Not wanting your child to be the "only" is certainly understandable. It seems like such a self-perpetuating problem, though - I wonder how private schools can improve and attract more minority children. And I think by minority children, we're mostly talking about black and possibly Hispanic children - I don't see this being so much of a problem with, for example, Asian children. IME, Montessori schools tend to have heavily Asian (especially Indian) enrollment, often equal to the white enrollment. I know that isn't necessarily the case everywhere or in most private schools, of course.
To the mothers of such kids on here - what would make a school feel more welcoming to your children if it wanted to increase minority enrollment?
I can only speak for myself, but I want nothing to do with a private school that is looking to increase minority enrollment. I recognize that this is a privilege, because I have the ability and resources to move to any place where the public school meets my diversity criteria. I would not be comfortable with a school that doesn't have a longstanding history of diversity and inclusion, because no matter how hard leadership may try to make changes, there will be parents who push back and vocally oppose their efforts. Then I'll be in jail. All bad.
But to answer the question, the only way I'd choose such a school is if it was founded with the express purpose of providing black kids with the highest quality education, regardless of income. I'd need a certain ratio of black teachers and administrators, equal representation of blacks and Hispanics on the board of directors, etc. People who would advocate for my child at every level.
One of the issues that we had at my kids' last school was that the schools social justice mission was very much in favor of racial and ethnic diversity and the school actively worked towards having a diverse student body. This matched very well with our family's values. However, no one at the school had (to my observation) done even the most minimal work required to educate THEMSELVES on what it means to educate vulnerable populations. Like, I would be surprised if they'd so much as read a mom-blog on the topic.
They approached the education of these kids from a place of complete white privilege and the results have been disastrous. For everyone. They don't have enough money to reduce classroom sizes and didn't apparently anticipate that you actually need smaller classrooms if you're going to have kids whose first academic environment of their lives is a first grade classroom (as opposed to a kindergarten prep nursery school). They didn't have money or even really any idea of how to recruit and hire teachers with special competency in vulnerable populations. They eliminated their spanish language program because the kids coming in "already speak spanish" which demonstrates just total ignorance about the fact that these kids could not read or write in spanish and so were not literate in it. They didn't have adequate social support for parents of these kids, didn't understand that these families wouldn't be able to volunteer like their old parent base, or that they wouldn't be able to subject themselves to criminal background checks because they didn't have social security numbers or that they wouldn't be able to volunteer to drive kids to the art museum for the same reason... I could go on.
The point was that the school decided to do this huge diversity initiative and did not in any way anticipate or prepare for it. We ended up pulling our kids out because the school was essentially not able to do anything other than babysit kids. They had huge classrooms with inexperienced teachers and disenfranchised parents and the Administration was just standing there like deer in the headlights confused about why they had so many kids who were assessed at zero growth for the year.
All that is just to say that when white schools "decide" to diversify, IME, there are a lot of ways they can fuck that up.
But is it easy to ensure that he gets into that preferred public school. Because honestly that is the reason we did not move out of state for our next house purchase. Yes, there are excellent public schools, but we could not ensure that DD would get into them (lottery). It seemed like too much of a risk.
We are actually selling our current house in the "better" school district to move to the more diverse one. These two schools are not based on lottery, just your address (that may change in the future but the County currently has a no choice option for these two schools so that only those who live nearby attend). My mistake was not touring the school before buying our house b/c I would have seen the reasons why the more diverse school had "lower" test scores. Well, duh it's lower since it is equipped with more special ed resources and ESL classes. Strip those away and you get scores that are on par with the "better" schools in this suburb.
That's what we did. And you know why her new elementary school has such a low rating? Because of the ESL programs, including the full Spanish immersion program in which I hope to enroll her. Plus I got more house at a reasonable price, and a bunch of diverse neighbors! Score for me!!!
