Both and probably a lot more. My grandmother committed suicide before I was born, and I've seen the lasting effects it's had on my family. On one hand, I truly believe she was very sick and saw this as her only option, and on the other I feel like my family has every right to feel hurt, angry and betrayed by her death. You feel however you want to feel about it, and it's okay if you never really know.
Post by open24hours on Oct 8, 2015 22:41:47 GMT -5
I don't think suicide is a selfish act. Mood disorders are diseases that cause people to believe irrational thoughts are truth. These thoughts can be so irrational that a mentally healthy person can have a difficult time understanding how it is even possible for someone to believe them. But, the ill person cannot see how it is possible for them not to be true. Mood disorders are manipulative liars. That being said, I think it is perfectly normal for those close to people who have committed suicide to have mixed emotions over it. Your feelings about it are normal and valid. You are allowed to feel whatever you need to feel.
I'm so sorry for what you and your son are going through.
I feel like often the person is so low that they can't see the forest for the trees. I guess it's one of those things we'll never know and you have to believe whatever you need to in order to find peace.
Post by JayhawkGirl on Oct 8, 2015 23:16:44 GMT -5
A good friend lost her mom to suicide. She has found a peaceful grace, and one of the things she said upon an early anniversary stuck with me. She said that for all the "clear" thinking it appeared she put into the decision, she knew the mom she knew and loved wouldn't have done this. And that she was so sick, that it took over and made he make decisions she wouldn't have normally made. She said "I know that wasn't my mom - it wasn't he woman I loved doing that."
As an outsider, I certainly leaned toward the selfish angle for a long time. But hearing my friend acknowledge that her mom was really kind of out of her mind when she did that changed my thinking.
It is a shitty situation all around. Continued wishes for sound sleep, fond memories and calm amidst this storm.
Post by lexxasaurus on Oct 8, 2015 23:19:18 GMT -5
I have attempted suicide. Like PP, I really, truly felt like people would be better without me. I felt like I was selfish to ask people to stay by my side while I was so emotional, so destructive, lashing out because I was so full of amger. To deal with me while I was getting better - when I didn't think I WOULD get better - is what seemed selfish to me.
I think anyone affected by suicide can be angry though, that side is also so hard - I've been affected by suicide but never a spouse. I won't even pretend to know what you feel, Karma, and others. I can't imagine not questioning things and being overwhelmed by all kinds of feelings. But.. at the end of the day, I know that if someone has lost their will to live, they were in a place where they could never, ever have understood how selfish their action was because their pain is all consuming.
I think I can't possibly understand the pain someone is in when they decide to take his or her own life.
That's how I feel. My brother killed himself. When I think about it, I think of how much he hurt. How hopeless he felt. He saw no light at the end of the tunnel, just more pain. I'm so sorry for your loss. It's so hard.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Oct 8, 2015 23:27:01 GMT -5
I think you can't apply rational and logical thought to someone who is at that point - they aren't thinking logically or rationally. I don't think it's a selfish act.
My father took his life when I was an infant. Even though I never knew a time when he was alive, I still dealt (and deal) with that loss and grief. I think I actually began to accept it when I allowed myself to be angry and see it as selfish. I wasn't spending my energy on making it ok and forgiving him, and it let me be pissed off and angry at all the things I missed with him.
These questions and feelings are normal. I'm just so sorry you have to go through it : (
My mother attempted when I was 15, (wouldn't have made it if she wasn't found in time) it was very hard for me to deal with and I felt that she was extremely selfish. As I got older I saw it in a different way, that maybe she thought she was benefitting us (I was the youngest of her four kids) in some way, like we were better off without her. I think that she was in a very dark place and didn't know how to cope. I don't think if it as her being selfish when I think about it now.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Oct 8, 2015 23:32:44 GMT -5
Oh - and I don't think that just because it's not selfish doesn't mean you don't get to be angry, hurt and betrayed. Those things aren't mutually exclusive at all in my head. It can be both, and very likely is.
