downs. Some of them pink. I give no fucks, everyone thinks he's a girl anyway. It bothers H though, so I keep it to stuff he wears around the house. I think it's lame, but the man cooks my dinner, so I roll with it.
Also, I try to push BabyLiu away from pink (and red). They are not good colors on her. It's the red hair & pinkish complexion. I don't care for pink myself (or red, for that matter) but she's a different person, she's allowed her opinion.
For the most part, I try to let them like what they like. Unless it's objectively terrible. Like calliou.
Does this bother you? I accidentally made a mom-enemy when I complimented a beautiful child with long blond curls by saying "your daughter looks just like you!" She said "thanks, but he's a boy." She's been mean to me ever since. I'm like WTF? I was giving a compliment! If you let your three year old boy have beautiful shoulder-length curls and dress him in gender-neutral clothes, you CANNOT be offended if I think he's a girl. Plus, I was giving *her* a compliment! #sorrynotsorry.
This is why I try to stick to gender neutral terms, at least until the parent drops a name or pronoun.
"Your little one looks just like you!"
I think part of the point of the article is that we shouldn't be able to assume that a kid with long curls in neutral clothes is a girl.
Does this bother you? I accidentally made a mom-enemy when I complimented a beautiful child with long blond curls by saying "your daughter looks just like you!" She said "thanks, but he's a boy." She's been mean to me ever since. I'm like WTF? I was giving a compliment! If you let your three year old boy have beautiful shoulder-length curls and dress him in gender-neutral clothes, you CANNOT be offended if I think he's a girl. Plus, I was giving *her* a compliment! #sorrynotsorry.
This is why I try to stick to gender neutral terms, at least until the parent drops a name or pronoun.
"Your little one looks just like you!"
I think part of the point of the article is that we shouldn't be able to assume that a kid with long curls in neutral clothes is a girl.
Yep. Totally agree. Learned my lesson with that one.
BoyLiu had totally worn his sister's hand me downs. Some of them pink. I give no fucks, everyone thinks he's a girl anyway. It bothers H though, so I keep it to stuff he wears around the house. I think it's lame, but the man cooks my dinner, so I roll with it.
Also, I try to push BabyLiu away from pink (and red). They are not good colors on her. It's the red hair & pinkish complexion. I don't care for pink myself (or red, for that matter) but she's a different person, she's allowed her opinion.
For the most part, I try to let them like what they like. Unless it's objectively terrible. Like calliou.
Does this bother you? I accidentally made a mom-enemy when I complimented a beautiful child with long blond curls by saying "your daughter looks just like you!" She said "thanks, but he's a boy." She's been mean to me ever since. I'm like WTF? I was giving a compliment! If you let your three year old boy have beautiful shoulder-length curls and dress him in gender-neutral clothes, you CANNOT be offended if I think he's a girl. Plus, I was giving *her* a compliment! #sorrynotsorry.
Not really. Unless I'm going to see someone a lot I don't even bother to correct them. Sometimes I don't get it because he looks like a boy to me, but he does have a mess of hair.
On the other hand, people still occasionally call BabyLiu a boy if she's not dressed in an overly feminine manner (and sometimes even then) because her hair is short. Again, I don't always correct people, but I don't always get it.
My parents love that DD is completely in love with Batman and everything. They think it's adorable.
I mentioned in passing this summer that I thought a little boy's long hair was cute and I would have let DDs hair grow as long as I did, even if she was a he.
My mom shot me such a look and was very much "Really?! Well, it's a good thing you had a girl!"
I also had a friend steer her son away from a toy kitchen set because "that's for girls and daddy would be mad" and then turn to me, complain that her DS is always trying to play with girly things like kitchens and babies and then say "Your DD is kinda in to everything though, isn't she? That's neat."
YES, IT IS NEAT. That's why you should do it too. Your son wants a kitchen, let him have a freaking kitchen!
I don't really understand it.
