Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
I feel the same way.
Kinda on the same subject, but do white fathers of girls do the daddy-daughter dates? Take your little girl out all dressed up, go somewhere nice (a "nice" restaurant or something) and the dad show her how a man should treat her (opening the door, paying for the meal, etc)? I know a few black fathers who do this.
They make their daughters bring their allowance and split the tab lol.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
This sort of relates to what I said earlier. Parents who are teaching their sons not to be "gentlemen" need to realize that there is a large segment of the female population, of every color, that will be turned off by the behavior. I am teaching my daughters not to even give a second thought to a man who has so little respect for her that he can't even hold the door open for her or open her car door. He isn't good enough for her. Perhaps men being raised this way are fine with that and don't want a woman that wants to be treated that way, but I think deep down men want a lady and some of these boys aren't even going to realize why all the "ladies" think less of him - and it won't be their fault because their moms have taught them women don't really want that.
As far as racism goes, I can totally understand feeling disrespected. I don't know how to fix that when, as this thread proves, the majority of white women aren't teaching their sons to treat women differently.
I think this is a dangerous assumption. My H would probably be the first to tell you he did not want a "lady" for a wife, he wanted a lot of things, but lady would be no where in that description. I'm firmly in the camp of having manners is a good thing, hold the door open, offer your seat etc. But don't do it because I happen to have a vagina, do it because I'm a human being worthy of your kindness and respect.
I absolutely did think about the intersectional feminism when this while reading this, but I ended up deleting what I wrote about it, because I didn't like how it read. It ended up feeling like I was about to sprain my wrist from patting myself on the back for being oh so aware. Anyway the summation was just a quick thank you to those who posted in the intersectional feminism thread because it did make me think about this article from a different perspective. I still don't want to be placed on a pedestal because I have a uterus, but I do understand that feeling is not shared by all women, and that it is nice to feel valued, and that feeling of value comes from different ways.
This has been a very interesting thread. I'm just going to say here that I enjoy reading the black man/woman persepctive on a lot of the various topics that come up here because it's not something I've ever considered before and your explanations make a lot of sense. So thank you for continuing to educate me
I wanted to add my 2 cents about holding open doors. I don't much remember before kids whether people opened doors for me and let me through first. Usually politeness dictates that whoever, man or woman, gets there first goes through but holds the door for a couple seconds for the person behind them.
But since getting pregnant and having kids I encounter a lot more people, mostly men, that hurry to get to the door ahead of me and let me through, carry my bags, or take my shopping cart back to the stall. I really appreciate that and have found it interesting that women don't seem to have that same impulse. I'm assuming because boys have been taught from a young age to be gentlemen and girls expect the doors opened for them? And a pregnant woman or mom really activates that reflex. I've been trying to be more aware of helping out other parents when I'm out and about by myself these days.
Post by cattledogkisses on Oct 14, 2015 7:43:19 GMT -5
The expectation that women and girls be "ladies" or "ladylike" especially when that comes from men raises my hackles, because that expectation typically encompasses a whole spate of sexism.
Women who aren't sweet, quiet, submissive, and modest seem to end up being labelled "unladylike."
This has been a very interesting thread. I'm just going to say here that I enjoy reading the black man/woman persepctive on a lot of the various topics that come up here because it's not something I've ever considered before and your explanations make a lot of sense. So thank you for continuing to educate me
I wanted to add my 2 cents about holding open doors. I don't much remember before kids whether people opened doors for me and let me through first. Usually politeness dictates that whoever, man or woman, gets there first goes through but holds the door for a couple seconds for the person behind them.
But since getting pregnant and having kids I encounter a lot more people, mostly men, that hurry to get to the door ahead of me and let me through, carry my bags, or take my shopping cart back to the stall. I really appreciate that and have found it interesting that women don't seem to have that same impulse. I'm assuming because boys have been taught from a young age to be gentlemen and girls expect the doors opened for them? And a pregnant woman or mom really activates that reflex. I've been trying to be more aware of helping out other parents when I'm out and about by myself these days.