Post by imojoebunny on Mar 29, 2016 13:23:21 GMT -5
My daughter goes to private school in the south. Her school gets some scholarship money from the state, not a ton, maybe enough for 3 kids at full tuition. Her school is 35% black (state average is 37%) and 53% white. By contrast the local public elementary in this district is 16% black and 68% white, my DS goes there. I strongly disagree with the idea that anyone who applies should be accepted to private school if they get vouchers/funding. The kids at DD's school who get scholarships are kids who are not being served well by public schools. The school is not necessarily better than public school for just any kid, but it is a wonderful place for specific kids. Selective enrollment is one of the reasons the environment and education is better for some children. No school is a great fit for every child.
I mentioned this on MMM but we faced a situation with DS1 recently that had us re-think even the local Catholic school we applied to. My older son came home crying a few weeks ago when one of his friends at school pointed out that he was black. From the context I could get from a 4 year old, it seems like they were talking about basketball (the friend LOVES basketball and watches a ton with his dad) and somehow this led to the friend stating my son is black. It did not seem malicious, just an observation. However, my son was sad and said he wanted to be white like everyone else at school and at hockey because he didn't like being the only black kid in class. For him, being the only one was a jarring feeling when someone else pointed it out. Until then, my son was never ever bothered by this. I felt awful for him but I know it is very normal to want to belong. He is definitely surrounded by people of different races and cultures, just not at school and at hockey. Thankfully, DS1 was over this by the next morning but I know this won't be the last time we will deal with it.
Anyway, after touring a more diverse elementary school nearby and speaking with the volunteers in the PTO, we feel far more comfortable sending him to that public school vs our current zoned school or the Catholic school. We want to establish a strong, independent, confident young man at the elementary level and that means keeping him in a diverse environment at school. My mother in law is a former public school principal and even created curriculum at the state level, so she will help us navigate the system and assess appropriately. We will eventually send the kids to private school and expect to face a new set of situations at that point. DH and I both went to prep schools in the northeast so we are very familiar with that environment. However, the good experiences we gained in prep school far outweigh the bad and think it's still worth sending our boys there, or the equivalent of it in our city if they don't want to board.
FWIW, I am SHOCKED that the programs that are prevalent in the northeast are nowhere to be found here in the south. DH and SIL paid full tuition by BIL and many of my friends got free rides via the A Better Chance program or something similar (that is for NYC kids).
andwhat , imo, there is such a huge difference from parochial schools (particularly in the Mid-Atlantic and NE) and other private schools, particularly prep schools, that I don't even consider them to be similar. The difference in diversity is just stark.
100% yes to the bolded...I feel like I'm completely in the minority with this thought anytime I have this discussion. I'm wondering if this is a geographical thing...I'm outside of Philly
andwhat , imo, there is such a huge difference from parochial schools (particularly in the Mid-Atlantic and NE) and other private schools, particularly prep schools, that I don't even consider them to be similar. The difference in diversity is just stark.
I am glad ABC has a presence here! I know there are similar foundations in the NYC/NJ/CT area but can't remember the names anymore.
Just wanted to share another anecdote. SIL and DH went to different prep schools and their parents decided to pay out of pocket for full tuition rather than have them live on campus and get a free ride all 4 years. It was important to FIL that they had some place to come home and feel ok in case racial tensions got out of hand at school. I used to say boarding was a great option before kids but it's so dependent on the child and personality and situation. I completely understand now why my FIL felt that way, and I didn't grow up with the scary things he did in GA.
Not really related to this thread, but since the current plan is to keep my daughter in independent schools through high school, I would love to hear more about yours and your husband's experiences. We will probably switch schools, most likely to one in DC or VA. Her current school has a boarding option, though I can't imagine ever letting her board anywhere.
andwhat , imo, there is such a huge difference from parochial schools (particularly in the Mid-Atlantic and NE) and other private schools, particularly prep schools, that I don't even consider them to be similar. The difference in diversity is just stark.
100% yes to the bolded...I feel like I'm completely in the minority with this thought anytime I have this discussion. I'm wondering if this is a geographical thing...I'm outside of Philly
So then you likely know quite well the difference between a Neumann-Goretti and a Germantown Friends ! But I have to say, I hear the latter has come a long way in terms of diversity.
The part that sort of surprises me is that it's not about economics. I had assumed it was primarily because of high costs and I would like to know more about the other reasons minority students are not enrolling.
