Also, this is an area where I've learned from POC reading on MMM that there are reasons for it. So maybe lay off the judgements so as not to alienate as the woc may not feel comfortable speaking up.
I am both siding with the OP AND under the distinct impression that she and her husband are so high horsey I'd feel tempted to hit them both with a rubber chicken.*
*you totally thought I was going to say wooden spoon, didn't you?
LOL.
But no!
agnes is seriously one of the sweetest, kindest people I've met. I don't even know how to describe how mellow and pleasant she is. She just...is! Any SoCal Nestie can back me up here. And she sort of sounds like Minnie Mouse (this is meant to be a compliment -- seriously adorable and not a mean bone in her body)!
So I just *feel* the anguish and horror through the screen.
If agnes is this upset, something really upsetting occurred.
Post by pixelpassion on Feb 2, 2016 0:44:25 GMT -5
I think some of the "what constitutes abuse" guidelines vary from state to state. In my state, it is considered child abuse to hit a child with an implement, especially if it leaves some bruising.
Not going to lie, getting hit with a spoon when I was a kid was worse than spanking. I remember having some gnarly bruises from getting the spoon.
I think your H's reaction given where he's coming from makes sense. Perhaps it didn't help the situation, but I could see myself reacting in a very similar way.
Your SIL may choose to keep spanking. BUT you get the choice to allow it or not in your home. That is your right. And so, it's your SIL's right to never come back to your home. I would stick by your decision to not allow it in your house but recognise that there may be some responses to it that you don't like.
I think your H calling his sister to apologise for yelling would be a good move, but he can also say that he won't allow spanking in his home.
Also, this is an area where I've learned from POC reading on MMM that there are reasons for it. So maybe lay off the judgements so as not to alienate as the woc may not feel comfortable speaking up.
I have never met a woc who gave a shit about whether or not someone on a message board was anti spanking.
This has been discussed more than once on MM moms. The gist of it was that the societal consequences of misbehaving in public can be much worse for black kids than for white kids, which is why some black moms choose harsher punishments. And that posters on these boards tend to discount those experiences. Trying to remember who said that. pennypenny? sfy?
This has been discussed more than once on MM moms. The gist of it was that the societal consequences of misbehaving in public can be much worse for black kids than for white kids, which is why some black moms choose harsher punishments. And that posters on these boards tend to discount those experiences. Trying to remember who said that. pennypenny? sfy?
But this isn't about blacks people. I'm guessing the OP, BIL and SIL are all white. It just seemed weird to inject race into this.
And trying to explain what black people do to black posters is extra weird.
This has been discussed more than once on MM moms. The gist of it was that the societal consequences of misbehaving in public can be much worse for black kids than for white kids, which is why some black moms choose harsher punishments. And that posters on these boards tend to discount those experiences. Trying to remember who said that. pennypenny? sfy?
But this isn't about blacks people. I'm guessing the OP, BIL and SIL are all white. It just seemed weird to inject race into this.
Not to mention that "harsher punishments" doesn't de facto mean "hitting a two year old in anger with a wooden spoon at someone else's house."
But this isn't about blacks people. I'm guessing the OP, BIL and SIL are all white. It just seemed weird to inject race into this.
I was sitting here wondering if I missed something! I too make the assumption that all the players in this are white. I'm not sure what this has to do with race at all.
I think you guys could have handled it better but I don't know that I could allow someone to retrieve a spoon from my drawer to hit any child in my home, never mind a two year old.
I'm not even 100% anti spanking. I don't think it's effective and I don't plan to do it but I don't think it's always child abuse.
However, hitting a two year old with a spoon is pretty crazy to me. I mean, it's pointless anyway, they don't understand, it won't change behavior. Unless you are planning to actually beat them painfully, then you might be successful in creating deep fear even in a young child of two. But people often say "it's just a light tap" etc. which doesn't make any sense. A light tap is pointless, actually inflicting a decent amount of pain on a two year old by hitting them with a spoon does seem abusive. So which is it ...