It's interesting that you say this because I had the opposite experience when I was pregnant both times. It was women who would give me their seat, hold doors, etc while men, especially young men, just ignored me. I even had a young woman shame her young male companion after she gave me her seat and he didn't.
The expectation that women and girls be "ladies" or "ladylike" especially when that comes from men raises my hackles, because that expectation typically encompasses a whole spate of sexism.
Women who aren't sweet, quiet, submissive, and modest seem to end up being labelled "unladylike."
This brings up something I was thinking about last night. The intersectional feminism thread really had me thinking last night about how culture is going to play a role in the idea of gentlemen/ladies. I live in a subculture (religious fundamentalism) where the "world" tends to view "our" men very negatively. Men in fundamentalist families are portrayed as sexist, backwards pigs. Perhaps the need to stress being a gentleman in my circles is to try to help with that perception.
Women with my beliefs take the command to submit to their husbands very seriously, but we take the command for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church just as seriously. Women expect men to treat them like queens, because that is holding up their end of the bargain. If a man expects his wife to submit, but isn't a gentleman, he is nothing more than a master to be served.
Anyways, I just think religion plays a role in this as much as race. I gladly submit to my husband, but darn it, he better treat me like a queen. He better recognize how special and amazing it is to be blessed with a lady like me and bend over backwards to make me feel like one.
Something else I'd like to note is when a man doesn't hold a door for me or whatever, I think less of him. When a white man doesn't do it, I think all kinds of fucked up stuff about him but through a racial lens, which may not be fair since several women here don't want that and he may have women in his life who have talked to him about doing those things and how they feel infantalized (i am operating on one hour of sleep since this time last night so make that be the right word when you read it) when he does them, so he may think he is doing the feminist thing. I don't know what the fix is here.
This sort of relates to what I said earlier. Parents who are teaching their sons not to be "gentlemen" need to realize that there is a large segment of the female population, of every color, that will be turned off by the behavior. I am teaching my daughters not to even give a second thought to a man who has so little respect for her that he can't even hold the door open for her or open her car door. He isn't good enough for her. Perhaps men being raised this way are fine with that and don't want a woman that wants to be treated that way, but I think deep down men want a lady and some of these boys aren't even going to realize why all the "ladies" think less of him - and it won't be their fault because their moms have taught them women don't really want that.
As far as racism goes, I can totally understand feeling disrespected. I don't know how to fix that when, as this thread proves, the majority of white women aren't teaching their sons to treat women differently.
I think one of the key take aways from this thread is the there is no universal "deep down". Maybe someone men want a "lady" but some men want a partner who is as strong and fierce as they are or something else entirely.
I don't teach my son to be "gentlemanly" which you take to mean he won't hold doors. That is incorrect. He just won't hold doors based on gender. If he's out with a women and he's first then yes I expect him to hold the door. If he's out with male friends then I ALSO expect him to hold the door open.
Indeed. I don't remember you participating in the intersectional feminism thread and you say you support the woman's position in the OP, so feel free to share your thoughts on the conversation and various views shared here.
Well I only skimmed this thread but I really like what sfy said that teaching gendered mannerisms to youngsters in a school setting (i.e bathroom breaks, active shooter drills, etc)is not the same as having gendered manners in a romantic relationship; I can't remember the full quote but it was a good point. And I still agree with the OP that letting all girls go potty first in preschool simply because they are girls is not a great lesson to pass on to boys or girls.
The expectation that women and girls be "ladies" or "ladylike" especially when that comes from men raises my hackles, because that expectation typically encompasses a whole spate of sexism.
Women who aren't sweet, quiet, submissive, and modest seem to end up being labelled "unladylike."