God my kids loooove some tea party. Both of them. And thank heavens because I'm not into it.
So yeah, I have a 4yo boy who likes pink and purple and wearing makeup. He also loves superheroes and trucks and almonds, but whatever. Like some of the PP, I thought I was enlightened until we went to a rodeo and he wanted a pink cowboy hat and I couldn't do it. (I didn't want to buy them hats anyway, so I went with it.) We went to Disney a few weeks ago, and a woman commented on his pink Magicband (a fancy bracelet for those of you not familiar). She wanted to know how he got pink, all incredulous like. Um, he picked it out like we all did. ?? So I guess I'll "let" (or whatever) him go so far but even I have a line. Which I'm working on, because I feel some shame about it, and I don't think it's fair to him.
Oh. I consider myself progressive for the most part, but then I read things that make me realize I'm not as progressive as I think, because I have no interest in seeing my son/husband in a dress. As long as girls/women can do/be/wear what they want, I'm pleased.
STORY TIME. I brought banana bread that my husband baked into work to share. One woman asked me how I got it to be so moist (twss) and I told her I had no idea, my husband made it. Her reply: "I've always said I didn't need a husband, but a wife."
I just stared at her then joked that I'm pretty sure he's a man, but I'll double check. Wtf. He's not my WIFE because he BAKES.
It might not be rational, but it really pisses me off when women belittle men like that since they get it enough from other men.
Just about every guy I've ever dated has been on the outside of what is often considered acceptable for men to look like, be interested in -- long hair, non-typical/sporty/preppy dress, not into sports, artistic/musical, health-conscious, etc. And some of them have had a really hard time with being judged by others because of it. Like a boyfriend of mine once brought in a salad to work for lunch, and you'd think instead, he'd brought in his balls on a plate with the way his male co-workers - and even some of his female co-workers - reacted to it.
Maybe I am talking out my ass here, but I feel like there was more mainstream genderbending stuff 30 - 40 years ago.
This is from a modern interview with the LEGO ad girl:
"In 1981, LEGOs were simple and gender-neutral, and the creativity of the child produced the message," Giordano told her. " In 2014, it’s the reverse: the toy delivers a message to the child, and this message is weirdly about gender.” Specifically, Giordano was talking about set from the new LEGO Friends line that was made specifically for girls -- a very pink news van marketed with this description: "Break the big story of the world’s best cake with the Heartlake News Van!"
The incomparable Mr. Bowie:
“You must understand that it's not a woman's -- it's a man's dress."
And finally, the Swedish hairband, Europe has the most glamorous lead singer. Men who wax off every bit of visible body hair and wear blush and lip gloss and are still manly? No biggie:
So 30 - 40 years ago, girls could act like boys and boys could acts like girls. But what happened? It is still okay for girls to act like boys. I feel like it is even expected to some extent in tech and science. But boys sampling girl-gendered* things? I know that some emo musicians wear nail polish sometimes, but that seems less progressive than what these mainstream musicians were doing 30 - 40 years ago.
* No, I'm pretty sure that girl-gendered isn't a word either. Deal with it. I also wish that there was a way to describe gender that was not onset-of-puberty specific. Girl and woman vs female.
I think gender norms are more fluid now then they were in the past, and that a large part of what you are looking at is marketing that is attempting to create buzz and grab attention by going against gender norms. Seeing a guy wearing a dress today isn't going to grab attention the way it did back then, it's not effective marketing anymore. Pink girl lego sets still existed back in the 80's, I know, because I refused to play with them.
No. No they weren't. Isn't that the point of the article? The "gender neutral" Legos were blue, red, yellow, green. That's as gender nuetral as if they were all pink, aqua, purple, and fuchsia.
What's wrong with pink Legos anyway? What's wrong with a pink Lego news van? What's wrong with pink?
My DD is incredibly girly. Tutus, princesses, ballet, bows, etc. This is how she identifies. It hasn't stopped her from obsessing over Star Wars lately.