This has been discussed more than once on MM moms. The gist of it was that the societal consequences of misbehaving in public can be much worse for black kids than for white kids, which is why some black moms choose harsher punishments. And that posters on these boards tend to discount those experiences. Trying to remember who said that. pennypenny? sfy?
But this isn't about blacks people. I'm guessing the OP, BIL and SIL are all white. It just seemed weird to inject race into this.
Okay, that's fair. But given past discussions about spanking and race, I can see how marlenabell would interpret the chorus of "how could anyone do that?!" as a possible microagression, so I can't blame her for pointing it out. I was just trying to give some context for her comment.
Post by jeaniebueller on Feb 2, 2016 9:19:52 GMT -5
I have really gone back and forth in this thread. I would not be cool with her grabbing a spoon from my drawer and threatening her child with it. That said, I think that agnes and her H could have handled the situation a little better. My BIL and SIL have spanked their kids in front of us before and its really....awkward. We don't spank, so my DS usually feels really uncomfortable about it too.
But I would've been just as appalled as you were, and I'm not sure how I would've reacted -- probably not well.
I mean.
Who the fuck is going to sit idly by while somebody runs into your kitchen (YOUR KITCHEN!) to get a spoon to hit a 2.5-year-old?
I would not.
Oh, who am I kidding? I would've blocked the way to the kitchen or drawer or wrestled the spoon out of her hand.
Seriously. WTF?
That may be your child, but it's MY spoon in MY house.
You don't get to use my spoon to hit your kid in my house.
All of this.
I cannot imagine any universe where I would sit idly by while someone goes to grab an object to hit a toddler with it in any house, but especially not my own.
As for handling it wrong (setting the text aside), the situation was not one that allowed time for calm, rational thought. It was jump up and stop that child from being hit by a clearly angry parent.
And I know this isn't the point of the post, but WTF at statutes dictating hitting your child = abuse only if it leaves marks???
I just don't even know what to do with that nor with the realization that we teach our children that hitting others is wrong but some parents don't think that applies to them all in the name of "discipline."
The issue here is how the OP handled the situation. I agree. I would NOT be happy if my SIL tried to go in my kitchen to get a spoon. But I wouldn't have started a screaming match in front of the child about her parenting style. Then turned around and send her a nasty text about her being a child abuser.
But in the SIL defense not every 2.5 is a sweet little angel child. Life was struggle when my kid was that age. As a parent you try your best to get the child under control. This child that is being described here was THROWING things and it could have broken the TV or hit someone in the head. Then the timeouts did not help. It's hard position to be as a parent. If you let the child continue with their antics what does that teach them? Then you will get judged for not taken action.
I have never met a woc who gave a shit about whether or not someone on a message board was anti spanking.
This has been discussed more than once on MM moms. The gist of it was that the societal consequences of misbehaving in public can be much worse for black kids than for white kids, which is why some black moms choose harsher punishments. And that posters on these boards tend to discount those experiences. Trying to remember who said that. pennypenny ? sfy ?
I was a spanker (my kid just turned 20 , so those days are long gone) and for me, part of it was cultural. It was twofold--one, that it's how I was raised and therefore, what I knew. And two, that basically, the last thing any black mother worth her salt is going to allow is disrespect in public. I really don't know if I had a young child today (would never happen unless a kid was left on my doorstep) if I would spank anymore. Now that I'm older and have more patience and better analytical skills, I'm not sure. I also think whether or not a parent "needs" to spank is highly dependent on the child. Anyway, I do understand people trying to take the feelings of WOC into account in this situation even if no POC are involved. If I understand part of what was being discussed on MMM recently correctly, some of the WOC were annoyed that people were saying that things like ear piercings were trashy and some WOC felt like that was a slight, because for most POC, it's cultural and/or not viewed that way. Following that train of thought, especially in the wake of conversations about aggressions/microaggressions, I certainly understand why someone would question whether saying that hitting with your child with a spoon is child abuse and worthy of calling CPS could be viewed as a slight or insult to some of the WOC here who have admitted to spanking.
