Inside the mind of an MRA

[heyjude]

This is an incrediably long often overly wordy article from a feminist man who spent months interviewing men's rights activists. Touches on race, class, and gender. Very fascinating.

www.vox.com/2015/2/5/7942623/mens-rights-movement

After reading this I'm pretty sure I have an MRA uncle.

[NewOrleans]

I'm actually scared to read this. I don't fuck with them the same way I wouldn't fuck with a sovereign citizen or a Klan member. ::shiver::

[heyjude]

Dec 30, 2015 10:26:01 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I'm actually scared to read this. I don't fuck with them the same way I wouldn't fuck with a sovereign citizen or a Klan member. ::shiver::

If you can get past the writer's meandering philosophizing (and gratuitous use of parentheses encased side thoughts), it's a worthwhile read.

[ijack]

I thought this was interesting
A survey taken last year of the Men's Rights subreddit found that 94 percent of their membership identified as "atheist" or "religiously indifferent."
I would have thought many more of them would have been super religious.

[jojoandleo]

Dec 30, 2015 10:52:01 GMT -5 ijack said:

I thought this was interesting
A survey taken last year of the Men's Rights subreddit found that 94 percent of their membership identified as "atheist" or "religiously indifferent."
I would have thought many more of them would have been super religious.

Being a part of several atheist groups, this does not surprise me.  I want a statistic of these people and those who support Sanders...

[wawa]

Dec 30, 2015 10:52:01 GMT -5 ijack said:

I thought this was interesting
A survey taken last year of the Men's Rights subreddit found that 94 percent of their membership identified as "atheist" or "religiously indifferent."
I would have thought many more of them would have been super religious.

this doesn't surprise me at all.  A couple of things here -
1. Reddit is not exactly where fundies hang out. 
2. Fundamentalist misogyny is much  more likely to be couched in protective terms.  Like, women need to be kept from certain activities for their own good.  They're weak and need to be sheltered.  Etc.   The MRA style of misogyny tends to take the tack that for women and men are already being treated equally and women bleating about feminism are actually trying to just beat down men so they can be superior.  They generally make the assumption that unequal outcomes are the result of women truly just not being as good at things.  They tend to love women who say shit like, "I'm not friends with many other women, too much drama!" 
3. MRA leanings are also really prevalent among the gamer/nerd crowd (which has a ton of Reddit overlap) and again, you don't get many fundies there.  Lots of lonely outcast types who talk about how their female friends put them in the friend zone that eventually get bitter and stupid enough to veer straight out into MRA territory.  The fundies don't tend to have that problem since so much of that culture is focused on marriage and relationships.

that's just based on my own experience.  Off to read the article...

eta: I am aware this makes a bunch of sweeping generalizations about a number of groups.  Of course they don't' apply to all members of said groups - I'm talking general trends.

[jojoandleo]

wawa-YES! These guys are worse than the fundamentalists. Partly because they believe they have researched and have PROOF and anyone who doesn't agree is dumb. I get that a lot in atheists groups, "You don't agree with me? You are dumb. I have researched everything ever in the history of research and you are wrong." Oh, okay then. Go fuck yourself.

[heyjude]

The article interviews 3 types of MRAs: average Joe MRA, activist MRA, and Pick Up Artist MRA.

[nomad100]

I haven't finished reading but I am already loving (insert eye roll here) that he wants to make sure that the writer gets how he differentiates himself from this group or that group within the MRA movement but he lumps all those he calls feminists together.

[downtoearth]

Whoa, the first line is scary.

"Some men have always been wretched. It only took the internet to make it obvious."

Is that really the case? I mean, do I want to read this?

ETA: I'm going to keep adding quotes from the article to this so I can discuss it here later

From "Max's" interview - 28 year old MRA guy in finance in RiNo in Chicago

He doesn't think much of feminism in general, or at least of what he says feminism became once the voting and the jobs and the abortion rights were sorted and the word became a dog whistle for "self-pity and sexism toward men."

"This is just, like, my neighborhood place," he tells me the first time we walk in the door. Not the kind of spot he'd "hit up" on a Friday, or where he'd look for what he insists on calling "action."

"These girls here are a little ... eh," he said. "Could be fun. Definitely annoying." (Distinguishing them from the similarly well-highlighted, halter-topped women he shows me on Facebook as examples of what he's "into" requires some capacity for discernment I do not possess.)

For Max, religion is something of a starter pack for a lifelong indoctrination into Big Lies. "I know it isn't realistic or anything, but I think if we got rid of religion, that whole kind of way of thinking about things, where you just subscribe to what you're told, where you believe these ridiculous statistics about women or in stuff like the wage gap." (Max has a very long explanation of the "wage gap myth," one that seems cobbled together from multiple readings of a few different blog posts.)