This brings up something I was thinking about last night. The intersectional feminism thread really had me thinking last night about how culture is going to play a role in the idea of gentlemen/ladies. I live in a subculture (religious fundamentalism) where the "world" tends to view "our" men very negatively. Men in fundamentalist families are portrayed as sexist, backwards pigs. Perhaps the need to stress being a gentleman in my circles is to try to help with that perception.
Women with my beliefs take the command to submit to their husbands very seriously, but we take the command for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church just as seriously. Women expect men to treat them like queens, because that is holding up their end of the bargain. If a man expects his wife to submit, but isn't a gentleman, he is nothing more than a master to be served.
Anyways, I just think religion plays a role in this as much as race. I gladly submit to my husband, but darn it, he better treat me like a queen. He better recognize how special and amazing it is to be blessed with a lady like me and bend over backwards to make me feel like one.
This dredges up so many feelings I can't even begin to write about them all. I don't care how nice the cage is, a gilded cage is still a cage. Teaching women that we should let the men folk make decisions, and though we can weigh in on them, they have final say just feels wrong to me. Yes it relieves you of the burden of making the wrong choice, but it also removes you from the power of being able to make that choice. And while someone who is acting in true good faith may never take advantage of a woman who's willing to submit, not all men are going to act as their highest selves. Time and time again we've seen that men and women do things that are selfish, cruel, or simply stupid. These lessons have a greater societal impact, and by teaching women that they need to submit, to let the men folk act, you place doubt in their minds, doubts in their intelligence, their intuition, their capabilities. The girl who won't speak up because her father is hitting her, the wife who watches while her husband gambles away their rent payment. Real submission leaves no room for second guessing, for wanting to look out for your own needs.
You could argue that "serving your husband" would leave room for those things. Because when your husband does something wrong you could then question the decision, or even disobey in order to safeguard him and your family against a bad decision. Your concern for his welfare as well as your own would still be in service to him, even if you did not follow an order. But those actions have no place in true submission. In submission, even if you're husband decides to treat you with scorn and derision, hurt and abuse, you are there to take it, to submit to it.
Can we not do the "attack submissive wives" thing? We have submissive wives on this board who are strong, thinking, accomplished women, in respectful relationships. Listing all the ways you imagine it going wrong doesn't change that, or make it indicative of all submissi e relationships, any more so than examining the marriages of our feminist posters and painting it as a broad picture of the relationships of feminists.
This brings up something I was thinking about last night. The intersectional feminism thread really had me thinking last night about how culture is going to play a role in the idea of gentlemen/ladies. I live in a subculture (religious fundamentalism) where the "world" tends to view "our" men very negatively. Men in fundamentalist families are portrayed as sexist, backwards pigs. Perhaps the need to stress being a gentleman in my circles is to try to help with that perception.
Women with my beliefs take the command to submit to their husbands very seriously, but we take the command for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church just as seriously. Women expect men to treat them like queens, because that is holding up their end of the bargain. If a man expects his wife to submit, but isn't a gentleman, he is nothing more than a master to be served.
Anyways, I just think religion plays a role in this as much as race. I gladly submit to my husband, but darn it, he better treat me like a queen. He better recognize how special and amazing it is to be blessed with a lady like me and bend over backwards to make me feel like one.
This dredges up so many feelings I can't even begin to write about them all. I don't care how nice the cage is, a gilded cage is still a cage. Teaching women that we should let the men folk make decisions, and though we can weigh in on them, they have final say just feels wrong to me. Yes it relieves you of the burden of making the wrong choice, but it also removes you from the power of being able to make that choice. And while someone who is acting in true good faith may never take advantage of a woman who's willing to submit, not all men are going to act as their highest selves. Time and time again we've seen that men and women do things that are selfish, cruel, or simply stupid. These lessons have a greater societal impact, and by teaching women that they need to submit, to let the men folk act, you place doubt in their minds, doubts in their intelligence, their intuition, their capabilities. The girl who won't speak up because her father is hitting her, the wife who watches while her husband gambles away their rent payment. Real submission leaves no room for second guessing, for wanting to look out for your own needs.