Intellectually, I don't think it is a selfish act. I remember my BFF's note still so I "get" why he took his own life. My heart still doesn't understand and feels it was selfish. I am so sorry.
I don't truly think it's selfish, but I can understand why it would feel that way being on the other side. Sorry you're going through all of this Karma
I did 6 months of training to take calls on a suicide prevention helpline so I know it isn't uncommon, but it makes me sad that so many people here have been touched by suicide. It's heartbreaking. Hugs to you all. x
I still very clearly remember the epiphany feeling I got when my therapist called it a selfish act. Honestly I never internally articulated that thought but "selfish" rang true to me in that moment. I'm certain my mom came to that conclusion much earlier than me, but her experience of my dad's suicide was dramatically different than mine - he was very vengeful toward her but we were shielded from a lot of that.
Having had suicidal thoughts myself, I can see the other side, too. The thoughts are truly irrational and disordered. And looking back, it was quite clear that my father was truly ill and not "himself" at the end of his life. So although the label selfish rang true, I also know it to be a difficult choice wrought from desperation.
Suicide is a horrible thing to live through and I feel acutely hurt for you and J. It's OK to feel all kinds of ways and to have setbacks and reversals as you begin your healing journey. Thinking of you.
One of my very good friends committed suicide 2 years ago. He was suffering from chronic illness and profound depression.
I don't know the answer to your question. I know that I'm heartbroken and also a bit angry with my friend still. While I know he was ill and in pain - he hurt a lot of people with his suicide and that hole will never go away and we will never fully understand why - and that f*cking sucks.
Anyway - it's ok to feel angry or confused or question things. It doesn't mean anything negative if you do...and it is pretty normal and healthy to feel SO many different emotions around losing someone to suicide.
I'm so sorry. I can't imagine what you are going through.
In the week after my friend B committed suicide, I vacillated wildly between feeling like she must have felt so alone and desperate in that last moment to being angry at her for not reaching out. I think both feelings are valid and I definitely landed more towards the not angry side as time went on. I still have moments where I think "God damnit, B"
My mom said something to me that week that brought me some peace. "B was not B when she did this. Her illness took over and she was not herself when she made this decision"
I'm so sorry karma. I know it's not the same losing a friend vs a spouse but please PM me if you need to talk. These emotions are still pretty fresh for me and I would be glad to talk to you.
My friend's daughter killed herself, in their home, while her parents were at work. It was devastating.
Her mother, my friend, works closely with families of suicide groups and is an inspiration. She believes, in her heart, that her daughter died of a mental illness. And I agree.
A teacher at my school lost her husband to suicide last year. They had only been married 5 months but had been together for over a decade. He had suffered from mental illness the entire length of their relationship. Two things struck me as I spoke to her. One, she often said he had 'succumbed to mental illness', she truly believed it was the cause of his death. And two, she spoke, at times, as if she had known it was inevitable. She had spent all those years trying to help him, to get him help (which he had received to varying degrees of success) and yet she said, every day, she knew it was a possibility, she just hadn't thought that day would be the day, if that makes sense.
My uncle took his own life when I was 12. I have thought a lot about whether it was selfish or not. Mostly I just think it was an act of desperation.
I honest to god that people would be better off without me.
I'm sorry Karma.
Me too, but 16. I've not admitted that for a long time. Sorry puddle
Karma, it's so difficult to process something so unimaginable to us. I read something suicide doesn't take away the pain, it only passes it on to others. This is true. However. (I know two people who've recently committed suicide). Both I knew had families/kids they were crazy in love with, they had very good well respected jobs, they seemed to really have it al. So knowing that just those two people could be in SO MUCH PAIN they would leave behind the ones they did, it makes me hurt so so much for them. Of course there are moments that I think omg how how how could they do that to (insert whomever I think is *most* hurt by it)?! But then I realize it truly is sometimes beyond they're control. They really think they are doing everyone a favor and taking away the *problem*. I hope so very much that one day you can find some semblance of peace. It is not, in my opinion, a selfish act. Opposite really. The rest of us not suffering so much can't understand it (luckily), but really in their mind they are saving their loved ones from whatever tbeyre battling. ((Hugs)) forever karma for you and J. I've been thinking of you daily.