It's all terribly reasonable, until it isn't. This night corresponds with a particularly bad episode of police misconduct in Ferguson , and at some point we stop talking about the plight of men to watch a news live stream on my phone. Max's reaction is immediate: "This is crazy," he says a few times. "It's police brutality. I know people who say this isn't about race, but I don't get it. Like, this is obvious racism." A promising sign, but then, after a minute, "Man, feminists wish the cops treated them like this. Then they'd actually be oppressed." There's always another shoe with Max.

...Other headlines coincide with our time together. James Foley  is beheaded by ISIS; the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas breaks down. Max blames both on religious extremism and says he can't understand why "the good Muslims" don't denounce terrorism.So does he denounce the violent elements on any of his forums? He has tweeted unkind things to feminists. Does that encourage the ones who cross the line?

"What's the point?" Max asks. "I mean, it's only a couple guys, really. It's super fringe. They're not going to stop just because I say so." He fiddles with his burger. "You just have to develop a thick skin and try to ignore it. The feminists. Me. All of us. You know? Just ignore the crazy shit."

I ask about the harassment of feminists — of women in general, on the street, in their homes, by classmates and strangers. How much is he paying attention to, for that matter? He shrugs it off. "I don't really see any of that stuff," he says. "I mean, I'm sure it happens? But it's not, like, organized, anyway. Guys catcalling don't have meetings to plan it."

From Roosh - the Activist anti-woman career guy

"Are you telling me that a woman now is actually happier working for a boss in a corporate office who can fire her just because the quarterly report was bad, more so than serving her husband in a comfortable home?" he says. "I don't buy it. I just don't buy that women or anyone is amazingly happy because they can buy a new iPhone every year. If we define happiness by being a consumer zombie, then yes, maybe that's right. But anyone who has chased that knows there's no gold at the end of that rainbow."At one point in our conversation, Roosh pauses for a minute, then says this: "When you teach men to hate themselves without giving them a role model, without giving them a masculine idea of who to be ... how can we be surprised that men are just lost? They are completely lost right now, and no one is doing anything to solve this problem."

At one point in our conversation, Roosh pauses for a minute, then says this: "When you teach men to hate themselves without giving them a role model, without giving them a masculine idea of who to be ... how can we be surprised that men are just lost? They are completely lost right now, and no one is doing anything to solve this problem."

[wawa]

Dec 30, 2015 11:13:51 GMT -5 heyjude said:

The article interviews 3 types of MRAs: average Joe MRA, activist MRA, and Pick Up Artist MRA.

the third kind is one that I've been lucky never to encounter in the wild.  They make my skin crawl.  The first type encounter regularly (typically on my brother's facebook wall) and make me want to beat my head on my desk, but the pick up artists are just fucking GROSS.

[heyjude]

I had actually never heard of the PUA MRA until the Santa Barbara murders. I'm still not sure I get it.

[jojoandleo]

Dec 30, 2015 13:02:00 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I had actually never heard of the PUA MRA until the Santa Barbara murders. I'm still not sure I get it.

What is this?  It looks like the guy teaches men how to take advantage of women, but doesn't really like sleeping around, but thinks women created a society where that is all he can do?

I thought it was the guy who thinks you owe him something when he deems to hit on you.  The guy that will call you a bitch when you turn down sex.  But I guess that is just regular MRA?

[wawa]

Dec 30, 2015 13:02:00 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I had actually never heard of the PUA MRA until the Santa Barbara murders. I'm still not sure I get it.

Honestly, the shit on that scumbag's website reads like the work of a sociopath.  I question how many people out there truly subscribe to his way of thinking, because the thought that it's more than a handful gives me the fucking willies. 

The 5 lines no future wife should cross that was linked from the OP article is terrifying. 

[heyjude]

What's the difference between a PUA and just a dude looking for some lady loving on a Friday night? Is being a PUA a political statement? Or just about getting laid? I don't get it. Do you pay a PUA to teach you how to pick up chicks? There was a jezebel article after the santa barbara murders that explored PUA culture. I will try to find it.

[heyjude]

I guess Elliot Rodger was an anti PUA MRA. Lol. The subgenera of the MRA movement are mind boggling.

jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

[redheadbaker]

This is one subject where I *don't* want them coming to CEP to engage with us.

[heyjude]

Dec 30, 2015 13:21:51 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

This is one subject where I *don't* want them coming to CEP to engage with us.