We are flat out obsessed with the trappings of girls. It's frankly annoying.
The thing with LEGO is that in 1981 they were advertised as for boys and girls. The colors just happened to be bold, mostly primary colors. Now, the original LEGO colors are marketed to boys and the pink colors and sets are marketed for girls, cater to female stereotypes and don't even always interact with the original sets.
There's not technically anything wrong with pink Legos, but the fact that they've been used to class girls into an othered category is what's wrong. So, like the article shows, girls can play with the "regular" sets and the "girl" sets, but because the pink sets are marketed toward female stereotypes, you likely won't see boys playing with the "girl" sets.
Oh. I consider myself progressive for the most part, but then I read things that make me realize I'm not as progressive as I think, because I have no interest in seeing my son/husband in a dress. As long as girls/women can do/be/wear what they want, I'm pleased.
You don't have to make your male family members wear dresses, but I hope you don't disparage men that want to do traditionally feminine things. And I hope you correct your DH/son if they mock men that do traditionally feminine things.
I think freedom for girls and freedom for boys are two sides of the same coin. I think that as long as boys are limited to traditional gender roles, there will be at least some expectation that girls/women fill traditional gender roles. Or at least are responsible for certain activities. For example:
I think that men who are able to bake a Pinterest-worthy cake without judgement can free women from the expectation that they be mothers first. And that allows women to put their careers first and still have children with magical childhoods.
Oh. I consider myself progressive for the most part, but then I read things that make me realize I'm not as progressive as I think, because I have no interest in seeing my son/husband in a dress. As long as girls/women can do/be/wear what they want, I'm pleased.
You don't have to make your male family members wear dresses, but I hope you don't disparage men that want to do traditionally feminine things. And I hope you correct your DH/son if they mock men that do traditionally feminine things.
I think freedom for girls and freedom for boys are two sides of the same coin. I think that as long as boys are limited to traditional gender roles, there will be at least some expectation that girls/women fill traditional gender roles. Or at least are responsible for certain activities. For example:
I think that men who are able to bake a Pinterest-worthy cake without judgement can free women from the expectation that they be mothers first. And that allows women to put their careers first and still have children with magical childhoods.
They would never, so I don't need to correct that. Also, I agree.
Maybe I am talking out my ass here, but I feel like there was more mainstream genderbending stuff 30 - 40 years ago.
This is from a modern interview with the LEGO ad girl:
"In 1981, LEGOs were simple and gender-neutral, and the creativity of the child produced the message," Giordano told her. " In 2014, it’s the reverse: the toy delivers a message to the child, and this message is weirdly about gender.” Specifically, Giordano was talking about set from the new LEGO Friends line that was made specifically for girls -- a very pink news van marketed with this description: "Break the big story of the world’s best cake with the Heartlake News Van!"
The incomparable Mr. Bowie:
“You must understand that it's not a woman's -- it's a man's dress."
And finally, the Swedish hairband, Europe has the most glamorous lead singer. Men who wax off every bit of visible body hair and wear blush and lip gloss and are still manly? No biggie:
So 30 - 40 years ago, girls could act like boys and boys could acts like girls. But what happened? It is still okay for girls to act like boys. I feel like it is even expected to some extent in tech and science. But boys sampling girl-gendered* things? I know that some emo musicians wear nail polish sometimes, but that seems less progressive than what these mainstream musicians were doing 30 - 40 years ago.
* No, I'm pretty sure that girl-gendered isn't a word either. Deal with it. I also wish that there was a way to describe gender that was not onset-of-puberty specific. Girl and woman vs female.
I disagree with you on both. The little girl is not dressed femininely at all. I think in her interview she even says she is wearing her brother's shoes. If femininity was accepted/respected/found to be a great thing, would she really be dressed that way?
Also, those "skirts" the men are wearing are more like kilts- which are considered masculine.