FWIW, I am not personally offended that people think any form of spanking is abuse. I have discussed this on CEP before, but I don't expect mainstream parenting norms and the endless barrage of articles about those norms to apply to me. I had a child in college, I spanked him, I made him eat the food that I put on his plate, he wasn't allowed to talk back to me or tell me "no," and several times in high school, when he asked me if I cared what he thought/did his opinions matter, etc., I told him, "no," and that was the truth. I feel good about my parenting decisions, even the ones I might reconsider in 2016, and I feel great about my kid, who is awesome, so all this hand-wringing and/or criticism about methods that may (or may not) be cultural doesn't mean anything to me. I also wouldn't care about the pierced ear thing, but obviously some people did. We're not a monolith, but I would never begrudge anyone for attempting to be sensitive on these matters.
My opinion on the matter at hand, although that's not why I was tagged here, is that it was handled inappropriately. First, I consider it the business of the parents if they choose to spank and I don't consider that form of spanking to be child abuse, even if it is personally intolerable to agnes or...sorry, I'm drawing a blank on Mr. Agnes' screen name. Second, I think if they wanted to intercede, and that's their right to voice their opinion (I had 8900 people give me their thoughts on the best way to rear my child and I found that delivery was everything, which is why some of those people got themselves cursed out and others, I took the advice), there is a way to do it and this was not the way. All this did was heighten the drama and put SIL on guard. Besides that, I don't think it's appropriate to have this conversation in front of their children. That is undermining.
Jumping in here as this is a topic that I've been pondering lately.
I've been wondering what my stance will be if/when I ever have children in regards to spanking. On the one hand I've seen with friends' children it being effective. On the other I can't reconcile telling my child "No. We do not hit!" when they try to hit me or others and then hitting them as a punishment. Telling them that its not okay for them to hit or for me to hit my spouse or for me to hit anyone else but that it is perfectly okay to hit them (even if it does not hurt them). It's not seen as okay societally or legally okay for adults to hit each other so why is it okay to hit a child? I just keep going back and forth. If I have a kid and I spanked and they ever ask me that I have no idea how I would answer.
Plus I remember the few times I was spanked by my parents and I don't have good feelings associated with it - I remember feeling scared and very hurt (not physically) and they didn't hit me with objects or even very often. I clearly remember in elementary school my mom giving me a good smack on my leg when I back talked her or something stupid (probably the last time she ever did as I don't recall any other time after that, too old for spankings and such I suspect) when I was convinced in that moment that she hated me and I just felt so unloved. That feeling didn't last long obviously and I have a wonderful relationship with my parents but I haven't forgotten it. And obviously it seems the majority of people that were spanked normally growing up didn't feel that way when they were spanked. But I did and I don't want my potential kid to ever feel what I felt.
To the OP I would probably not say anything to a friend spanking in front of me but I also wouldn't let them use a tool in my home to do it. I wouldn't have sent that text as I wouldn't have wanted to alienate them.
I find it crazy that abuse definitions are so different by state. Hit your kid with a spoon in CA and its abuse, move to NY and its a "parenting choice".
I didn't get home from work until after 10 last night. I won't be able to post much today either. I have read most of the thread so far. I am going to try and respond to things as I remember them while I have a few minutes to post.
I reiterate, I AM NOT CALLING CPS. I overreacted in THINKING of doing that. I shouldn't have sent the text. I am going to give SIL some space. And yes, H handled the situation through his emotions which might not be the best. But he has told me he is not sorry for what he did.
H did talk to BIL. It was not this one time thing. They have used the spoon multiple times. BIL admitted to H that he was wrong. That's all I know about their conversation.