Nor do I. 

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 30, 2015 13:17:30 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I guess Elliot Rodger was an anti PUA MRA. Lol. The subgenera of the MRA movement are mind boggling.

jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

You know why women don't want to date/sleep with you? Because you're dripping with skeeze. Despite what you may think, we're not idiots.

[ESF]

I have not yet read the article, but did anyone watch that VH1 Reality series that was on about 10 years ago called The Pick Up Artist? It was about this guy named Mystery who was a coach for men who were having trouble with the ladies, and the show was a contest for these very nerdy men to see who could be the best pick up artist. They toned down some of the most awful shit, so it was more like watching 40 Year Old Virgin, just with a douchebag doing the encouraging instead of Paul Rudd.

It was fascinating to watch how they trained these naive nerds to find women by manipulating them and engaging in very subtle psychological abuse that would put the woman down to build the guy up. And how many of the guys just took to it.

[jojoandleo]

Dec 30, 2015 13:32:01 GMT -5 ESF said:

I have not yet read the article, but did anyone watch that VH1 Reality series that was on about 10 years ago called The Pick Up Artist? It was about this guy named Mystery who was a coach for men who were having trouble with the ladies, and the show was a contest for these very nerdy men to see who could be the best pick up artist. They toned down some of the most awful shit, so it was more like watching 40 Year Old Virgin, just with a douchebag doing the encouraging instead of Paul Rudd.

It was fascinating to watch how they trained these naive nerds to find women by manipulating them and engaging in very subtle psychological abuse that would put the woman down to build the guy up. And how many of the guys just took to it.

[wawa]

So...to the non-PUA portion of the MRA's. The activists and such.

So. There is a nugget of truth to their hysteria.
Issues like boys being more likely to be wrongly diagnosed with ADHD. That's a real thing.
Father's parental rights do get violated in some pretty heinous ways in certain states - I think the most recent story posted here was Utah?
The expectation that men will do all the physically hard, dirty jobs is in fact a little fucked.

But where it all goes totally off the rails is to put all that at the feet of feminists.
How the fuck did feminists make those things happen? How do you make that leap? I mean...what? Like exempting women from selective service is something the FEMINISTS DID?

And then to take the jump to just completely denying any and all structural sexism is just...I mean...the fuck?

I've argued with these people and they're so so contemptuous of what they call Social Justice Warriors. But they honestly believe that they in fact are downtrodden. It's bizarre.

[ESF]

Dec 30, 2015 13:36:13 GMT -5 jojoandleo said:

Dec 30, 2015 13:32:01 GMT -5 ESF said:

I have not yet read the article, but did anyone watch that VH1 Reality series that was on about 10 years ago called The Pick Up Artist? It was about this guy named Mystery who was a coach for men who were having trouble with the ladies, and the show was a contest for these very nerdy men to see who could be the best pick up artist. They toned down some of the most awful shit, so it was more like watching 40 Year Old Virgin, just with a douchebag doing the encouraging instead of Paul Rudd.

It was fascinating to watch how they trained these naive nerds to find women by manipulating them and engaging in very subtle psychological abuse that would put the woman down to build the guy up. And how many of the guys just took to it.

To give you an example, his whole theory was about how men need to "demonstrate higher value" to make a  woman see that the man she is talking to is better than she is, which in turn, will both cause her to want him and make her insecure, making her easier to catch.  To execute that, he had this thing called a "neg," which was more like a observation designed to make a woman feel suddenly self conscious.  So he'd have the guys say things like, "you blink a lot" or "your pinky finger is really long."  Things that aren't insults, and aren't going to result in the guy getting slapped. But that might cause a woman to both be flattered that the guy is looking at her, but also cause her to question her appearance around a self confident man, and become vulnerable and interested in them. That's the theory anyway.  Doesn't always work in practice, which is why these jerks are all so frustrated.

His whole theory on how to interact with women was that men constantly needed to be demonstrating higher value in everything they do. He basically brainwashed these men into thinking they were entitled to remind women of their inferiority. 

[jojoandleo]

Dec 30, 2015 13:49:00 GMT -5 wawa said:

So...to the non-PUA portion of the MRA's. The activists and such.

So. There is a nugget of truth to their hysteria.
Issues like boys being more likely to be wrongly diagnosed with ADHD. That's a real thing.
Father's parental rights do get violated in some pretty heinous ways in certain states - I think the most recent story posted here was Utah?
The expectation that men will do all the physically hard, dirty jobs is in fact a little fucked.

But where it all goes totally off the rails is to put all that at the feet of feminists.
How the fuck did feminists make those things happen? How do you make that leap? I mean...what? Like exempting women from selective service is something the FEMINISTS DID?

