When I listen to Serial, actively listen to it, I think there's no way he did this. And after I let it sit for a few days I'm back to thinking he did. I think that's my gut taking over. I think, ultimately, that Jay and Adnan got high as fuck that evening/night and it's why Jay can't piece together a coherent story. I think Adnan was so high he didn't think through the ramifications of calling Nisha. And I think Jay was more of an active participant than he lets on. I'm not 100% on Asia's alibi being ironclad or the track coach's either.
I don't agree with the methods used to get the conviction though. I want to be clear on that.
How Adnan talks about the case, specifically how little he can help himself, has always bothered me. It scratches at the back of my brain.
I wonder if Sarah Koenig is drawn to cases of young men who think they're smarter than everyone else to their own detriment.
A lot of what the attorney did actually makes sense if you look at it through the lens of her knowing her client was guilty. She didn't contact the alibi witness because she knew she had to be lying. She didn't hammer the timeline because she didn't want to draw so much attention to it or let it raise questions she couldn't answer. She didn't let him testify because she didn't want him misstepping. She spent so much time yelling and harping on irrelevant but tawdry details like Jays porn shop job because she wanted to confuse and distract the jury.
Not that this is necessarily The Answer but it makes her actions a lot clearer.
Right. I am not convinced she was "ineffective counsel." Her strategy just didn't work.
I'm trying really hard not to be a rabid pro-Adnan supporter right now... I see what you are saying and that makes sense. It is hard to tell the difference between ineffective counsel and a strategy that doesn't work, especially since she isn't here to defend herself. The number of murder cases that she had in taken in during that time, some of which were in Puerto Rico, is astounding. In fact, she wasn't in Maryland in the weeks leading up to Adnan's second trial because she was in court some where else. The visitor logs show that interns were doing all the case prep, not even other lawyers in her firm. It was the first time cell tower pings were being used in this way and she didn't even consult her own expert, even though she had asked for and gotten money for expert witnesses. These are the things that make it hard for me it dismiss her actions (or inaction) as an ineffective strategy rather than than ineffective counsel.
Right. I am not convinced she was "ineffective counsel." Her strategy just didn't work.
I'm trying really hard not to be a rabid pro-Adnan supporter right now... I see what you are saying and that makes sense. It is hard to tell the difference between ineffective counsel and a strategy that doesn't work, especially since she isn't here to defend herself. The number of murder cases that she had in taken in during that time, some of which were in Puerto Rico, is astounding. In fact, she wasn't in Maryland in the weeks leading up to Adnan's second trial because she was in court some where else. The visitor logs show that interns were doing all the case prep, not even other lawyers in her firm. It was the first time cell tower pings were being used in this way and she didn't even consult her own expert, even though she had asked for and gotten money for expert witnesses. These are the things that make it hard for me it dismiss her actions (or inaction) as an ineffective strategy rather than than ineffective counsel.
But do we know that but for those things, the outcome would have been different? Not that it could have been different, or that it even might have been different? Cause that's the burden for ineffective assistance of counsel.
ETA: at least that's what it is here. MD might be different.
Post by oscarnerdjulief on Dec 19, 2015 12:25:25 GMT -5
It's funny that so many people (maybe myself among them)were swayed by Serial into believing that Adnan's innocent when it was later shown that a lot of the info presented was false or not leading to the right conclusion. ex: cell pings, portrayal of Don
I want to know a lot more about Don. It seemed like Serial portrayed him as some hot and cool preppie like Zach Morris in "Saved By the Bell." Now I hear about how the time card may have been falsified, he's more of a withdrawn introverted figure, and only his employers, his relatives, vouched for him.
I still don't get why Adnan wasn't more of an advocate for himself and didn't go full throttle in his own defense, especially against Jay. I wonder if maybe he did SOMETHING, perhaps not murder but something, and feels like he should be punished for it. I tell you, there's something involving Adnan, Hae, Stephanie, and Jen. I wish I knew what it was.
My problem is that I go back and forth between thinking Adnan's guilty and not. But I am far from convinced that there was ineffective counsel, though the query about the money of course made me think that maybe she wanted an appeal so that she could get more money for her treatment.
I also think the pro-Adnan side got lucky that Christina died, and they'd have a harder time doing what they're doing to her if she were still alive.
How so? She had charges filed against her that are similar before she died. In fact, she was disbarred.
As the subsequent poster explained, Adnan's side can now talk about her being ineffective counsel, and she can't comment on it. She could blow up that whole claim with a few words--by saying that Asia was not credible, that she changed her comments to the prosecution, etc.