You could argue that "serving your husband" would leave room for those things. Because when your husband does something wrong you could then question the decision, or even disobey in order to safeguard him and your family against a bad decision. Your concern for his welfare as well as your own would still be in service to him, even if you did not follow an order. But those actions have no place in true submission. In submission, even if you're husband decides to treat you with scorn and derision, hurt and abuse, you are there to take it, to submit to it.
This is why the command works both ways. I would never submit to a man who mistreats me. There are two commands - I submit and he loves me enough to respect my opinion and treat me well. It has to be a give and take or it doesn't work. If one party isn't holding up their end of the bargain, why would the other?
I resent the idea that I live in a gilded cage. I have freedom and my husband respects my input. He would never make a decision without considering (and then catering to, because he is smart) my needs and wants. There is so much freedom in that. I feel protected, valued, cherished - everything I could ever want. And I am blessed to feel that way because my man was raised to be a gentleman, who prizes me above all else, and I have the confidence in knowing that he would never ever do anything without putting my best interest first.
I get that some women don't need or want that, but don't pity or look down on the ones that do. We don't feel like we live in cages.
Post by rondonalddo on Oct 14, 2015 9:08:49 GMT -5
I don't comment much on this board, but can I add here that if you are a man who was taught to let women go through doors, enter/exit elevators first, that's fine and all-- but if that woman is indicating that she'd rather open and hold the door for you and that's obvious because she is already doing so, just go through the damn door! It's been super awkward when I've tried to hold the door for a man and he won't let me. Especially in a work setting, which are the only examples I can think of that I have directly experienced. (And to throw in some generational context, the insisters are usually middle-age or older).
Can we not do the "attack submissive wives" thing? We have submissive wives on this board who are strong, thinking, accomplished women, in respectful relationships. Listing all the ways you imagine it going wrong doesn't change that, or make it indicative of all submissi e relationships, any more so than examining the marriages of our feminist posters and painting it as a broad picture of the relationships of feminists.
You know, I actually think I am one? Is there a definition somewhere so I can check? LOL!!
You hear the submit to your husband message often in black circles. Black women are told to be submissive a lot. We are too angry, too bossy, too mouthy, too sassy and so on.
The default assumption is that we are angry, sassy and independent. Black woman don't need to fight to be seen as independent, we just are. Know what we aren't thought as? Feminine, gentle, worthy of protection, worthy of chilvary. Maybe that's why as a whole we don't mind people open doors and such. It's a nice change of pace.
My H absolutely wanted to marry a lady. What's the alternative? A hood rat. Im just going to stop now because I can't even find the words.
While I understand your perspective that differential gender treatment will be seen by women differently I don't think it is at all fair to say a lady and a hood rate are the only two viable female paradigms. That is a profound insult to many women who don't consider themselves "ladies". I consider myself a strong independent women NOT a hood rat.
This brings up something I was thinking about last night. The intersectional feminism thread really had me thinking last night about how culture is going to play a role in the idea of gentlemen/ladies. I live in a subculture (religious fundamentalism) where the "world" tends to view "our" men very negatively. Men in fundamentalist families are portrayed as sexist, backwards pigs. Perhaps the need to stress being a gentleman in my circles is to try to help with that perception.
Women with my beliefs take the command to submit to their husbands very seriously, but we take the command for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church just as seriously. Women expect men to treat them like queens, because that is holding up their end of the bargain. If a man expects his wife to submit, but isn't a gentleman, he is nothing more than a master to be served.
Anyways, I just think religion plays a role in this as much as race. I gladly submit to my husband, but darn it, he better treat me like a queen. He better recognize how special and amazing it is to be blessed with a lady like me and bend over backwards to make me feel like one.
You hear the submit to your husband message often in black circles. Black women are told to be submissive a lot. We are too angry, too bossy, too mouthy, too sassy and so on.