Also, a "man dress" is not progressive. Saying that a man can wear a woman's dress would be. The minute he removes himself from the idea of being "like a woman" is the minute he shows his bias.
Post by ringstrue on Sept 13, 2015 11:09:03 GMT -5
We have to not fall into the trap of striving for "gender neutrality" - save for certain aspects of our lives. It's too similar to saying you are "color blind" in regards to race. Femininity is great. Masculinity is great. But there is a bias towards the masculine, so if we want to be progressive, we must recognize our subconscious behaviors and consciously override them to include the feminine where we might not otherwise.
Does this bother you? I accidentally made a mom-enemy when I complimented a beautiful child with long blond curls by saying "your daughter looks just like you!" She said "thanks, but he's a boy." She's been mean to me ever since. I'm like WTF? I was giving a compliment! If you let your three year old boy have beautiful shoulder-length curls and dress him in gender-neutral clothes, you CANNOT be offended if I think he's a girl. Plus, I was giving *her* a compliment! #sorrynotsorry.
This is why I try to stick to gender neutral terms, at least until the parent drops a name or pronoun.
"Your little one looks just like you!"
I think part of the point of the article is that we shouldn't be able to assume that a kid with long curls in neutral clothes is a girl.
Pshh. I worked with young children and had almost the exact same thing happen to me. The kid's name was something gender neutral and hipster like "Scout," or "Brax" or something.
Does this bother you? I accidentally made a mom-enemy when I complimented a beautiful child with long blond curls by saying "your daughter looks just like you!" She said "thanks, but he's a boy." She's been mean to me ever since. I'm like WTF? I was giving a compliment! If you let your three year old boy have beautiful shoulder-length curls and dress him in gender-neutral clothes, you CANNOT be offended if I think he's a girl. Plus, I was giving *her* a compliment! #sorrynotsorry.
This is why I try to stick to gender neutral terms, at least until the parent drops a name or pronoun.
"Your little one looks just like you!"
I think part of the point of the article is that we shouldn't be able to assume that a kid with long curls in neutral clothes is a girl.
Look at baby clothing - even back in the 80s, baby clothing was mostly gender neutral, at least for newborns because duh, you didn't know what you were having ahead of time. Plus it was practical, because then you could reuse that clothing for subsequent babies regardless of whether they were boys or girls.
But oh, wait a minute, if people are reusing baby clothes, then they're not buying new ones! How can the clothing industry (and toy industry and baby gear industry...) make it so you have to buy more stuff for your new baby, especially now that people are having fewer babies?
I truly believe that the root of all of this isn't gender-stereotyping so much as it is encouraging consumption and spending and increasing profits.
Look at baby clothing - even back in the 80s, baby clothing was mostly gender neutral, at least for newborns because duh, you didn't know what you were having ahead of time. Plus it was practical, because then you could reuse that clothing for subsequent babies regardless of whether they were boys or girls.
But oh, wait a minute, if people are reusing baby clothes, then they're not buying new ones! How can the clothing industry (and toy industry and baby gear industry...) make it so you have to buy more stuff for your new baby, especially now that people are having fewer babies?
I truly believe that the root of all of this isn't gender-stereotyping so much as it is encouraging consumption and spending and increasing profits.
That's a good point. So many people now are focused on making a "boy" room or "girl" room. I still remember when I was newly pregnant with my daughter, and starting to build my registry, my MIL bought me a different bedding set than what I wanted because she felt the one I had picked was too "boyish". My reaction was, "It's Noah's Ark with bold colors! Really?"
There are so few gender-neutral clothes and I wouldn't be surprised if that was by design. Plus, the gender-neutral stuff kind of disappears after the early stages.
STORY TIME. I brought banana bread that my husband baked into work to share. One woman asked me how I got it to be so moist (twss) and I told her I had no idea, my husband made it. Her reply: "I've always said I didn't need a husband, but a wife."