I have so many feelings about this. I can only speak anecdotally for my rural southern area, but here minority students are not welcome at private schools. What actually happens when they enroll or try to enroll, I really don't know.
My coworker sends her kids to a local private school that is 97% white compared to 56% white for the local public high school. Comments she has made in the past have included "who knows, if I sent (daughter) to public school she might be dating a black boy right now" and a description of how her son learned in his high school history class how history has to be studied critically and despite misconceptions, "the majority of slaves were really very happy and well-treated by their owners."
I would love to see this study compare racial discrepancies with the year the schools were founded. I took examples I could think of in my area and looked them up.
The school my coworker's kids attend was founded in 1970. Again, 97% white compared to 56% for the public school.
The school near my hometown was founded in 1969 and is 97% white compared to 51% white in the local public school.
For a larger town near me, 4 of the 5 most well-known schools were all founded in 1969 or 1970. These four schools range from 82% to 99% white with an average of 90%. District high schools range from 2% to 42% white with an average of 16% white.
In the larger town, there is an outlier (school #5) that was founded in 1871. I couldn't find racial data for that school, but their history page proudly noted they were the first school in our area to integrate in 1963. Go them.
Does anyone want to guess when integration became widespread? I am convinced the majority of schools (ETA: at least in my rural southern area) with greatest disparities were founded by white citizens trying to skirt desegregation. It's disgusting.
I am glad ABC has a presence here! I know there are similar foundations in the NYC/NJ/CT area but can't remember the names anymore.
Just wanted to share another anecdote. SIL and DH went to different prep schools and their parents decided to pay out of pocket for full tuition rather than have them live on campus and get a free ride all 4 years. It was important to FIL that they had some place to come home and feel ok in case racial tensions got out of hand at school. I used to say boarding was a great option before kids but it's so dependent on the child and personality and situation. I completely understand now why my FIL felt that way, and I didn't grow up with the scary things he did in GA.
Not really related to this thread, but since the current plan is to keep my daughter in independent schools through high school, I would love to hear more about yours and your husband's experiences. We will probably switch schools, most likely to one in DC or VA. Her current school has a boarding option, though I can't imagine ever letting her board anywhere.
I am pretty sure we are in the same area and I think I know what school you are referring to. I will have to PM you.
@natariru that is horrific. I am so sorry that happened to you.
I like to think that all those things ended up teaching me stuff that made me a more awesome person in the end. It helps me sleep at night, lol.
I did learn how to navigate different social circles that I probably wouldn't come in contact with until way later in life if I continued to stay in my comfy diverse bubble in Newark.
I wonder if you went to the school I applied to but declined. When I took the test it was so....white. I'm white, but this place was WHITE. Like, Biff and Muffy and that shit. I looked around and was like "newp".
I can't say my school was much better. It was mainly white with a smattering of POCs. Hardly a good mix but hopefully nothing like what you experienced.
The part that sort of surprises me is that it's not about economics. I had assumed it was primarily because of high costs and I would like to know more about the other reasons minority students are not enrolling.
I have so many feelings about this. I can only speak anecdotally for my rural southern area, but here minority students are not welcome at private schools. What actually happens when they enroll or try to enroll, I really don't know.
My coworker sends her kids to a local private school that is 97% white compared to 56% white for the local public high school. Comments she has made in the past have included "who knows, if I sent (daughter) to public school she might be dating a black boy right now" and a description of how her son learned in his high school history class how history has to be studied critically and despite misconceptions, "the majority of slaves were really very happy and well-treated by their owners."
I would love to see this study compare racial discrepancies with the year the schools were founded. I took examples I could think of in my area and looked them up.
The school my coworker's kids attend was founded in 1970. Again, 97% white compared to 56% for the public school.
The school near my hometown was founded in 1969 and is 97% white compared to 51% white in the local public school.
For a larger town near me, 4 of the 5 most well-known schools were all founded in 1969 or 1970. These four schools range from 82% to 99% white with an average of 90%. District high schools range from 2% to 42% white with an average of 16% white.