She can be painted very negatively without her own rebuttal.
This had a conclusion. Â It ended with Adnan in jail. Â It started with its conclusion. Â I dunno.
Dateline always ends with justice served. It knows where it is going. Woman gets thrown off a cruise ship. Husband denies it. Husband ends up in jail at the end. Everyone is happy.
This show though ended with maybe justice was served maybe not. Who knows? It was more of a meandering look at a criminal case.
It's not really the same. I wish it had been more like a Dateline episode instead of cracking open a closed case and then walking away.
Well, a conclusion of "so, yeah, despite all that, he totally did it" wouldn't really have us still talking about it a year later, would it? :-p
I also think the pro-Adnan side got lucky that Christina died, and they'd have a harder time doing what they're doing to her if she were still alive.
How so? She had charges filed against her that are similar before she died. In fact, she was disbarred.
In addition to what others have said, she was not disbarred over "similar" charges. She was disbared over supposedly misappropriating funds in her client's trust account. It pretty much has nothing to do with an effective counsel claim nor is it in any way related.
Lawyers must keep client's funds in a separate account. Messing with these funds before you're legally entitled to them is a big no-no. That being said, she didn't fight it. Had she fought it she very well might not have been disbarred. There is one guy who practices in the city where I went to law school who misappropriated funds from the client's trust to the tune of several million dollars. He just got suspended for a few years and is now once again a named partner at his firm.
How so? She had charges filed against her that are similar before she died. In fact, she was disbarred.
In addition to what others have said, she was not disbarred over "similar" charges. She was disbared over supposedly misappropriating funds in her client's trust account. It pretty much has nothing to do with an effective counsel claim nor is it in any way related.
Lawyers must keep client's funds in a separate account. Messing with these funds before you're legally entitled to them is a big no-no. That being said, she didn't fight it. Had she fought it she very well might not have been disbarred. There is one guy who practices in the city where I went to law school who misappropriated funds from the client's trust to the tune of several million dollars. He just got suspended for a few years and is now once again a named partner at his firm.
Isn't misappropriation like the #1 thing lawyers get disbarred for?
In addition to what others have said, she was not disbarred over "similar" charges. She was disbared over supposedly misappropriating funds in her client's trust account. Â It pretty much has nothing to do with an effective counsel claim nor is it in any way related.Â
Lawyers must keep client's funds in a separate account. Â Messing with these funds before you're legally entitled to them is a big no-no. Â That being said, she didn't fight it. Â Had she fought it she very well might not have been disbarred. Â There is one guy who practices in the city where I went to law school who misappropriated funds from the client's trust to the tune of several million dollars. Â He just got suspended for a few years and is now once again a named partner at his firm.Â
Isn't misappropriation like the #1 thing lawyers get disbarred for?
Lurker posting. But after listening to both serial and undisclosed, I think it was either Don- who was her current boyfriend, older than her dating a high school student, last person she was headed to see after school who has no alibi that can be verified by anyone who isn't related to him and is not backed up by any lens crafters time cards.... Or the same person who killed the other teenage girl and left her body in the same park and it's totally unrelated.
There is literally nothing tying adnan to this murder except jay and Jen. Jay and Jen were busted for drugs together. I think the cops thought adnan did it through some lazy and semi-racist assumptions about his Muslim beliefs and then coerced all this bullshit out of jay and Jen in exchange for dropping drug charges. The confession of jay makes zero sense and why did he get off Scott free of he buried her body (which wasn't even buried)? Unless it was all fed to him in exchange for something.
Adnan is a crappy interview and a crappy witness for himself and not very sympathetic as a guy, but no motive, no physical evidence, no nothing. He dated her before. That's it.
I vote don. And the police never even looked at Don past asking him if he worked that night and taking his word for it.
What is going to happen if the DNA evidence is tested and comes back as belonging to Adnan? Are we talking mass heart attacks across the country or just throws of people who will be screaming that the DNA was somehow tainted?
I have no opinion one way or the other. I am just trying to gauge how involved people are in this.
What is going to happen if the DNA evidence is tested and comes back as belonging to Adnan? Are we talking mass heart attacks across the country or just throws of people who will be screaming that the DNA was somehow tainted?
I have no opinion one way or the other. I am just trying to gauge how involved people are in this.
Then I would believe it. Like the poster just before you said, nothing ties him to it excerpt sketchy police work and two ( conflicting ) witnesses. The hairs found don't belong to him though, they've already been tested.
