See, this kind of thing is why I've morphed into a supporter for higher estate taxes. It seems like the only way to fight the kinds of generational advantages still around due to slavery and more recent racist practices.
Admittedly, I haven't thought much about the estate tax because lol at the idea of us getting an inheritance from either set of parents (we will probably be supporting my mom in old age and the ILs are Scrooge McDucks), but I'm not sure I agree with higher estate taxes. It seems like an overly simplistic solution but I'll have to think/read more about it. But the situation right now is just really unfair to a large segment of our population and I hope there is a viable solution (or combination of solutions).
Anyone who has any amount of money worth noting can get out of estate taxes. They do so precisely by doing things like paying for their children's college and house down payments.
This discussion is interesting to me. My BFF is Colombian and recently finished med school. She took out loans for the first year then her parents paid the bills with the understanding that they were sacrificing their retirement to do so but that she would take care of them when she was making a physician's salary. Obviously this isn't exactly what the OP was talking about because they have the kind of cash to pay for 3 years of private med school OOP, but I don't think any of my WASP friends would have come to the same agreement. Their parents would have just paid or not paid, end of story. There are definitely different cultural expectations coming into play for her.
Post by tacosforlife on Dec 1, 2015 8:59:33 GMT -5
Book recommendation, not specifically related to minorities not being able to get ahead but more about aging and mortality: Being Mortal by Atul Gwande. He is a physician who is the child of Indian immigrants. The book has some really interesting information about aging and death over time and across cultures, and he explores what produces better outcomes, both through the stories of patients and his own father. The "we don't put people in nursing homes" talk made me think about that because he explores what makes a good environment for seniors and what doesn't.
See, this kind of thing is why I've morphed into a supporter for higher estate taxes. It seems like the only way to fight the kinds of generational advantages still around due to slavery and more recent racist practices.
I wonder how much the estate tax actually helps with this though. It doesn't do anything for financial help like parents paying for college, down payments, etc. which give people a boost early on and allow them to in turn be better off financially. It's also a contributing reason to why my parents give us money now. Their goal is to transfer as much of their wealth as possible before they die to avoid the estate tax.
I don't think it will solve all the problems, but having that extra tax $ could be useful in so many programs to help reduce poverty and create more of an even playing field.
I am open to other ideas that would be more effective, though!
Book recommendation, not specifically related to minorities not being able to get ahead but more about aging and mortality: Being Mortal by Atul Gwande. He is a physician who is the child of Indian immigrants. The book has some really interesting information about aging and death over time and across cultures, and he explores what produces better outcomes, both through the stories of patients and his own father. The "we don't put people in nursing homes" talk made me think about that because he explores what makes a good environment for seniors and what doesn't.
I need jesus behind all of this and maybe i will feel differently next year or five years from now etc. but my older aunt and uncle have been the ones who have called me upset about missing my mama and who have stepped up to help me and my brother navigate her settling her estate
I don't blame you at all for being upset with these relatives. An aging or sick family member can really bring out the worst in people.
MIL and FIL sold their house and built a whole new house with the idea that FIL's aging mother would live with them. By the time construction was completed, they realized that she was in bad enough shape that she needed round-the-clock care. She was a danger to herself and couldn't be left alone. So FIL had to find her a nursing home. It hurt him so badly. He hated doing it. And he wound up hating the house he built because it was just a constant reminder that he couldn't take care of his mom. Well, his brother and his cousins got really nasty and said horrible things about him abandoning his mother. I guess they thought he or MIL should quit their jobs to care for her full time (with what money after they quit their jobs???). It's not like these people were offering to take shifts to care for FIL's mom or offering to pitch in money to hire a nurse or researching alternatives. It was so supremely shitty. This was going on right when I met H, over 11 years ago. FIL and his brother still see each other, but it's pretty clear the relationship never recovered.
So that's the long-winded way of saying that you have every right to be upset with your relatives. Your mama sounds like a wonderful person who didn't deserve to be taken advantage of. Hugs.
