Student-Testing Backlash Grows

[IIOY]

H sees the entitlement among his students (e.g., they don't show up for a test, offer no excuse, and expect H to administer a makeup at a time that is convenient for them) and I've seen it among young law associates.

In the case of the former, the administration coddles the students by not demanding accountability, and hassling H if he penalizes them, and in the latter, the associates have bought the myth that being paid six figures means they are actually worth it.

[whitewolf]

May 17, 2012 13:12:31 GMT -5 IIOY said:

May 17, 2012 13:06:41 GMT -5 emilyj said:

Because I will tell you as a college professor, when these kids show up in my classroom with no critical thinking skills whatsoever, it is torture. How can a 20 year old not be able to apply concepts to a real-life situation? How? Instead, they're looking at me like I just asked them to dissect the person sitting next to them with their pencil and no anesthesia.

My husband would agree with you and add that they cannot write a complete, properly-constructed sentence.

that would be because they will.not.learn.grammar.

The elementary schools around here have cut grammar. Why, you may ask? Because their NCLB initiative to prove they are remediating or whatever is that they must follow a program (don't know its name) where you spend X minutes on writing every day, X minutes on reading silently every day, etc. NONE of the minutes are allotted to grammar.

My students cannot fucking identify nouns and verbs.

[chicken]

In my state, testing is every morning for a week.

The school I work for eliminated pep rallies for sports. Now, they have a pep rally for the state testing. There is a line item in the budget for special tshirts for the kids to wear on testing days. The kids get a special pizza and ice cream party lunch on testing days. After lunch they get an hour long recess/break. The school knows there is no incentive for the students to even take the test let alone work to do well on it, so the students are treated like royalty during test week, to try to distract them from that thought.

[Deleted]

This what I don't understand...how kids in college can suck so much.

I look at what my 1st grader is doing in 1st grade and lot of it is similar to what I did in 3rd grade, especially the grammar stuff. I knows contractions, predicts, etc. already.

[beer]

Thanks everyone for finally convincing me I am making the right decision to send my kid to private school for K next year. We did get into a magnet school here in Charlotte NC and it is a decent school. But all of these factors you have mentioned confirm that public is not the way to go right now.

[emilyj]

May 17, 2012 14:00:48 GMT -5 @septimus said:

This what I don't understand...how kids in college can suck so much.

I look at what my 1st grader is doing in 1st grade and lot of it is similar to what I did in 3rd grade, especially the grammar stuff. I knows contractions, predicts, etc. already.

IMO, it's because they are taught to the test. So when they come to me, and I'm asking them to do something besides memorize something specifically for a test, they panic. When I ask them to take something and analyze it and think about it critically, they can't do it. (I am making a broad generalization here - some can, and some can do it exceptionally well, but a lot can't.)

I ask one of my classes to keep a journal each week about how they see the topic we are covering relates to their daily lives, and it causes a mass freak out. I teach public relations. I am talking about things like customer relations - so come on. Are you telling me you've never had a good or bad experience at the Chick-Fil-A drive thru and what it means to you as a consumer? Yet asking them to write these weekly reflections is like pulling teeth.

I also agree with their grammar/spelling. They have no grasp of simple grammar rules, and they are totally reliant on spell check to catch everything for them. That's why I also had a group turn in a paper saying a client should "asses" something carefully. That is sheer laziness.

[sporklemotion]

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised that those of you in higher ed. are finding that students aren't prepared. I teach AP English lit and, while I love the students and many things about the course, I'm frustrated that there's increasing pressure to turn it into a test prep course rather than a college-level course that ends in a test (I'm aware that it's not really college-level in practice, but that's another issue). There's a push to have students work with passages of the length on the exam and to work on writing timed analyses and answering multiple choice questions on them. Which does help them to read small pieces closely, but does nothing to help them tackle a 500 page Victorian novel or to write a multi-draft paper. I've resisted this push as much as I can but who's to say that everyone is?

A really good book about the effect of testing on a school is Tested, by Linda Perlstein. It's about a school that has been relatively successful on standardized tests, but at the expense of teaching critical thinking. It shows how much is getting cut from the curriculum due to accountability.

[Deleted]

We took SD out of her well-regarded private school this year. Part of the motto is "to think critically" When we complained to the school about some of th comments being made in class that were xenophobic, not accepting of other faiths, etc. that SD was upset about they told us that they needed to give a pass to those girls because their "critical thinking skills" weren't as advanced as SD's. Then WTF are they teaching?