In the larger town, there is an outlier (school #5) that was founded in 1871. I couldn't find racial data for that school, but their history page proudly noted they were the first school in our area to integrate in 1963. Go them.
Does anyone want to guess when integration became widespread? I am convinced the majority of schools (ETA: at least in my rural southern area) with greatest disparities were founded by white citizens trying to skirt desegregation. It's disgusting.
I'm sure it is merely co-incidental that almost all the private schools in Nashville started in 1971..... (that's the year fed courts required desegregation).
imojoebunny your daughter's school sounds great and I'm glad your experience is different than mine. I'm pretty sure we live in the same state.
I am also in the same state and at a private school, and we toured a LOT of private schools, and have friends at a lot of the big ones in our city, and I do not think that minority children are unwelcome, I actually think it is the opposite.
imojoebunny your daughter's school sounds great and I'm glad your experience is different than mine. I'm pretty sure we live in the same state.
I am also in the same state and at a private school, and we toured a LOT of private schools, and have friends at a lot of the big ones in our city, and I do not think that minority children are unwelcome, I actually think it is the opposite.
I'm happy to hear that was your experience as well. To be fair, I think there is some truth to the jokes dividing our state into "your city/area" and "everything else." If you secede please take me with you.
Post by LoveTrains on Mar 29, 2016 22:19:14 GMT -5
I work at an independent school and have experience in the land of the elite schools. Most have a strong commitment to diversity but it doesn't always execute well. We would love to have more students of color at our school but it's hard to convince them to come. We need to do better. It's sad when the students of color are mostly international.
The part that sort of surprises me is that it's not about economics. I had assumed it was primarily because of high costs and I would like to know more about the other reasons minority students are not enrolling.
I'm not representative of all black folks, but I can tell you why - although we earn enough to pay for private school - I'd never send my kid to a private school:
1. The Historical Context of Private Schools in Memphis being the Great Escape from School Desgregation. I have zero interest sending my kid some place that was borne out of the desire to keep your precious snowflake from my little black child.
2. Data doesn't support that local private schools are "better" than the enriched programs the public school system offers. Locally, private school students aren't getting better college scholarships. They are pretty much tit-for-tat. So, why should I shell out $17K a year for my kid to attend a private school and the public school students are getting scholarships to Stanford?
Not wanting your child to be the "only" is certainly understandable. It seems like such a self-perpetuating problem, though - I wonder how private schools can improve and attract more minority children. And I think by minority children, we're mostly talking about black and possibly Hispanic children - I don't see this being so much of a problem with, for example, Asian children. IME, Montessori schools tend to have heavily Asian (especially Indian) enrollment, often equal to the white enrollment. I know that isn't necessarily the case everywhere or in most private schools, of course.
To the mothers of such kids on here - what would make a school feel more welcoming to your children if it wanted to increase minority enrollment?
Again, I'm an ass, but I just flat out don't want my kid there. I'm not sending my child someplace that grew out of fear of little black kids. Nor do I want my kid subjected to even more opportunities to be the victim of disparity in disciplinary actions. NAWL.
I can only speak for myself, but I want nothing to do with a private school that is looking to increase minority enrollment. I recognize that this is a privilege, because I have the ability and resources to move to any place where the public school meets my diversity criteria. I would not be comfortable with a school that doesn't have a longstanding history of diversity and inclusion, because no matter how hard leadership may try to make changes, there will be parents who push back and vocally oppose their efforts. Then I'll be in jail. All bad.
But to answer the question, the only way I'd choose such a school is if it was founded with the express purpose of providing black kids with the highest quality education, regardless of income. I'd need a certain ratio of black teachers and administrators, equal representation of blacks and Hispanics on the board of directors, etc. People who would advocate for my child at every level.
I will say that even though our school is looking to increase diversity, the bolded is not the issue. Our lack of diversity is not due to attitude of students or parents. It's more a history of local demographics and finances. That is changing in our city and is changing in our school as well.
That you know of. Start accepting a bunch of lil black kids and see what happens.
I have so many feelings about this. I can only speak anecdotally for my rural southern area, but here minority students are not welcome at private schools. What actually happens when they enroll or try to enroll, I really don't know.