Book recommendation, not specifically related to minorities not being able to get ahead but more about aging and mortality: Being Mortal by Atul Gwande. He is a physician who is the child of Indian immigrants. The book has some really interesting information about aging and death over time and across cultures, and he explores what produces better outcomes, both through the stories of patients and his own father. The "we don't put people in nursing homes" talk made me think about that because he explores what makes a good environment for seniors and what doesn't.
After seeing a number of older relatives not be put into nursing homes, I'm not sure that keeping them out is all that it's cracked up to be. Most black people, especially older people, think you are Satan spawned if you would willingly put your own mother or father in a nursing home. I doubt most non-black people have any idea how shady most black people think they are for putting their relatives in nursing homes . Everyone is not capable, but of course, the guilt is real. Personally, I like the idea of having my own room, 3 meals a day and planned activities. Hell, I would move in tomorrow if I could. Sounds hot. I will take care of my mother as long as I am physically able, but I also recognize that there may come a time where her needs exceed my abilities and at that point, I am open to options. I have not told her this, but my mother would probably insist (although, she is very attached to "her room" in my current house, even though I keep telling her we won't be here when she moves in with us lol).
Increasing the estate tax doesn't do anything for me, personally. I don't see the value in it as it relates to this, for a number of reasons, the primary of which is that by the time most people inherit from parents (and in some cases, even grandparents), the gap is already so wide, it's not relevant. Plus, some people losing doesn't mean other people win.
I'm really sorry, 1234FIF!. I hate that your mother had to deal with that.
Book recommendation, not specifically related to minorities not being able to get ahead but more about aging and mortality: Being Mortal by Atul Gwande. He is a physician who is the child of Indian immigrants. The book has some really interesting information about aging and death over time and across cultures, and he explores what produces better outcomes, both through the stories of patients and his own father. The "we don't put people in nursing homes" talk made me think about that because he explores what makes a good environment for seniors and what doesn't.
After seeing a number of older relatives not be put into nursing homes, I'm not sure that keeping them out is all that it's cracked up to be. Most black people, especially older people, think you are Satan spawned if you would willingly put your own mother or father in a nursing home. I doubt most non-black people have any idea how shady most black people think they are for putting their relatives in nursing homes . Everyone is not capable, but of course, the guilt is real. Personally, I like the idea of having my own room, 3 meals a day and planned activities. Hell, I would move in tomorrow if I could. Sounds hot. I will take care of my mother as long as I am physically able, but I also recognize that there may come a time where her needs exceed my abilities and at that point, I am open to options. I have not told her this, but my mother would probably insist (although, she is very attached to "her room" in my current house, even though I keep telling her we won't be here when she moves in with us lol).
You should seriously read the book I mentioned upthread! Some - ok, probably most - nursing homes suck, as far as quality of life and residents' ability to maintain independence. But there have been some innovations in the field, and there are more and more options for older people who need support but don't just want to be stuck in a room in a nursing home.
Post by mrsukyankee on Dec 1, 2015 10:01:29 GMT -5
My mom moved to NM to take care of her mom. She was in her 70s and spending hours and hours of back breaking work that she shouldn't have done. Her other two sisters did contribute but she was the only one capable of doing as much (time wise or otherwise). No one would put her in a home. My mom has now written me two letters, signed by witnesses, stating she wants to be put in a home versus anyone in our family doing the same thing. She came to appreciate how hard it is to take care of someone with very little help. To actually wipe your own mother's bum when they poop, carrying them to the toilet and back, etc. She feels no one should have to do that/see that.
I'm not sure what will happen with my MIL, but I've talked to my H about it. We will be hiring help as I won't be able to do everything for her like that and he won't have the time to do so. But I know he'd like to keep her in the house as long as possible.
Post by tacosforlife on Dec 1, 2015 10:16:48 GMT -5
Hugs, 1234. And I don't think that's flameful. I was sad when my grandma died because I loved her, but I was also relieved. That's normal. Or at least that's what I tell myself.