I just stared at her then joked that I'm pretty sure he's a man, but I'll double check. Wtf. He's not my WIFE because he BAKES.
It might not be rational, but it really pisses me off when women belittle men like that since they get it enough from other men.
Just about every guy I've ever dated has been on the outside of what is often considered acceptable for men to look like, be interested in -- long hair, non-typical/sporty/preppy dress, not into sports, artistic/musical, health-conscious, etc. And some of them have had a really hard time with being judged by others because of it. Like a boyfriend of mine once brought in a salad to work for lunch, and you'd think instead, he'd brought in his balls on a plate with the way his male co-workers - and even some of his female co-workers - reacted to it.
Word. Someone once commented on H's order of soup and salad at a work lunch with a snide, "why do you always order the weirdest thing on the menu?" (which is not really an appropriate thing to say to your boss in the first place, but whatever). H's was, "I'm not going to force feed myself a steak at 11:30 in the morning just to make you happy". No one has said anything since and several other guys in the office now bring salads for lunch regularly as well.
It might not be rational, but it really pisses me off when women belittle men like that since they get it enough from other men.
Just about every guy I've ever dated has been on the outside of what is often considered acceptable for men to look like, be interested in -- long hair, non-typical/sporty/preppy dress, not into sports, artistic/musical, health-conscious, etc. And some of them have had a really hard time with being judged by others because of it. Like a boyfriend of mine once brought in a salad to work for lunch, and you'd think instead, he'd brought in his balls on a plate with the way his male co-workers - and even some of his female co-workers - reacted to it.
Word. Someone once commented on H's order of soup and salad at a work lunch with a snide, "why do you always order the weirdest thing on the menu?" (which is not really an appropriate thing to say to your boss in the first place, but whatever). H's was, "I'm not going to force feed myself a steak at 11:30 in the morning just to make you happy". No one has said anything since and several other guys in the office now bring salads for lunch regularly as well.
My husband orders salads all the time. I've noticed if I order a burger and he orders a salad, nine times out of ten, the busser will try to give me the salad and him the burger.
Look at baby clothing - even back in the 80s, baby clothing was mostly gender neutral, at least for newborns because duh, you didn't know what you were having ahead of time. Plus it was practical, because then you could reuse that clothing for subsequent babies regardless of whether they were boys or girls.
But oh, wait a minute, if people are reusing baby clothes, then they're not buying new ones! How can the clothing industry (and toy industry and baby gear industry...) make it so you have to buy more stuff for your new baby, especially now that people are having fewer babies?
I truly believe that the root of all of this isn't gender-stereotyping so much as it is encouraging consumption and spending and increasing profits.
That's a good point. So many people now are focused on making a "boy" room or "girl" room. I still remember when I was newly pregnant with my daughter, and starting to build my registry, my MIL bought me a different bedding set than what I wanted because she felt the one I had picked was too "boyish". My reaction was, "It's Noah's Ark with bold colors! Really?"
There are so few gender-neutral clothes and I wouldn't be surprised if that was by design. Plus, the gender-neutral stuff kind of disappears after the early stages.
Those asinine gender reveal parties are the logical extension of all this.
When this topic comes up, I always think of the photo of and quote attributed to Iggy Pop:
That's the crux - society finds womanhood, femininity, things that are "girly" to be shameful and weak. They're not. There is nothing weak or shameful or wrong about being female. There is nothing inherently wrong with doing "traditionally feminine" things (though, I have a hard to really parsing what those are since at some point men did them).
We talk about what a boy can do and what a girl can do in our family. The answer is that there is nothing a boy can do that a girl can't do and vice versa, save one thing. That is my daughter will likely be able to conceive and carry a child and my son won't. But that's just biology. There is nothing that is just for boys or just for girls. I received that message so much as a child and to an extent, so did my husband. I hope that we're really expressing that message to our children so they're confident and secure in their interests.