My coworker sends her kids to a local private school that is 97% white compared to 56% white for the local public high school. Comments she has made in the past have included "who knows, if I sent (daughter) to public school she might be dating a black boy right now" and a description of how her son learned in his high school history class how history has to be studied critically and despite misconceptions, "the majority of slaves were really very happy and well-treated by their owners."
I would love to see this study compare racial discrepancies with the year the schools were founded. I took examples I could think of in my area and looked them up.
The school my coworker's kids attend was founded in 1970. Again, 97% white compared to 56% for the public school.
The school near my hometown was founded in 1969 and is 97% white compared to 51% white in the local public school.
For a larger town near me, 4 of the 5 most well-known schools were all founded in 1969 or 1970. These four schools range from 82% to 99% white with an average of 90%. District high schools range from 2% to 42% white with an average of 16% white.
In the larger town, there is an outlier (school #5) that was founded in 1871. I couldn't find racial data for that school, but their history page proudly noted they were the first school in our area to integrate in 1963. Go them.
Does anyone want to guess when integration became widespread? I am convinced the majority of schools (ETA: at least in my rural southern area) with greatest disparities were founded by white citizens trying to skirt desegregation. It's disgusting.
I'm sure it is merely co-incidental that almost all the private schools in Nashville started in 1971..... (that's the year fed courts required desegregation).
This exactly. I bet if she were to dig through news archives, there would be evidence of school desegregation and the subsequent founding of these private schools - that's what happened in Memphis.
Anecdote alert. I teach at an independent Catholic school (so, parochial, but all teachers and admin are lay people and we are not part of a parish) and we are in the process of hiring a Director of Diversity and Equity. I cried when they made the announcement that they'd funded the position. It's such a big move for us and I'm thrilled to see more POC in our community (already the numbers have increased dramatically in the 11 years I've taught there).
The part that sort of surprises me is that it's not about economics. I had assumed it was primarily because of high costs and I would like to know more about the other reasons minority students are not enrolling.
I'm not representative of all black folks, but I can tell you why - although we earn enough to pay for private school - I'd never send my kid to a private school:
1. The Historical Context of Private Schools in Memphis being the Great Escape from School Desgregation. I have zero interest sending my kid some place that was borne out of the desire to keep your precious snowflake from my little black child.
2. Data doesn't support that local private schools are "better" than the enriched programs the public school system offers. Locally, private school students aren't getting better college scholarships. They are pretty much tit-for-tat. So, why should I shell out $17K a year for my kid to attend a private school and the public school students are getting scholarships to Stanford?
This is where I'm at. We did do one of the private schools in Nashville that was started before the great white flight, but now that my boys are in the public schools I don't see the benefit of spending $20+K per kid for private school. The ROI just isn't there. I can spend that $20k+ on outside enrichment and still come out ahead. We've used our savings to take them on amazing trips that we wouldn't otherwise afford because we'd be shelling out $60k/yr in tuition.
I'm not representative of all black folks, but I can tell you why - although we earn enough to pay for private school - I'd never send my kid to a private school:
1. The Historical Context of Private Schools in Memphis being the Great Escape from School Desgregation. I have zero interest sending my kid some place that was borne out of the desire to keep your precious snowflake from my little black child.
2. Data doesn't support that local private schools are "better" than the enriched programs the public school system offers. Locally, private school students aren't getting better college scholarships. They are pretty much tit-for-tat. So, why should I shell out $17K a year for my kid to attend a private school and the public school students are getting scholarships to Stanford?
This is where I'm at. We did do one of the private schools in Nashville that was started before the great white flight, but now that my boys are in the public schools I don't see the benefit of spending $20+K per kid for private school. The ROI just isn't there. I can spend that $20k+ on outside enrichment and still come out ahead. We've used our savings to take them on amazing trips that we wouldn't otherwise afford because we'd be shelling out $60k/yr in tuition.
White flight into neighborhoods that are not diverse and then funnel additional money to the school to give it perks that other public schools don't have are not really any better imo. They basically have made it a private school environment with the application process being whether you can afford to live in the neighborhood.