Book recommendation, not specifically related to minorities not being able to get ahead but more about aging and mortality: Being Mortal by Atul Gwande. He is a physician who is the child of Indian immigrants. The book has some really interesting information about aging and death over time and across cultures, and he explores what produces better outcomes, both through the stories of patients and his own father. The "we don't put people in nursing homes" talk made me think about that because he explores what makes a good environment for seniors and what doesn't.
This sounds interesting! I'm trying to read more for pleasure that's not work related, but might just have to pick this up.
The hospital I'm at for intern year has a very high nursing home population. It's so depressing. Both my maternal grandma at 98 and my paternal grandfather at 88, although they do live with one of their kids, are both very independent with no health problems. So thankfully my family hasn't really had to take on the burden of long term care (my other 2 grandparents passed away within a shortish amount of time), so I always think about what it'll be like for my parents since I'm an only child.
Book recommendation, not specifically related to minorities not being able to get ahead but more about aging and mortality: Being Mortal by Atul Gwande. He is a physician who is the child of Indian immigrants. The book has some really interesting information about aging and death over time and across cultures, and he explores what produces better outcomes, both through the stories of patients and his own father. The "we don't put people in nursing homes" talk made me think about that because he explores what makes a good environment for seniors and what doesn't.
This sounds interesting! I'm trying to read more for pleasure that's not work related, but might just have to pick this up.
The hospital I'm at for intern year has a very high nursing home population. It's so depressing. Both my maternal grandma at 98 and my paternal grandfather at 88, although they do live with one of their kids, are both very independent with no health problems. So thankfully my family hasn't really had to take on the burden of long term care (my other 2 grandparents passed away within a shortish amount of time), so I always think about what it'll be like for my parents since I'm an only child.
It was a really interesting read. He uses a lot of stories from his practice and that of other clinicians, plus stories from his own family, as a touchstone for the data. So there is discussion of research studies that have evaluated outcomes, but there are also lots of personal stories, which helps grab your attention. It doesn't read like a textbook or anything.
Do you think this generation will have the same expectation of their own children? I guess the women on this board are pretty successful so may need less help as they age but help isn't only a financial thing. Do you have plans to lean/ not lean on your kids? Is the culture changing?
I do not expect this for my children. My plan is to buy some long-term care insurance so that my girls don't have to foot that burden.
We also have sizable insurance policies, so they will have the benefit of once we pass on to have some sort of inheritance. I'm hoping to give them a little bit of a leg up.
I'm my mom's only child, but I've already warned her that she's going into a home when it gets to the point that I can't care for her. She's been through taking care of her elderly parents, but they'd set themselves up nicely to be able to pay for all healthcare/funeral costs. My mom and her sisters have not. So all of the kids in my generation will be taking on the financial burdens of their parents as they get older.
I'm pretty sure that MIL will never want to move in with us and has the money to pay for her future healthcare expenses.
H and I are doing what we can to make sure we aren't a burden to our kids.
Do you think this generation will have the same expectation of their own children? I guess the women on this board are pretty successful so may need less help as they age but help isn't only a financial thing. Do you have plans to lean/ not lean on your kids? Is the culture changing?
I do not expect this for my children. My plan is to buy some long-term care insurance so that my girls don't have to foot that burden.
We also have sizable insurance policies, so they will have the benefit of once we pass on to have some sort of inheritance. I'm hoping to give them a little bit of a leg up.
Insurance is yet another way that black people have traditionally been put at a disadvantage. Predatory insurance practices are real. When I mentioned my friend, the divorced mother of three, one of the several bills she pays for her mother is the "insurance man." Now I can't vouch for this in 2015, I'll have to ask her, but I know that as of 20 years ago, this man still came to her mother's home every month to collect her premium. She had whole life policies --I can't remember the amount, but not more than $100K--on herself and her own three children (the other two do not help their mother financially, btw, so it all falls on my friend). My friend told her mother to cancel/cash in her policies because she is insured through work and has a sizable term policy on herself. Her mother refused, even though she could use the money. It's jacked up. So many people have paid far too much for policies that are crap. Oh, this also reminds me of my other friend with three children who refused to insure her husband for more than $500K, because she "wouldn't feel right profiting from his death." I had to plead with her to go to $500K, but she wouldn't go over that.
