Thank you so much for sharing this. It particularly loved the description of being at war with oneself. It's so true that,although I sometimes can convince myself I'm one of the enlightened ones--"look I post on CEP!"--it's too easy to ignore and take for granted the many ways I benefit from institutional racism.
Post by jeaniebueller on Dec 25, 2015 9:58:02 GMT -5
Thanks for posting. I have thought a lot over the last few days since the conversations here and on mmm started, about the racism of liberals and about my own assumptions. Anyway, I have been humbled and am going to do some reading from the list.
Thank you for posting this. I just kind of lurk here, but I wanted to say that I really appreciate the time and effort that the WOC posters put into this board. I am reading, learning, and challenging my own experiences.
This line, "your comfort is linked to our pain and suffering." Was the hard hitter for me. Comfort is part of the racism that people hold. like NitaX said, people think that the KKK is so bad, and they could never be like that, but your enjoyed comfort at the historical cost, and the present cost of our livelihood is part of racism. A huge part.
I had this conversation with a coworker who knew that the Mall of America would be slow 2 days ago because of the protest. She continued to tell me that she felt the highway protests that happened last month were the wrong way to go about it. I didn't call her out for trying to tell me how black people should do things for themselves. I did tell her that people can complain and hold animosity for having the freeway shut down for one day, but these people have the inconvenience of being black in America every day of their lives. So, I'm sorry if 4 hours on a highway is too much. She started to see it a bit after that, but still the struggle in her privilege of 'knowing that it's not the best approach' by her standards irks me still. Work in progress. I'm glad she was open to the conversation.
So living in greater MN we have a lot less diversity and a lot more racism. A couple FB acquaintances were complaining about the protesting on the freeway, 4 hours away. FFS. So I asked them "how would you like the protesting to occur?" And they couldn't come up with anything except stupid mutterings about doing it "better" but once again, when pressed they couldn't say anything. Promptly de friended.
Thanks for this article. It's interesting to read it framed this way.
This line, "your comfort is linked to our pain and suffering." Was the hard hitter for me. Comfort is part of the racism that people hold. like NitaX said, people think that the KKK is so bad, and they could never be like that, but your enjoyed comfort at the historical cost, and the present cost of our livelihood is part of racism. A huge part.
I had this conversation with a coworker who knew that the Mall of America would be slow 2 days ago because of the protest. She continued to tell me that she felt the highway protests that happened last month were the wrong way to go about it. I didn't call her out for trying to tell me how black people should do things for themselves. I did tell her that people can complain and hold animosity for having the freeway shut down for one day, but these people have the inconvenience of being black in America every day of their lives. So, I'm sorry if 4 hours on a highway is too much. She started to see it a bit after that, but still the struggle in her privilege of 'knowing that it's not the best approach' by her standards irks me still. Work in progress. I'm glad she was open to the conversation.
So living in greater MN we have a lot less diversity and a lot more racism. A couple FB acquaintances were complaining about the protesting on the freeway, 4 hours away. FFS. So I asked them "how would you like the protesting to occur?" And they couldn't come up with anything except stupid mutterings about doing it "better" but once again, when pressed they couldn't say anything. Promptly de friended.
Thanks for this article. It's interesting to read it framed this way.
I'm currently in greater MN. I fully expect to have a similar conversation at brunch.
My dad tried to stir some shit last night about the airport protest and I think he was disappointed when we didn't have anything negative to say.
ETA: its much more diverse here now than it was when I was growing up. My entire 4 years of high school, we had 1 black kid. She was a freshman when I was a senior. Aside from that, we had a couple of Chinese kids (siblings) and some Latino kid that was apparently a delinquent and living here in a group home for like a minute (he had a tear drop tattoo, so who knows). But that was it. Now, thus morning at my hotel pool, there were black kids playing with white kids. I was so happy I almost cried.