[Deleted]

May 18, 2012 10:33:55 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i think standard testing is a good thing. it sounds to me like the main arguments against it are that kids hate it cuz it's stressful and/or the tests reveal how far behind they are and teachers/schools hate it cuz it reveals what a crappy job they do. both factors need to be measured for improvement in american education to occur. how will they know where to focus efforts if they don't know who needs to help, who isn't doing their job or where the problems are? 1 week of every 9 weeks does not sound excessive nor disruptive to the normal learning curriculum to me. if schools can't spare one day or one week out of 9 to measure progress, maybe they need to be send to time management training or learn to prioritize their activities. parents can take responsibility for their own kids development too instead of making kid-raising a government service provided solely by schools.

i think doing away with testing sends the wrong message to kids and parents everywhere. they are being taught to perform, not for fun or to expand their little minds for the neato factor. no, they are being taught to perform the skills they are meant to have learned, skills needed in life and in work. i don't see any better way to find out if a kid can read and understand what he read than to ask him to read something and answer questions about it or prove that he knows how to add by doing some problems and coming up with the right answer. the only explanation i see for not wanting performance to be measured by testing is laziness, desire to hide poor performance by students or schools, or a bad assumption regarding the purpose of education. the end result is supposed to be a student that can demonstrate knowledge and skills. if they can't handle demonstrating their skills in school, how does anyone expect them to be able to do it when they get a job?

to all the kids penalized for poor test scores by not getting into honors or whatever, the answer is to not croak on the test. test performance = consequences. that's real life. if that kid bombs the interview for the job later in life, they won't get another chance, they just won't get the job. if kids are sucking at tests, the answer is not to stop testing but for the kids to step it up. parents can help by sitting at the table and studying with them, feeding them a good breakfast before school, enforcing bed times, instilling drive for achievement instead of comfort and laziness, etc.

High stakes testing is out of control.

I have no problem giving something like the IOWAs to make sure a kid is on track, but when you say if you don't do well on this 1 test you can't take honors classes, move on to 4th grade, and tie teacher pay directly to the results it becomes over the top.

Districts are now doing regular intervals of benchmark testing just to ensure kids do well on the test. A good classroom teacher will know which kids are on track and which ones are struggling.

It is instilling laziness because they start reading only for what the test will look for, (i.e. recall of facts) and not deeper analysis of what all the facts put together mean.

[Deleted]

I'm dying that the person who is in favor of standardized testing is also the one who couldn't use capitalization, who wrote "cuz," and who does not grasp prounoun-antecedent agreement. (I present Exhibit A: if that kid bombs the interview for the job later in life, they won't get another chance, they just won't get the job.)

whitewolf's gem about not teaching grammar is at once horrifying and unsurprising. many of dr. harpy's students can't write basic sentences. They might be able to pass a standardized multiple choice reading comprehension test, but if you ask them to read something, think about it, and apply the concepts to a new set of facts, they are completely lost.

[whitewolf]

May 18, 2012 10:33:55 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i think standard testing is a good thing. it sounds to me like the main arguments against it are that kids hate it cuz it's stressful and/or the tests reveal how far behind they are and teachers/schools hate it cuz it reveals what a crappy job they do. both factors need to be measured for improvement in american education to occur. how will they know where to focus efforts if they don't know who needs to help, who isn't doing their job or where the problems are? 1 week of every 9 weeks does not sound excessive nor disruptive to the normal learning curriculum to me. if schools can't spare one day or one week out of 9 to measure progress, maybe they need to be send to time management training or learn to prioritize their activities. parents can take responsibility for their own kids development too instead of making kid-raising a government service provided solely by schools.

i think doing away with testing sends the wrong message to kids and parents everywhere. they are being taught to perform, not for fun or to expand their little minds for the neato factor. no, they are being taught to perform the skills they are meant to have learned, skills needed in life and in work. i don't see any better way to find out if a kid can read and understand what he read than to ask him to read something and answer questions about it or prove that he knows how to add by doing some problems and coming up with the right answer. the only explanation i see for not wanting performance to be measured by testing is laziness, desire to hide poor performance by students or schools, or a bad assumption regarding the purpose of education. the end result is supposed to be a student that can demonstrate knowledge and skills. if they can't handle demonstrating their skills in school, how does anyone expect them to be able to do it when they get a job?

to all the kids penalized for poor test scores by not getting into honors or whatever, the answer is to not croak on the test. test performance = consequences. that's real life. if that kid bombs the interview for the job later in life, they won't get another chance, they just won't get the job. if kids are sucking at tests, the answer is not to stop testing but for the kids to step it up. parents can help by sitting at the table and studying with them, feeding them a good breakfast before school, enforcing bed times, instilling drive for achievement instead of comfort and laziness, etc.