This is where I'm at. We did do one of the private schools in Nashville that was started before the great white flight, but now that my boys are in the public schools I don't see the benefit of spending $20+K per kid for private school. The ROI just isn't there. I can spend that $20k+ on outside enrichment and still come out ahead. We've used our savings to take them on amazing trips that we wouldn't otherwise afford because we'd be shelling out $60k/yr in tuition.
White flight into neighborhoods that are not diverse and then funnel additional money to the school to give it perks that other public schools don't have are not really any better imo. They basically have made it a private school environment with the application process being whether you can afford to live in the neighborhood.
I am embarrassed to admit that my daughter's independent school was founded to avoid integration, and I didn't even realize it until this (our third) year. For those familiar with DC schools, the woman who founded our school was a long time head of Holton Arms - a school that (as I understand it) does fairly well now in terms of diversity.
I admit it was dumb of me not to realize this, but I honestly never thought about it when we were looking for schools. Our local public isn't an option (and selling our house and moving wasn't one either), so of the independent schools we'd toured, this one was very warm and welcoming of our family.
H went to one of those southern prep schools that was founded in 1967. He and his sister were the only Hispanic kids in the entire school. He says culturally it was valuable because it taught him to fetishize and imitate wealthy white people in a way that has significantly advanced his career. But people were not very nice to them or the other minority kids and interestingly he has no lifelong friends from the school and his sister's only friends from there are the two black girls who were in her grade.
I know I was lucky that I made lifelong friends in prep school and the same for DH, his sister, and her husband. My friends who attended some bigger and "more elite" prep schools have not so nice stories about them.
@kirkette , FWIW, the prep school I went to was founded in 1909. DH went to one that opened in 1927 and SIL and BIL went to one that opened in 1874.
Mine opened in 1814 .
My class was very diverse but partly because we had such a large international student body. My roommate was from Japan. Other girls on my hall were from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bengladesh, Pakistan, Saudi, India, Ecuador, and Venezuela. I bet less than 1/2 my class was white.
I know I was lucky that I made lifelong friends in prep school and the same for DH, his sister, and her husband. My friends who attended some bigger and "more elite" prep schools have not so nice stories about them.
@kirkette , FWIW, the prep school I went to was founded in 1909. DH went to one that opened in 1927 and SIL and BIL went to one that opened in 1874.
Mine opened in 1814 .
My class was very diverse but partly because we had such a large international student body. My roommate was from Japan. Other girls on my hall were from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bengladesh, Pakistan, Saudi, India, Ecuador, and Venezuela. I bet less than 1/2 my class was white.
This is what I imagine when I think of private schools. Kids from all over the world. That was my distant - sneaking into a dance or two- experience
This is where I'm at. We did do one of the private schools in Nashville that was started before the great white flight, but now that my boys are in the public schools I don't see the benefit of spending $20+K per kid for private school. The ROI just isn't there. I can spend that $20k+ on outside enrichment and still come out ahead. We've used our savings to take them on amazing trips that we wouldn't otherwise afford because we'd be shelling out $60k/yr in tuition.
White flight into neighborhoods that are not diverse and then funnel additional money to the school to give it perks that other public schools don't have are not really any better imo. They basically have made it a private school environment with the application process being whether you can afford to live in the neighborhood.
I wonder if you went to the school I applied to but declined. When I took the test it was so....white. I'm white, but this place was WHITE. Like, Biff and Muffy and that shit. I looked around and was like "newp".
I can't say my school was much better. It was mainly white with a smattering of POCs. Hardly a good mix but hopefully nothing like what you experienced.
All girl school in Union county that is not parochial, starting with K.
I'm learning so much in this thread. I admit to being shocked that most privates mention are only 50ish years old. Out here, we have so many that are 100+ years old.
The school I attended is 133 years old.
This is also shocking to me. I work in a world where most private schools are 100+ years old. The one I used to work at celebrated their 125th anniversary a few years ago. I guarantee that these schools in my realm were not founded because of school integration - but that doesn't mean diversity isn't a problem.