Thank you for posting this. It is a powerful piece. Out of curiosity I read some of the comments section. While I didn't see any blatant hateful remarks, there were so many respondents that had the predictable "don't lump all white people together", "I don't have a racist bone in my body", etc white hurt feelings reactions. Yancy specifically addressed those viewpoints in his letter and what struck me was that they weren't responding as though they disagreed with him about those points, but as though they had never read them and surely Yancy hadn't thought of all that. It was disheartening (although not surprising) to still see all the white fragility and defensiveness instead of people reading and processing his points. I shared this on Facebook and I'm interested to see if I get any comments.
I've said this before, but to me I think that response is typical because of the way we as a society have been taught to view racism. Racism = KKK in America's psyche. It doesn't resonate when you explain how racism is woven into society. Redlining, predatory lending, disparate treatment, education policies and discipline, mass incarceration.
When these things are discussed, people don't take notice until you drag out facts and figures to prove it. But, what if there were no facts and figures? I doubt that they'd be addressed at all.
I would be helpful if white folks didn't take it as a personal affront. It's not. It's an observation that there are still systemic issues that need attention. Just because I can buy a house next door to you doesn't mean that the details you don't know shouldn't trouble you. How far have we come if I can buy a house, but be charged a higher interest rate yet we have the same credit qualifications? There is still work to be done and it can't happen if everyone is I'm Not Racist when issues are discussed.
Thank you for posting this. It's such a good piece.
I agree that the defensive response is because of how we've been taught to view racism. People equate being called racist with being an awful person, which is sometimes the case, but not always. They key is breaking that defensive layer and keeping people engaged in the conversation. That is when the real stuff happens. I understand the reflexive feeling of defensiveness because I had it initially, too. Recognizing your privilege and the benefits you enjoy because of racism does not make you an awful person, it makes you more aware that your experiences are only yours. It helps you see outside your own bubble. It makes you more open to learning about others' experiences.
One of the things I learned here is that "color blind" isn't a good thing. It's also a bit of a ridiculous notion, to be honest.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
This line, "your comfort is linked to our pain and suffering." Was the hard hitter for me. Comfort is part of the racism that people hold. like NitaX said, people think that the KKK is so bad, and they could never be like that, but your enjoyed comfort at the historical cost, and the present cost of our livelihood is part of racism. A huge part.
I had this conversation with a coworker who knew that the Mall of America would be slow 2 days ago because of the protest. She continued to tell me that she felt the highway protests that happened last month were the wrong way to go about it. I didn't call her out for trying to tell me how black people should do things for themselves. I did tell her that people can complain and hold animosity for having the freeway shut down for one day, but these people have the inconvenience of being black in America every day of their lives. So, I'm sorry if 4 hours on a highway is too much. She started to see it a bit after that, but still the struggle in her privilege of 'knowing that it's not the best approach' by her standards irks me still. Work in progress. I'm glad she was open to the conversation.
This is where I've had the most inner trouble. When the first highway protest happened earlier this year, I wasn't thinking about racism. I was thinking about how I may not be able to get to my kids because of it. In looking back, there was a lot of irony in that line of thinking. But it makes a good point because like myself, a lot of people are thinking about how the protest affects them personally, without seeing it in the broader context. It will be a long time I think before a greater understanding is achieved with the public as a whole, but if nothing else at least I had a small moment of clarity with my own feelings on the matter.
I've read this in bits and pieces this time, but I've read it in it's entirety before. I keep typing responses and being called away.
It wasn't until college where I met my first and became friends with a black woman. We met in swim class and were assigned the same lane. She didn't know how to swim (at all), and while I could thrash around a bit, I wasn't a strong swimmer. We spent a lot of class just talking. At one point I asked her why she was learning how to swim as an adult, and she said, "Because I don't want to be a stereotype." It blew my mind (I'd never heard that one before), and I think I said something to that effect. She just gave me this, "you've got to be kidding me you naive little hick girl." LOL! Luckily she kept talking to me. (As an aside, she went from not being able to put her face in the water to swimming laps. We kept in touch for a while until she graduated and moved away.)