This all describes KateAggie and she is still a submissive wife. You can have it all!!!
If I had a daughter and she told me she was submissive to her husband, I'd just go ahead and hurl myself off the nearest bridge. Whatever works for anyone else, live your life, but I do not see that as a positive. Jmho.
The default assumption is that we are angry, sassy and independent. Black woman don't need to fight to be seen as independent, we just are. Know what we aren't thought as? Feminine, gentle, worthy of protection, worthy of chilvary. Maybe that's why as a whole we don't mind people open doors and such. It's a nice change of pace.
My H absolutely wanted to marry a lady. What's the alternative? A hood rat. Im just going to stop now because I can't even find the words.
While I understand your perspective that differential gender treatment will be seen by women differently I don't think it is at all fair to say a lady and a hood rate are the only two viable female paradigms. That is a profound insult to many women who don't consider themselves "ladies". I consider myself a strong independent women NOT a hood rat.
Since when can't a woman be a lady and also be strong and independent? You don't have to turn in your feminist card to act like a lady.
While I understand your perspective that differential gender treatment will be seen by women differently I don't think it is at all fair to say a lady and a hood rate are the only two viable female paradigms. That is a profound insult to many women who don't consider themselves "ladies". I consider myself a strong independent women NOT a hood rat.
Since when can't a woman be a lady and also be strong and independent? You don't have to turn in your feminist card to act like a lady.
What are the defining features of a lady? Any no I am not saying that someone who considers themselves a "lady" isn't also strong and independent but those don't seem to be key elements of whatever nebulous concept people are trying to get at with "lady".
I get that and I am teaching my children the same. I hold the door open for people, regardless of gender, too.
But I am also teaching my boys that there are different rules around women. For example, you don't speak to women the way you talk to your "bros". You don't burp or fart in the presence of ladies like you may when you're in a room full of men. There is a man and a woman who both look like they need your seat more than you do - you offer to the woman first. Why? Women ARE different than men. They are special. They are a future mother or wife to someone, or perhaps already are someone's mother or wife. Treat them like you would expect your sisters or mother to be treated. They are NOT the same as your male friends and deserve to be treated with a different kind of respect.
Sure, everyone deserves respect. What that means just looks different when dealing with men and women. There are different rules for what is and isn't acceptable.
Lots of great stuff in this thread. And I don't want to move the discussion too far away for intersectionality because I'm learning so much but...
I will say that I find the 'someone's mother, someone's wife' view problematic. Am I only worthy of respect (however you define it) when a (future) wife, mother, etc.? What if I never marry, never have children. I think some of the violence against women research has shown this type of viewpoint does not promote systemic change in respect for women. (At a conference so I can't pull up the source)
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
I get that and I am teaching my children the same. I hold the door open for people, regardless of gender, too.
But I am also teaching my boys that there are different rules around women. For example, you don't speak to women the way you talk to your "bros". You don't burp or fart in the presence of ladies like you may when you're in a room full of men. There is a man and a woman who both look like they need your seat more than you do - you offer to the woman first. Why? Women ARE different than men. They are special. They are a future mother or wife to someone, or perhaps already are someone's mother or wife. Treat them like you would expect your sisters or mother to be treated. They are NOT the same as your male friends and deserve to be treated with a different kind of respect.
Sure, everyone deserves respect. What that means just looks different when dealing with men and women. There are different rules for what is and isn't acceptable.
Lots of great stuff in this thread. And I don't want to move the discussion too far away for intersectionality because I'm learning so much but...
I will say that I find the 'someone's mother, someone's wife' view problematic. Am I only worthy of respect (however you define it) when a (future) wife, mother, etc.? What if I never marry, never have children. I think some of the violence against women research has shown this type of viewpoint does not promote systemic change in respect for women. (At a conference so I can't pull up the source)
I should have also added someone's daughter or sister. Basically, treat women outside of your family the same way you expect others to treat the ones inside your own family.