Again, I do not condone spanking but can agree it is a parents choice. I do draw the line at using objects. Change the spoon to a belt, a paddle, whatever. I am not okay with that "philosophy."
I don't think sending SIL studies or articles is going to be productive at this point. Because yes, I am childless.
Though, I am not childfree. I'm can't go in to great detail right now, but we have raised children.
I've ran out of time. I think I'll be back at lunch time.
It says in the OP update that SIL has used a spoon before. But she did not specify how/if it left a mark. That is beyond the point. It's the OP house and they should decide what they will allow.
WAS SHE SUPPOSED TO WAIT AND SEE IF HER SIL ACTUALLY HIT THE KID???
Yes I mean if someone said "I'm going to have to punch my toddler in the face for this .. Can you grab him and pass him to me?" Would one hand the child over and see if they meant it or not ?
Post by sparkythelawyer on Feb 2, 2016 19:04:12 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be nice if every time we see something bad happen, we could all just redirect the misbehaving adult, toss in some sage words and hand them a pamphlet for parenting methods?
Yeah. Well. Until then, I may be MYOB about like, 95% of the parenting decisions around me but you can bet your favorite wooden spoon that I would absolutely say something if I saw a child getting hit in front of me. And it probably wouldn't be pleasant.
OK, the text wasn't ideal, but I also hope SIL is laying low in part so she can ponder her own poor behavior.
WAS SHE SUPPOSED TO WAIT AND SEE IF HER SIL ACTUALLY HIT THE KID???
There has to be middle ground between whistling as the hit the child with a spoon and yelling in the parent's faces.
I very honestly don't think I could restrain myself from yelling at someone who was storming into my kitchen and rummaging through my drawers for a spoon to hit a two-year-old.
I seriously just could not.
Frankly, it would be a great show of restraint on my part not to hit that person with a spoon myself.
There is no universe where I would hit my kid with a spoon but your h "flipping out" on her in the middle of her frustration was the absolute worst way to handle it. Take her aside when she's calm and ask if she needs support or if she's read literature on corporal punishment and that a 2.5 year old isn't even old enough to understand that type of punishment is linked to behavior.
But embarrassing her and undermining her in front of her own kids / telling her her parenting is wrong in a shitty way in front of a house full of people is fucked up.
Feeling so out of control angry with your kids and so comfortable hitting them with a spoon is bad enough. Then that you will do it in someone else's house is the worst way to handle the situation imo.
Maybe agnes and her H didn't handle the situation perfectly. Maybe its because they were shocked at their SILs anger and reactions. Parent how you want, but in my house, you regulate yourself and no damn way will I stand by and watch you hit a kid using my spoons. Hold your anger till you get home.
Why not pull her aside and talk to her, though? Sending her home to beat her kid in private seems like a better idea?
Why not pull her aside and talk to her, though? Sending her home to beat her kid in private seems like a better idea?
well sure, it's easy to know what you should do a week later!
I don't know what this means. Did I break some board rule about responding to an old post or something?
My brother has no kids and loves to tell me in the most condescending way possible how I should parent. My original point was I cant see a universe where I'd scream at a friend / SIL I love and care about before I sat her down and asked if she was ok, overly stressed or needed a break if she immediately wanted to beat her kid at my house when they misbehaved.
That said, if op's SIL is an asshole and this was the straw that broke the camels back, then ok.
I was abused as a kid and not one single person intervened. So judging by this crowd we have come a long way, but in my experience people do not get involved even when it happens right in fro t of them. When I called the cops they asked me if I " really wanted to get my mom in trouble". So yeah, I guess I come from a place of wishing someone sat my mom down and asked wtf was going on with HER rather than creating more fear and chaos in my life.
Thanks both of you- sorry I didn't mean to be Debbie Downer! My dad eventually got sober and we moved out. so eventually there was a rational adult watching out for me. FTR I am 100% against corporal punishment, especially on a small toddler.