Well now I really hope that @kirkette has surprise fraternal twins so Jack and Diane can come into being.
Leila (we lothe the Layla spelling, but love Derek & The Dominos, and the original allegorical tale of Layla and The Madman), Verionica, Jack ( which would have to be a nickname for Harold-Easton), and Diane.
I prefer the Leila spelling but we didn't put any faith in society so we went with Layla. We still have people saying 'ly-la'
The thing is, the quiz is not obliquely equating white working class culture with American culture, so much as it's specifically and blatantly addressing white working class culture and ignoring everything else. This quiz does not just purport to test whether one is isolated from "American culture" (although I have no doubt that Murray views "average white people" as the most Anerican Americans and therefore their culture as the defining American culture). It says on its very face: "There exists a new upper class that’s completely disconnected from the average white American and American culture at large, argues Charles Murray, a libertarian political scientist and author." The whole point is to test how white you are. It is not hidden. You do not have to read between the lines, take the test, or put on your thinking cap to figure out what this test is all about. They come right out and tell you in the intro paragraph.
I am ashamed with myself for having taken this inane quiz in the past.
But it says "American culture at large." It's essentially defining American culture as white working class culture.
But it's not even doing a very good job of that! It a very specific, non-urban white working class culture. Which, fine, you do you, non-urban white working class. But there are lots of white working class people who live in cities or inner suburbs. Just because they drink lattes and listen to indie rock while working as hair stylists, instead of McDonald's coffee out of a Styrofoam cup and listen to country music while working in a petrochemical plant, doesn't make one group or the other more "salt of the earth". The banal truth is that most mass market consumer goods are going to have people of all political persuasions who consume it.
It's true that the non-urban white working class isn't very well represented in Hollywood and the Eastern Seaboard. Which, sure, that's a fair point. It'd be nice if the people who worked in those jobs were more diverse along a million different dimensions -- less male, less white, more people from the Midwest, more people who didn't go to college or were the first in their family to go to college, etc.
Also, could somebody please explain to me again what questions like the one about the chain restaurants are supposed to be getting at?
Urban liberal elites have better choices than Applebees et al. Chain restaurants make up most of the options in medium-town America like the town where I work (which has been in the news for its opposition to a new mosque, ugh). If you're truly in small-town America, on the other hand, you probably don't have a lot of these chains. I'm not sure how that issue is accounted for by the quiz.
And it's super outdated. I went to a wedding Spartanburg, SC and we ate at a Thai restaurant. It was pretty good!
But it says "American culture at large." It's essentially defining American culture as white working class culture.
But it's not even doing a very good job of that! It a very specific, non-urban white working class culture. Which, fine, you do you, non-urban white working class. But there are lots of white working class people who live in cities or inner suburbs. Just because they drink lattes and listen to indie rock while working as hair stylists, instead of McDonald's coffee out of a Styrofoam cup and listen to country music while working in a petrochemical plant, doesn't make one group or the other more "salt of the earth". The banal truth is that most mass market consumer goods are going to have people of all political persuasions who consume it.
It's true that the non-urban white working class isn't very well represented in Hollywood and the Eastern Seaboard. Which, sure, that's a fair point. It'd be nice if the people who worked in those jobs were more diverse along a million different dimensions -- less male, less white, more people from the Midwest, more people who didn't go to college or were the first in their family to go to college, etc.
Oh, I have lived in white working class suburbs, and I agree with your assessment.
What I meant is we've got people taking this quiz and posting their scores here, all the while it says right there in black and white that it's equating American culture with white working class culture. If people want to do better, that should be sending off some pings in their heads.
You can make a better bubble quiz in about three-and-a-half questions:
(1) how many of your friends didn't go to college? (2) how many of your friends are nonwhite, recognizing this is a fuzzy concept in some situations? (2a) of those, how many are black? (3) how many of your friends have lived more than 100 (50? 25?) miles from a major coastal metropolitan area?
And you might not even need 3. No "Do you shop at REI like those hipster liberals, or Pro Bass Shop like a REAL AMERICAN?" nonsense.
I didn't realize who he was when I initially posted, I apologize if I offended anyone. I thought something seemed off but thought (apparently incorrectly) that PBS would be a reputable source.
To be fair, if some random third-rate Tory hoser was on CBC, I wouldn't know the difference.
The thing is, the quiz is not obliquely equating white working class culture with American culture, so much as it's specifically and blatantly addressing white working class culture and ignoring everything else. This quiz does not just purport to test whether one is isolated from "American culture" (although I have no doubt that Murray views "average white people" as the most Anerican Americans and therefore their culture as the defining American culture). It says on its very face: "There exists a new upper class that’s completely disconnected from the average white American and American culture at large, argues Charles Murray, a libertarian political scientist and author." The whole point is to test how white you are. It is not hidden. You do not have to read between the lines, take the test, or put on your thinking cap to figure out what this test is all about. They come right out and tell you in the intro paragraph.
I am ashamed with myself for having taken this inane quiz in the past.
But it says "American culture at large." It's essentially defining American culture as white working class culture.
Which is why I'm annoyed that people are all, "I want to do better!" in one post and then waltzed into this post to post their scores without so much as a head nod toward the assumptions and stereotypes underlying this quiz.
Clicking through that quiz (I didn't finish) and reading this thread pointed out yet another easily glossed over privilege - being able to just happily/aimlessly take a "fun" quiz with no additional thought. I don't have to pay attention to who the author is, what information the quiz is based on, how the questions are worded, because they don't marginalize me and paint me into a stereotype.