And then to take the jump to just completely denying any and all structural sexism is just...I mean...the fuck?

I've argued with these people and they're so so contemptuous of what they call Social Justice Warriors. But they honestly believe that they in fact are downtrodden. It's bizarre.

And many feminists fight FOR those things.  Or to end them.  Feminists want the tougher jobs in the military.  Feminists WANT women to be allowed into the world of construction and dirty jobs.  Feminists want to end the shitty custody laws.  Not all.  And feminists have their crazies as well (Hello, Vagina bread), but come on!  MEN created this world.  MEN.  NOT feminists.  

[jojoandleo]

Dec 30, 2015 13:53:53 GMT -5 ESF said:

Dec 30, 2015 13:36:13 GMT -5 jojoandleo said:

To give you an example, his whole theory was about how men need to "demonstrate higher value" to make a  woman see that the man she is talking to is better than she is, which in turn, will both cause her to want him and make her insecure, making her easier to catch.  To execute that, he had this thing called a "neg," which was more like a observation designed to make a woman feel suddenly self conscious.  So he'd have the guys say things like, "you blink a lot" or "your pinky finger is really long."  Things that aren't insults, and aren't going to result in the guy getting slapped. But that might cause a woman to both be flattered that the guy is looking at her, but also cause her to question her appearance around a self confident man, and become vulnerable and interested in them. That's the theory anyway.  Doesn't always work in practice, which is why these jerks are all so frustrated.

His whole theory on how to interact with women was that men constantly needed to be demonstrating higher value in everything they do. He basically brainwashed these men into thinking they were entitled to remind women of their inferiority. 

Now I am trying to think if a guy has used this on me.  Like, I was all, "Someone putting me down would lead to a drink dumped over his head."  But those examples?  Noticing a "quirk" and commenting on it?  I think that probably did happen to me in my early 20s.  And it did work, because I was insecure and stupid.  This makes me so sad.

[wawa]

Dec 30, 2015 14:08:45 GMT -5 jojoandleo said:

Dec 30, 2015 13:53:53 GMT -5 ESF said:

To give you an example, his whole theory was about how men need to "demonstrate higher value" to make a  woman see that the man she is talking to is better than she is, which in turn, will both cause her to want him and make her insecure, making her easier to catch.  To execute that, he had this thing called a "neg," which was more like a observation designed to make a woman feel suddenly self conscious.  So he'd have the guys say things like, "you blink a lot" or "your pinky finger is really long."  Things that aren't insults, and aren't going to result in the guy getting slapped. But that might cause a woman to both be flattered that the guy is looking at her, but also cause her to question her appearance around a self confident man, and become vulnerable and interested in them. That's the theory anyway.  Doesn't always work in practice, which is why these jerks are all so frustrated.

His whole theory on how to interact with women was that men constantly needed to be demonstrating higher value in everything they do. He basically brainwashed these men into thinking they were entitled to remind women of their inferiority. 

Now I am trying to think if a guy has used this on me.  Like, I was all, "Someone putting me down would lead to a drink dumped over his head."  But those examples?  Noticing a "quirk" and commenting on it?  I think that probably did happen to me in my early 20s.  And it did work, because I was insecure and stupid.  This makes me so sad.

There is a scene in a movie that shows this - is it 40 year old virgin? I don't remember. But I watched it in utter horror because it felt SO VERY FAMILIAR. 

Except I never went home with any dudes from bars.  I was a floozy in college, but I pretty much kept it among friends.  But dudes in bars who started out with compliments or whatever usually just got quickly brushed off. Dudes who decided to lead with something semi-rude at least got me to chat because how could I not fire back on something like that?

Ugh.  It made me feel so dirty though.  Like, this is a THING??  I was watching whatever movie it was with my husband and was all, "this isn't a thing, right?" and he assured me that it was, and that it works and that he did not use it.  

[Deleted]

On a side note: the pick-up artist reminds me of the Dennis System on Always Sunny:

[lvhorses]

Whatever you do, don't venture in to "TheRedPill" on Reddit. You will feel disgusted and extremely sad.

[tiramisu]

I just read the 5 lines a future wife shouldn't cross and am horrified. Like, fully creeped out. The whole article was interesting and I do think there's a point to men not knowing what their role is now that the traditional one is fading away, but the reaction has been pretty awful.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Dec 30, 2015 14:22:08 GMT -5 @slayerkate said:

On a side note: the pick-up artist reminds me of the Dennis System on Always Sunny:

Day over. Must go watch that episode now.