I keep trying to read, learn, interact and evolve. I realize there's a lot I know intellectually, but have never been pressed to put into real life. I know I'm still a naive little hick girl, but I'm trying. There's so much I don't know.
"After all, you are part of a system that allows you to walk into stores where you are not followed, where you get to go for a bank loan and your skin does not count against you, where you don’t need to engage in “the talk” that black people and people of color must tell their children when they are confronted by white police officers.
As you reap comfort from being white, we suffer for being black and people of color. But your comfort is linked to our pain and suffering. Just as my comfort in being male is linked to the suffering of women, which makes me sexist, so, too, you are racist. That is the gift that I want you to accept, to embrace. It is a form of knowledge that is taboo. Imagine the impact that the acceptance of this gift might have on you and the world. "
For a white person, this is the meat of the article for me. Liberal white people might be tempted to say, as the author points out, "I have many black friends. I'm married to a person of color. I don't see color. I don't have a racist bone in my body." But the truth is, we do live in a racist society and if we are white, we benefit from that. We take our white experience of the world and believe it is the "norm" when it's not. We have to learn to accept that. It is very painful. It is disturbing. It's a long process of really trying to listen to what other people with a different experience of the world have to say and continually reflecting. I believe it is true that accepting that fact is the first step towards building something better. I'm here and I'm listening. I want to do better. I wish we were further along this path than we are.
I have to say I really love that he leads off associating love with the painful experience of honest self-examination and vulnerability. He defines up front that we can't make any strides in this until we willingly offer ourselves up as being at fault and needing to change.
And that's one huge issue with white defensiveness: we're used to living a far easier experience, and when that comfort is challenged, an automatic response is to protect it instead of fighting for a POC to share the experience. And that response - the protective defensiveness - is hate, not love.
I have to say I really love that he leads off associating love with the painful experience of honest self-examination and vulnerability. He defines up front that we can't make any strides in this until we willingly offer ourselves up as being at fault and needing to change.
I love how it establishes his ethos and evokes pathos.
Good read. I love love love when writers allude to Baldwin. For me, that always adds an element of urgency and wisdom. It's one of the reasons Ta-Nehisi Coates resonates with me because of his identification with / influence from Baldwin
Thank you for posting this. I have been reading snippets, but finally took the time to read it all in one sitting. I have become more aware of my racism after living in the suburbs for nearly a decade. It continues to be eye opening and painful. Thank you to all of the WOC who share experiences here and educate us all.
One of my focuses going forward will be specifically around race. I need to do more to be personally aware and help address systemic racism however I can. I know I need to make this a priority, rather than sit on the sidelines and pretend I am not part of the problem.
Post by orriskitten on Dec 26, 2015 19:02:16 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing this. And thank you to all of you for sharing experiences, past and present. It helps to have even more perspectives and points of views to challenge my own comfort (the section of my comfort at the cost of others' suffering is heavy) and keep me thinking and analyzing my thoughts.
Post by penguingrrl on Dec 26, 2015 20:16:47 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing that. It was helpful in framing the discussion. I'll admit that I used to bristle and swear I wasn't racist, which is true when you only factor in the loaded term that comes from actively having racist thoughts or actions. But by not fighting the institutional racism rampant in this country, I am definitely complicit in racism.
So, as an individual person, how can I join the discussion and help end centuries-entrenched racism? I feel so powerless in changing it, but I would like to do my part to try.
So, as an individual person, how can I join the discussion and help end centuries-entrenched racism? I feel so powerless in changing it, but I would like to do my part to try.