Post by eponinepontmercy on Dec 1, 2015 11:08:03 GMT -5
My mother has said that her retirement plan is to die, which is sad and funny and probably true. I found out while we were in Disney that they have no life insurance. (My dad lost his job in 2009 and they have gone through everything.)
I have no idea what we'll do if something happens, and given their current health, it's probably something we should talk about. Since my brother (33 on Thursday) shows no signs of being able to move out of their basement, a lot of stuff would fall to him. However, because he's a selfish jackass I'd probably still have to do a lot from 2 hours away with a child of my own. My sister is 22 and about to graduate college and I wouldn't want to burden her anytime soon.
DH's parents are financially solvent with lots of plans in place. FIL is very big on family helping family, but was upfront with his father about going to a home when they couldn't care for him properly.
re: the 80% post by TTT - most of the Black friends and colleagues I know have an elder family member living with them or depending on them for support. This seemed to me to be the norm so the 80% didn't stand out to me.
When my neighbors (and some times me too) get annoyed at too many cars at one house, I remember that multi-generational living was common in the early 1900s, and whether good or bad, I expect to see more of that happening as we get older and the economy becomes more challenging. Too many millenials will have too much debt so their parents will either be helping them, at the expense of their retirement savings, or having them move in to help care for them in old age while relieving the young'ins of some of their financial burden in exchange.
My someday step-sister is in this situation. Her family is impoverished and they moved in with her grandma-in-law to help care for her in exchange for free rent.
This trend disproportionately impacts non-white populations in our country because of generational wealth.
See, this kind of thing is why I've morphed into a supporter for higher estate taxes. It seems like the only way to fight the kinds of generational advantages still around due to slavery and more recent racist practices.
I honestly don't think this would change much since it would further incentivize people whose estates are large enough to trigger the estate tax to do more of what they are already doing--spend down their estates while alive to either get it under or closer to the threshold. The end result is the same in that the money is going to the same people without the taxes.
ETA: That is to say that upping the estate tax rate isn't going to keep people from getting a leg up. It will just incentivize people with enough cash to trigger it to do something like pay the college tuition of their grandkids while they are still alive instead of waiting until they die to will it to them.
Between this post and the post about WOC shouldering the financial burden for relatives in trouble with the law, I've learned a ton this week. Thank you for sharing your stories.
sfy - Yes. I don't care that it's a shitton of money that the girls get from us when we die. Other folks leave huge amounts to their kids; I don't know why we don't do the same. I trust that the girls will put the money to wise use (hell, I may even leave them a set of recommendations LOL). But my hope is that it will help them and my future grandkids.
I do worry about when my grandmother passes away. *smh* She has been very wise with her money. My aunts and mom are going to fight over her money. I told her a few years ago to PLEASE write out a will. I do not wish to be the referee between the foolishness that will happen after she dies.
The last time I spoke to her (I try to call once a month), she told me that she was very proud of me and glad that I and my H had done well for ourselves. Then she starts in on all the issues of my younger cousins and my aunts. Stay salty forever grandma. Never change. LOL
See, this kind of thing is why I've morphed into a supporter for higher estate taxes. It seems like the only way to fight the kinds of generational advantages still around due to slavery and more recent racist practices.
I honestly don't think this would change much since it would further incentivize people whose estates are large enough to trigger the estate tax to do more of what they are already doing--spend down their estates while alive to either get it under or closer to the threshold. The end result is the same in that the money is going to the same people without the taxes.