A week of standardized testing per quarter already adds up to a month of standardized testing per year. That's a lot of instructional time lost. Plus, that is in addition to all the regularly scheduled unit tests, projects, or essays you would give at the end of a unit. That is an absurd amount of testing.
I also don't take educational feedback seriously from people who don't capitalize and say "cuz" while simultaneously talking about how teachers and students suck and have no drive.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2012 10:51:56 GMT -5 whitewolf said:

May 18, 2012 10:33:55 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

I also don't take educational feedback seriously from people who don't capitalize and say "cuz" while simultaneously talking about how teachers and students suck and have no drive.

::links arms and walks off into the sunset with whitewolf::

[emilyj]

May 18, 2012 10:33:55 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i think standard testing is a good thing. it sounds to me like the main arguments against it are that kids hate it cuz it's stressful and/or the tests reveal how far behind they are and teachers/schools hate it cuz it reveals what a crappy job they do. both factors need to be measured for improvement in american education to occur. how will they know where to focus efforts if they don't know who needs to help, who isn't doing their job or where the problems are? 1 week of every 9 weeks does not sound excessive nor disruptive to the normal learning curriculum to me. if schools can't spare one day or one week out of 9 to measure progress, maybe they need to be send to time management training or learn to prioritize their activities. parents can take responsibility for their own kids development too instead of making kid-raising a government service provided solely by schools.

It sounds to me like you completely missed the point of what everyone in this thread was saying. I see your reading comprehension skills are about on the same level as your capitalization, grammar and non-text speak.

[whitewolf]

May 18, 2012 10:55:26 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

May 18, 2012 10:51:56 GMT -5 whitewolf said:

May 18, 2012 10:33:55 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

I also don't take educational feedback seriously from people who don't capitalize and say "cuz" while simultaneously talking about how teachers and students suck and have no drive.

::links arms and walks off into the sunset with whitewolf::

::snuggle::

tell me your troubles while we walk, harpy.

[whitewolf]

May 18, 2012 11:56:42 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

ah well, i don't use grammar in non-professional communications. it's laziness. see how poor performance of language skills totally discredits the worth of an individual and their opinions? the attacks on my intelligence due to your assessment of my performance prove my point about the need for kids to learn to perform.

i do not agree with the points expressed in this thread. i can't affect what anyone else chooses to believe, but let me point out that it is possible for me to read and totally comprehend all that was said above and still come to a different conclusion. because i disagree with the crowd and express myself online in a less than english test ready manner, it does not logically follow that i have no reading comprehension skills or intelligence.

are these educators responding to me this way? that's really scary.... even if they are all english teachers (even college english teachers) and not logic, math or science teachers, i still expected a little use of common sense and critical thinking in receiving my post.

does anyone not know what i meant by "cuz" ? it is short for "because" for those that are interested in exchanging thoughts and meanings rather than random off-topic personal attacks. i should've known this thread about no tests was actually an english test in disguise.

quote]
You're so cute!
If you make an insightful comment, maybe we can discuss it with you. Except that your lack of punctuation renders you virtually unreadable.

The fact that you think punctuation is not important except when you want it to be is an excellent metaphor for the mindset of American students which you bemoan. HTH.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2012 11:56:42 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i posted here because i am truly concerned about the quality of education in america. i feel that if we keep public schools, we should standard test.

It's great that you FEEL that way, but do you have anything besides gut feelings to go on? My knowledge is based solely on anecdotes (and no, anecdotes aren't data), but as standardized testing has increased, I have seen the quality of undergraduates decreasing. If you have data to the contrary, I'm all ears. If I had seen anything to indicate that the ever-increasing emphasis on standardized tests actually improved educational quality, then I would support it.

May 18, 2012 11:56:42 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i think it's a better option to get rid of the public school system and put child-rearing back on parents and communities. someone said testing makes kids learn to test, not to think. really, i feel that's the parents responsibility, not the teacher. that goes back to my point about people not having the same idea of what is the purpose of public school. the subjects are math, science, spelling, reading, etc. and do not include critical thinking, social/emotional intelligence, wisdom, good judgement, etc. i don't even remember classes like that in college. i think there was an ethics and morality class that the business majors took, but it didn't teach you how to have ethics and morals, more examine and discuss those that exist.

Really, all you're demonstrating is that you don't understand the purpose of education. No, you don't take a class called Critical Thinking. It's cultivated through studying history, literature, and the scientific method.

If your writing is indicative of supporters of standardized tests, then I'm going to become militantly anti-testing. I don't care if it is just a message board. It's difficult to take seriously criticisms of the educational system from someone with atrocious writing.

[wawa]

Banana - I'm having a hard time reconciling what your saying here. You think that to fix the educational system we should just get rid of public school.