Intellectually I'm sure that it is not in that moment. But I would feel all of those feelings of doubt and anger even with that intellectual knowledge.
I also think that the illness that drives someone to suicide may make them act very selfishly in other ways beforehand since so many illnesses are self focused and isolating. In the aftermath, I'm sure it would be very hard to separate how I felt about that treatment from how I felt about the act of suicide itself.
This is basically where I am. My brother is dealing with significant depression and anxiety. He went from a Type A workaholic personality to now being barely able to function at times. He does act very selfishly a lot of the time, and it is extremely frustrating to those of us who love him. He has made comments that he "is worth more dead than alive" but also says he will never follow through on that. It is hard to know which things are being said by him and which are being said by his illness. That being said, I agree with cville that it would be hard to separate.
I think it appears selfish to a person's loved ones because they are the ones left who have to pick up the pieces and carry on with life. I do not think that the person's intent is necessarily selfish.
For what it's worth, I do think it's normal to feel confused about it and have mixed, changing emotions and reactions to it.
((((Karma)))))
All of this. I truly believe those who commit suicide feel the world/significant other is 'better off without them' or they just want the pain to stop. They are sick and can't think ahead to the consequences of their actions.
That doesn't mean your feelings either way aren't valid .
I think something has happened in the mind of someone that commits suicide that even they can no longer control. It may not be depression, anger, to prove a point, etc. I feel like something just, for lack of a better term, takes them over and they cannot make sound decisions.
I blame them, but at the same time, I don't bc I feel it's out of their control.
Post by ninjabridemom on Oct 9, 2015 6:43:43 GMT -5
Well...i agree w lhc. Considering my uncle put up signs everywhere "helium do not enter" it was clear he was thinking of his family during the act. It was all very well thought out so i don't think all suicide fits desperation in the moment actually. It is a desperate act for relief i think though.
I think it is a hard thing and an inherently unexplainable thing. I know "why" he did it and still have tons of questions that will never be answered.
I think I can't possibly understand the pain someone is in when they decide to take his or her own life.
So much this. Those of you who have attempted, thank you for sharing your story. I'm sure many people who commit suicide think they are doing people a favor because they think they are a burden or their life doesn't matter. Even though that's certainly not the case, they are just not thinking clearly or rationally.
I've suffered from depression for years and have attempted suicide, which resulted in me being hospitalized for bit. I had been at the point where I truly felt like everyone I loved would be better off without me and that I was doing the world a favor by ending my life. I was hurting so badly inside and didn't see a way out.
Because of my personal experience, I honestly feel that most people who end their own lives (not the people who kill others and then themselves), are in the same thought I was in that they feel like they are doing what is best for their loved ones. They obviously have some a mental illness and aren't thinking rationally, but are so overwhelmed with the feeling of hopelessness and want that to end.
I'm so very sorry, Karma. When I attempted suicide at 19 I truly thought that everyone I knew and the world in general would be a better place without me in it. I felt like a burden. I also felt like I had no power over my life, and that ending it when and how I chose was the only thing I could really be in control of. I know every situation is different, but I believe that in most cases suicide is not a selfish act; the person is in so much pain they see it as mercy for their loved ones and him/herself.
I just wanted to add to my earlier post that I do think it's absolutely normal to be angry and feel like their decision (your husband's decision) was selfish. It's OK for you to feel EVERYTHING you feel right now. I don't really want to bring up my own personal "stuff", but the kind of pain that drives someone to end their life is the most hopeless and devastating thing you could ever imagine. Those that are left behind feel all that same emotion too, just in different ways. I am so sorry you've had to go through this and that J is going through his own cycle of grief as well. You two will get through this together.