So I'm white but I think it's going to come down to drawing lines and making honest yet awkward-inducing comments. Racist jokes? Glare, don't laugh, and speak up. See a white guy hold a door open for a white woman and not a black woman? Ask, "What's the problem here?" A minority CW is given the task to clean up or fetch stuff for a meeting of predominantly white folks? Pipe up and say you'll do it because they are important enough to participate. Share awareness links on Facebook, and stay firm when friends and family post ignorant responses. Call out racist posts, and tell that person why they're wrong.
Just some ideas. I have to give KateAggie props because she is excellent at drawing the line in her everyday.
Thank you for sharing that. It was helpful in framing the discussion. I'll admit that I used to bristle and swear I wasn't racist, which is true when you only factor in the loaded term that comes from actively having racist thoughts or actions. But by not fighting the institutional racism rampant in this country, I am definitely complicit in racism.
So, as an individual person, how can I join the discussion and help end centuries-entrenched racism? I feel so powerless in changing it, but I would like to do my part to try.
I've said this before, but you have to be an advocate. I'm not at the dinner table with Uncle Joe who starts telling all the things he learned on Fox News - you are.
You challenge the false narratives. I can't do that for you. My circles of people are good. It's your folks' that still need work. That's why people like Tim Wise are essential. He's a social justice advocate. That's all you need to do, be an advocate and speak up when you hear/witness discussions that are wrapped in discriminatory language.
Post by omgzombies on Dec 27, 2015 15:26:57 GMT -5
I loved this piece. Even simply as an example of persuasive writing, it is so elegantly crafted, and then when you add in the subject matter of systemic racism and sexism that he breaks down for his readers, it makes me love it all the more. I love this and want to share it with everyone. Thanks for posting.
Thank you for sharing that. It was helpful in framing the discussion. I'll admit that I used to bristle and swear I wasn't racist, which is true when you only factor in the loaded term that comes from actively having racist thoughts or actions. But by not fighting the institutional racism rampant in this country, I am definitely complicit in racism.
So, as an individual person, how can I join the discussion and help end centuries-entrenched racism? I feel so powerless in changing it, but I would like to do my part to try.
I've said this before, but you have to be an advocate. I'm not at the dinner table with Uncle Joe who starts telling all the things he learned on Fox News - you are.
You challenge the false narratives. I can't do that for you. My circles of people are good. It's your folks' that still need work. That's why people like Tim Wise are essential. He's a social justice advocate. That's all you need to do, be an advocate and speak up when you hear/witness discussions that are wrapped in discriminatory language.
Thank you. I will say that I'm fortunate in that I don't have many people in my circle who watch Fox News or make racist statements openly. My one aunt and her boyfriend do and I do correct her. One neighbor stopped talking to me this fall after I told her that a Halloween decoration she wanted to use was racist and offensive. We no longer talk (no loss), but she did not put up that decoration. I will absolutely make a point of being aware and speaking up.
I will say that discussions on this board gave me the courage to speak up to her this fall instead of silently judging her.
Post by iammalcolmx on Dec 27, 2015 16:59:25 GMT -5
It has taken me while to address the one part that makes me cry. We are indeed over sexualized. I used to feel ashamed, when grown men tried to get me to have sex with them, when I was all of 13 years old.
It has taken me while to address the one part that makes me cry. We are indeed over sexualized. I used to feel ashamed, when grown men tried to get me to have sex with them, when I was all of 13 years old.
I'm so sorry that happened to you, that's awful. </3
I remember being flirted with and followed around at fourteen by a grown man (carrying a baby on his back - extra ick) but he never went so far as to try to convince me to have sex with him. It was already an impressionable moment, and definitely impacted the way I viewed men; I can't imagine how much worse it would have felt if he had tried to take things further.
Post by bitsandpieces on Dec 28, 2015 1:12:18 GMT -5
I really liked his comparison to his own sexism. That resonated so much with me.
I really try to usey own experiences of sexism as a woman to help me to understand my own part in systematic racism. As a white, educated, heterosexual, middle class American, I have so many priveledges. I try to view those priveledges through the lens of my experiences with sexism so I can gain greater understanding.