What is going to happen if the DNA evidence is tested and comes back as belonging to Adnan? Are we talking mass heart attacks across the country or just throws of people who will be screaming that the DNA was somehow tainted?
I have no opinion one way or the other. I am just trying to gauge how involved people are in this.
Honestly? I'll feel relieved. It won't change my feelings on the investigation (still appalled) but it will make me feel better to know for certain that ultimately, the right person is paying for murdering Hae.
What is going to happen if the DNA evidence is tested and comes back as belonging to Adnan? Are we talking mass heart attacks across the country or just throws of people who will be screaming that the DNA was somehow tainted?
I have no opinion one way or the other. I am just trying to gauge how involved people are in this.
If the DNA evidence proved more than her ex boyfriend had been in her car before then it could change my mind but as pp said, the hairs they found don't match Adnan. Police did not run any tests on the items found in the park near her body. Such terrible police work it's mind-boggling. But this is the same police department on trial for Freddie Gray.
What is going to happen if the DNA evidence is tested and comes back as belonging to Adnan? Are we talking mass heart attacks across the country or just throws of people who will be screaming that the DNA was somehow tainted?
I have no opinion one way or the other. I am just trying to gauge how involved people are in this.
What is going to happen if the DNA evidence is tested and comes back as belonging to Adnan? Are we talking mass heart attacks across the country or just throws of people who will be screaming that the DNA was somehow tainted?
I have no opinion one way or the other. I am just trying to gauge how involved people are in this.
You almost wonder why Adnan's lawyers put the brakes on that, huh?
I worked very close to Leakin Park and I never heard of it until Serial....oops.
I knew Gwynn falls but I could not have gotten to it without looking it up.
I have no clue how I feel about his guilt however.
Oddly enough, I spent two years, ~ 2-3 weekends a month staying at a boyfriend's apartment ~half a block from the park and and never knew it was that close or as anything but Gwynn Falls (but I *did* know the rep for body dumps and was even there when this case was in the news, just didn't ever realize that was Leakin Park just as Gwynn Falls). But he was a starving grad student living completely off of grants and we spent most of the time watching football on TV, Law and Order marathons, and playing Diablo II online--didn't get out much:)
I do think it odd Adnan claims he'd never heard of Leakin Park growing up in the area though.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Dec 20, 2015 13:45:34 GMT -5
I'm making DH listen to it on our upcoming Christmas car trip. He rolled his eyes when I suggested it but he knows I'm not going to allow him to play Christmas music so the alternative is silence. *evilgrin*
People. Living somewhere for 2 years is not the same as growing up there. Every.local.Baltimorean that I know laughs at that claim. That's why it bugs me. You live somewhere for two years? Meh. There are going to be lots of places you don't know.
You grew up in Woodlawn? Yes, you know Leakin Park. Full stop.
If you are including me in your "people", please reread my last sentence.
I'm surprised *I* was that close to it, drove on the edges of it often, and knew the body dump rep of it at the time, and *I* didn't have a clue it was *that* park and that *I* never made the link in my head. I absolutely think Adnan would/should/did know and I do think it's odd he lied about it.
I talked to my dad last night and he's only 2 episodes in (WTF, you're mostly retired, what else do you have going on, step it up). His thoughts thus far:
1. He is not a fan of Sarah Koenig's style and is having a hard time getting past it. I think this is a generational thing. He's used to newsmagazine shows with a narrative arc whereas Sarah is building the plane as she flies.
2. He is predisposed to think the Baltimore police are shady as fuck. I was somewhat surprised by this seeing as how he spent a good portion of his career in a LE capacity.
3. He said Adnan sounds like a man who is resigned to his fate. My dad has spoken with, and spent time with, so many people behind bars and this is the area where I'm most intrigued by what my dad thinks. He's not ready to say "he did it" or "he didn't do it" but he said Adnan is mentally doing the time regardless of his guilt or innocence. He said there are many inmates who spend 30 years locked away but serve no time. I find that interesting and depressing.
Post by picksthemusic on Dec 21, 2015 14:38:33 GMT -5
Here's my wild and crazy theory: Jay killed Hae because Adnan had a thing for Stephanie, and he pinned the murder on Adnan so he could have Stephanie all to himself (and to hurt him by killing Hae since it seemed that Adnan still cared for Hae).
Yes, I realize that sentence was structured poorly.
I keep wondering why Stephanie was never questioned.