ETA: That is to say that upping the estate tax rate isn't going to keep people from getting a leg up. It will just incentivize people with enough cash to trigger it to do something like pay the college tuition of their grandkids while they are still alive instead of waiting until they die to will it to them.
I have made it clear that I am ok with being in a nursing home when the time comes. We will do our best to help our kids with their education but saving for retirement comes first. The way I look at it my gift to them to ensure that they only have to worry about themselves in adulthood.
After seeing a number of older relatives not be put into nursing homes, I'm not sure that keeping them out is all that it's cracked up to be. Most black people, especially older people, think you are Satan spawned if you would willingly put your own mother or father in a nursing home. I doubt most non-black people have any idea how shady most black people think they are for putting their relatives in nursing homes . Everyone is not capable, but of course, the guilt is real. Personally, I like the idea of having my own room, 3 meals a day and planned activities. Hell, I would move in tomorrow if I could. Sounds hot. I will take care of my mother as long as I am physically able, but I also recognize that there may come a time where her needs exceed my abilities and at that point, I am open to options. I have not told her this, but my mother would probably insist (although, she is very attached to "her room" in my current house, even though I keep telling her we won't be here when she moves in with us lol).
You should seriously read the book I mentioned upthread! Some - ok, probably most - nursing homes suck, as far as quality of life and residents' ability to maintain independence. But there have been some innovations in the field, and there are more and more options for older people who need support but don't just want to be stuck in a room in a nursing home.
My grandmother is in one of those awesome places. It is called life care. She basically "bought" an apartment. She pays a monthly fee which includes meals and weekly cleaning. She lives alone and is fairly independent. If she needs more care she can move to assisted or nursing care. It is fantastic place and my grandmother (who is 96) has an excellent quality of life given that she can't drive and uses a walker. There are plenty of social events, a gym specifically designed for older folks, a pool and doctor's offices on site. There is even a hair dresser. Friendships are hard and someone complicated but overall I think it is so much better than the idea that she'd live my uncle or my parents.
hocus, I am glad to hear your grandma is in a nice place! I wish that kind of option were available to everyone!
Yes I think options like this are really helpful given how folks live now (spread out over the county, having kids later, having prolonged post working lives etc). It is expensive of course but generally less expensive than a nursing home because more folks don't live in the nursing wing.
Dh and I don't experience the knuckleheads or random cousins asking for money but we are both the "responsible" children in our families so we've passed out a lot of cash to siblings and my mother. My mom, brother and me are in this fucked up triangle in which my mom goes broke keeping him afloat so I end up digging my mother out of emergencies. Oh, and my sil is her family's most stable person so she has had parents and siblings live with them eventhough they can't make it without my mom's help. I go between being pissed and sad at the whole situation. We also spent years bailing out DH's brother but that stopped when we started TTC. It's much easier to tell a single man pissing away his money that he's cut off than it is to tell my family because my bro has kids and my mom is my mom. I can't say no to her. As far as taking care of our parents, my mom will likely live with my brother but I will carry the financial burden. MIL will likely move in with us. FIL is remarried to a much younger woman so I'm hoping she'll be able to take care of him.
Generally speaking. I think the 80% is very accurate. All of my friends are planning to or already have started taking care of a parent. And most are contributing to siblings or nieces and nephews in some way.I don't see this changing in the next generations.
I didn't get a chance to read the full thread and need to get back to work, but wanted to say that this hits SO close to home. I absolutely think that 80% number is accurate. I make a very good living, and only have one child. But, I purchased my home (the second time I'd bought a house) just as the real estate market was crashing. I have zero wealth in the form of home equity or any other form for that matter. lol I send my daughter to an independent private school. My parents both grew up extremely poor in the Mississippi Delta, but my dad went to college and then into the military as an officer and has done really well for himself. Even still, my parents both give me side eye when I suggest they put aside money for college funds for their grand children. They definitely feel like I should be helping them, and I often think they resent the money I spend on private school and dance for my child. Even though they live in a 6000sq McMansion and don't need any money from me. I could go on and on.