This also makes so much sense for what everyone here has been saying about intersectional feminism. Both your experiences as women and as POC deny priveledge. I can't imagine anyone telling me that I have to wait for my rights, my safety, or my humanity to be important enough.
As someone said above, I can put down the topic of racism when I'm to tired or frustrated, which is an enormous priveledge. I will try to keep it up more often. I can't carry the burden for POC, but they shouldn't have to bear it alone.
Post by downtoearth on Dec 28, 2015 7:57:14 GMT -5
Good, but uncomfortable truth in his letter.
Makes me want to continue to be challenging my own internal biases and racism. Plus it sort of does make me feel a little lost in how to shape my boys' views. It's one of my concerns to raise privileged, unempathetic, unaware children who perpetuate DH and my ills, even unwittingly.
I've been re-reading and thinking all weekend. I've written and deleted a number of things here. I'm commiting to do better. To speak up. To make it awkward, because it OUGHT to be awkward for the people who say the racist things, not for the POC who have to deal with it. And I'm going to recommit to taking an even harder look at myself and my reactions and my biases. I'm here. This feels hard (the thought of calling out certain people....eeek), but dealing with racism first hand is a shitton harder, right? ok. *deep breath*
I've been re-reading and thinking all weekend. I've written and deleted a number of things here. I'm commiting to do better. To speak up. To make it awkward, because it OUGHT to be awkward for the people who say the racist things, not for the POC who have to deal with it. And I'm going to recommit to taking an even harder look at myself and my reactions and my biases. I'm here. This feels hard (the thought of calling out certain people....eeek), but dealing with racism first hand is a shitton harder, right? ok. *deep breath*
You said it so perfectly wawa that I'm cheaply ditto'ing. Exactly this. Down to the reading & re-reading all weekend (as has H, to whom I forwarded). I'm keeping it bookmarked/ open for sure, as I know I need to continue reading & re-reading & forwarding. Just a reminder of my privileged white ignorance.
Thank you for sharing that. It was helpful in framing the discussion. I'll admit that I used to bristle and swear I wasn't racist, which is true when you only factor in the loaded term that comes from actively having racist thoughts or actions. But by not fighting the institutional racism rampant in this country, I am definitely complicit in racism.
So, as an individual person, how can I join the discussion and help end centuries-entrenched racism? I feel so powerless in changing it, but I would like to do my part to try.
I've said this before, but you have to be an advocate. I'm not at the dinner table with Uncle Joe who starts telling all the things he learned on Fox News - you are.
You challenge the false narratives. I can't do that for you. My circles of people are good. It's your folks' that still need work. That's why people like Tim Wise are essential. He's a social justice advocate. That's all you need to do, be an advocate and speak up when you hear/witness discussions that are wrapped in discriminatory language.
I want to echo all the PPs who thanked the WOC on this board for everything you have taught (and continue to teach) us. This is an excellent point and I really try to be vocal about this when I can, but it's a good reminder that the ILs are coming to town this week and I tend to walk away from FIL's nonsense instead of confronting him because it's "easier" and less messy. But that's not okay. I need to be okay with being uncomfortable, if it means that I'm advocating.
Post by PatBenatar on Dec 28, 2015 11:12:51 GMT -5
Great read. My eyes have really been opened as of late and being defensive when confronted with truths about racism and privilege does nothing to make things better. White people just need to listen.
@nofucksgiven, thank you. But even this week I am failing. I'm at my parents, and tired of the same arguments. So on the news last night when they talked about the Chicago shooting, I held my breath and was thankful when there was no comment. When we watched Jeopardy and BLM was an answer, I was thankful there was no comment. My parents are both the very "good white people" he talks about. And this week, I've put my own comfort above the hard convos. It's a lot easier when it's not the people you love the most. And I know I have to work on that.