But if we keep public school, the best way to improve it is to continue to teach to the test. To make it more regimented, fact based, etc.

Is that accurate?
How in the world does that make sense with your first point? If we got rid of public school, what do you see as the replacement? Private schools? Home schooling? How does that jive with your more tests=good views?

[Deleted]

She doesn't even see the logical inconsistency of claiming that poor parenting, lack of positive role models, and the breakdown of the family lead to poor public education while also claiming that we should do away with public education. Apparently all those students in public schools who are currently living with broken families, poor parenting, and a lack of positive role models will suddenly do better if those same sub-par families are responsible for educating them. MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

Also: LOL that math is just about learning math and should be tested on a math test. I don't remember most of the math I took in school, but the - gasp! - critical thinking skills that I learned in math classes have been very helpful in other areas of my life.

[whitewolf]

May 18, 2012 14:04:43 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

She doesn't even see the logical inconsistency of claiming that poor parenting, lack of positive role models, and the breakdown of the family lead to poor public education while also claiming that we should do away with public education. Apparently all those students in public schools who are currently living with broken families, poor parenting, and a lack of positive role models will suddenly do better if those same sub-par families are responsible for educating them. MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

She also doesn't see the logical inconsistency of justifying herself saying, "I just don't feel like writing properly" while also scoffing at virtually all students who-- remarkably enough-- share the same viewpoint!

[emilyj]

May 18, 2012 11:56:42 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

are these educators responding to me this way? that's really scary.... even if they are all english teachers (even college english teachers) and not logic, math or science teachers, i still expected a little use of common sense and critical thinking in receiving my post.

Why yes, I am a college educator responding to you - and one of the things you said that you took from all of the previous posters was "teachers/schools hate it cuz it reveals what a crappy job they do".

No. First of all, you are making a huge and unfair blanket statement to a lot of educators that work their asses off and go up against circumstances that they have no control against.

Second, one of the reasons teachers and schools hate it is because their evaluations and funding are tied directly to it - which again, brings in a whole host of factors that they can't control.

It would be really nice if everything was so cut and dry, and all students lived in environment where their parents were fully involved, they were all getting proper nutrition, proper rest, extra help in school when they needed it, and 8 solid hours of rest the night before they took a test, but wake up. That's not the reality of a lot of children in this country.

Even when it is, you get students like me that just flat out suck at standardized tests.

So no. I don't think standardized tests reflect the 'crappy job teachers and schools do'.

Furthermore, you say "purpose of education to me is to teach a subject, not develop a young person into a fully thinking adult."
Well, in a subject like math, or chemistry, then maybe the subject is more cut and dry...but even then, the purpose of education may not be to develop the person into a fully thinking adult - but it IS to develop the student into a critically thinking person - to be able to look at that subject and be able to do more with it that just spit back formulas, spit back vocabulary words, or spit back passages in a book.

Education is more than rote memorization, which seems to be all that you think it is. And yes. When they get in to my college classroom, I do not do rote memorization. I expect critical thinking, and I am extremely disappointed in the lack of it. When all my students are asking me is "But what's going to be on the TEST?", then I say standardized testing is harming our children.

[heightsyankee]

Awww, and you guys were worried no new crazies would join the board.

[heightsyankee]

Correction--- kids aren't asking to not take standardized tests. Parents and education professionals are asking to stop administering so fucking many tests. Different. Kids are not saying they are stressed; they are exhibiting adult levels of stress as seen by teachers, therapists and researchers.

[marie427]

May 18, 2012 15:13:08 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

if you know the stuff, pass the test. if you don't, only two reasons, you're dumb, didn't try or your education was not effective.

Re-read what you just wrote.

Nerves never get in the way of test-taking. Never. I was a damn good student and quite good at standardized testing, and nerves still got the best of me every once in a while. Doesn't mean I was dumb, didn't try or that my education was not effective.

[heightsyankee]

May 18, 2012 15:19:35 GMT -5 marie427 said:

May 18, 2012 15:13:08 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

if you know the stuff, pass the test. if you don't, only two reasons, you're dumb, didn't try or your education was not effective.

Re-read what you just wrote.

Nerves never get in the way of test-taking. Never. I was a damn good student and quite good at standardized testing, and nerves still got the best of me every once in a while. Doesn't mean I was dumb, didn't try or that my education was not effective.

Yes to this- go way back in thread and read anecdote about now 15 year old niece.

[wawa]

crap will happen sometimes, doesn't mean we should throw out all the things that "should" work just because sometimes they randomly don't.

But you think we should throw out the entire public education system?
Because sometimes, in some ways, it doesn't work?

And replace it with....nothing. We're objecting to endless rounds of testing so instead we get...NOTHING. how is that logical??