Looking at the world that way encourages men to respect women. Like it's hard to watch porn or go to a strip club when you're thinking about how those women are someone else's sister or future mother. It's hard to view women as nothing but sex objects and to treat sex casually because you wouldn't want your future wife being treated that way. Treat all women like ladies, regardless of whether or not they act like one.
I should have also added someone's daughter or sister. Basically, treat women outside of your family the same way you expect others to treat the ones inside your own family.
Looking at the world that way encourages men to respect women. Like it's hard to watch porn or go to a strip club when you're thinking about how those women are someone else's sister or future mother. It's hard to view women as nothing but sex objects and to treat sex casually because you wouldn't want your future wife being treated that way. Treat all women like ladies, regardless of whether or not they act like one.
this is a good read that should help you understand the flaws in this way of framing it.
There's no "flaw" in my thinking, thank you very much. I don't need feminists to tell me the appropriate way to think as a woman. I am a woman just like them. You teach your sons what you think is right and I'll teach mine.
This has been a very interesting thread. I'm just going to say here that I enjoy reading the black man/woman persepctive on a lot of the various topics that come up here because it's not something I've ever considered before and your explanations make a lot of sense. So thank you for continuing to educate me
I wanted to add my 2 cents about holding open doors. I don't much remember before kids whether people opened doors for me and let me through first. Usually politeness dictates that whoever, man or woman, gets there first goes through but holds the door for a couple seconds for the person behind them.
But since getting pregnant and having kids I encounter a lot more people, mostly men, that hurry to get to the door ahead of me and let me through, carry my bags, or take my shopping cart back to the stall. I really appreciate that and have found it interesting that women don't seem to have that same impulse. I'm assuming because boys have been taught from a young age to be gentlemen and girls expect the doors opened for them? And a pregnant woman or mom really activates that reflex. I've been trying to be more aware of helping out other parents when I'm out and about by myself these days.
It's interesting that you say this because I had the opposite experience when I was pregnant both times. It was women who would give me their seat, hold doors, etc while men, especially young men, just ignored me. I even had a young woman shame her young male companion after she gave me her seat and he didn't.
I find women are a lot more likely to come over and talk to my kids or me, entertain them in lines, etc. But not really do things to make life more convenient. I do agree on further thought though that it's usually a middle age+ man doing these gentlemanly things. Rare to get help from a young guy.
There's no "flaw" in my thinking, thank you very much. I don't need feminists to tell me the appropriate way to think as a woman. I am a woman just like them. You teach your sons what you think is right and I'll teach mine.
I guess since you can't yet figure out how to co-opt this way of viewing an issue, it isn't as valuable to you.
Please expand on this. I am dying to hear whose views in this thread you think I have co-opted. These are things I've been saying and being challenged on for years on this board.
But since getting pregnant and having kids I encounter a lot more people, mostly men, that hurry to get to the door ahead of me and let me through, carry my bags, or take my shopping cart back to the stall. I really appreciate that and have found it interesting that women don't seem to have that same impulse. I'm assuming because boys have been taught from a young age to be gentlemen and girls expect the doors opened for them? And a pregnant woman or mom really activates that reflex. I've been trying to be more aware of helping out other parents when I'm out and about by myself these days.
My experience has been the opposite. Other women who have "been there" so to speak will hurry to hold he door open for me while I try to maneuver the stroller and the kindergartener through. Men mostly just watch or don't see me.
I've found that now that I'm into my 40s I love the rare moments of chivalry that I receive. I couldn't care less about it 20 years ago. But now that I'm an overweight, middle aged woman, I feel invisible to men for the most part. That time in your life when you no longer get second looks because of your age, ya know? So I'm always grateful for small acts of kindness by men.
But I do agree that the overly chivalrous men I knew when I was single were kind of chauvinistic. So I don't know what the best answer is other than maybe a little bit of balance between the two.