@kirkette mentioned earlier, it's about having a general sense of awareness. I've been reading these threads but didn't want to throw in a "I'm listening/learning/doing better/etc." because it feels like looking for a pat on the back or a cookie - good for you? And based on the number of people who came in and just posted their scores, we're still lacking a general sense of awareness and taking that for granted.
I remember one of our Canadian posters sharing that Canada prides itself on being a cultural mosaic rather than a melting pot. I liked that, and it stuck with me. The belief that Canada as a whole becomes stronger by having immigrants bring with them their cultural diversity for all Canadians to learn from, versus the assimilation of the melting pot.
Mosaic > tossed salad
but all kidding aside, I do like that celebrating cultural differences is at least an ideal here. I mean, we have our share of islamophobes, out and out racists, and unchecked privilege, but at least assimilation isn't the government's goal.
I feel like anything written by Charles Murray, Andrew Wakefield (the autism-vaccine "link" researcher), and that Harvard animal scientist who won tens of millions of R01 grants with defrauded data needs the same sort of disclaimer that the Huffington Post adds to all of their Donald Trump articles. Note to readers: remember that the pseudo-science published here is methodologically poor, statistically unfounded, etc....
So I did some googling and found an interview with this dbag that says he was aiming to find how close to " White American" culture people were living.
WHY??? WHY not consider all cultures and plot it on a diagram. Like it would ACTUALLY be interesting to see how close my preferences and habits align with not only working class white culture, but also working class black culture or middle class Portuguese culture or upper middle class Asian Culture. Then take it a step further and make it regional. How are my tastes and preferences different than a upper class white woman in Atlanta? What about how are my tastes and preferences different than a rich black man in California? Where is there LOTS of cultural overlap and where is there none.
Break it down into ethnicities ( so like Italian American culture vs. Dominican-American culture.)
Step one would be to poll people of many ethnicities and backgrounds and locations and economic backgrounds. Then we could establish a mean and be like " The most average Jane/Joe in freaking America watches 2.5 hours of reality programming per a week, eats out at a chain restaurant 1x per a month, is familiar with cold drip and pour over coffee, but may not like it, and prefers white wine to red" ( errr sum shit I made that up).
THAT could be fucking cool. To see who I am and how I compare in my tastes and preferences to the great " tossed salad" ( ewwwwww) of America.
What this dbag did was be like " I'm only interested in the whites, and then I will tell everyone they are elitist if they aren't" Not interesting or useful.
Also did it never occur to this guy that POC might like the Big Bang Theory and Applebees too? I mean Chilis has those ziosk machines and they keep my kid shut up for like an hour so I can eat.
I once debated Charles Murray in Chicago. He was a courteous and charming conversationalist, but despite our cordiality, a mental disconnect prevented us from engaging in meaningful dialogue. Our minds processed information so differently there was barely any common ground on which to meet.
Now, my favorite conservative gadfly is raising news again. Apparently, tens of thousands of curious online readers have taken his Bubble Quiz. This is a survey purported to measure if you are culturally isolated from “mainstream” white Americans. Interest in the survey has resurrected interest in Murray’s 2012 book, “Coming Apart,” where the survey originated.
First, some context. Since about 1970, whites without a college degree have experienced falling marital rates, increasing divorce rates and mushrooming rates of children born outside of marriage. And this has accompanied an explosive rise in joblessness among white males. It’s not a surprise to me that falling wages and poor workplace conditions result in falling employment and earnings that in turn make marriage and intact families more difficult to sustain.
For Murray, deindustrialization due to globalization, and labor displacing technological change, are merely tests of character that America’s working classes have failed. But then I am an economist. In contrast, Murray is baffled to observe that a collapse in pay and conditions of work led to a decline in white men’s commitment to that work. He writes, “insofar as men need to work to survive — an important proviso — falling hourly income does not discourage work.” Thus, he argues, what America faces is primarily a crisis of values. For Murray, deindustrialization due to globalization, and labor displacing technological change, are merely tests of character that America’s working classes have failed. Never mind that the economic foundation of working men’s and women’s cultural world has been ripped apart for several decades. All that matters in explaining behavior is morals and character, so jolly ho, and keep a stiff upper lip.
How does he get here, and what has the bubble quiz to do with it?
“Coming Apart,” is a double-edged metaphor. Murray agrees with many commentators that America’s social fabric is tearing from the strain of deepening class division, as evidenced by the explosive growth in incomes of a college-educated meritocracy even while incomes decline for the non-college educated. This phenomenon has created a dangerous gulf in these groups’ cultural lifestyles. For Murray, the most disturbing aspect of a rising class cleavage is that declining marriage rates and increases in male joblessness show the white working class has fallen apart.
Murray’s ground-shaking explanation for the widening schisms in income and cultural milieu is the role of IQ in an increasingly complex world. High-IQ meritocrats live the good life because they practice the virtues of marriage, industry, honesty and religion, he writes. (Murray apparently slept through the negligence and fraudulent behavior of the finance sector that led to the Great Recession.) The “white” working class, burdened with low cognitive endowments and confused by the leftist-inspired sexual revolution and welfare state, succumb to poor behavioral choices. Failing to form stable marriages, work patterns, and habits of thrift, he in effect says they fall victim to St. Paul’s injunction against feeding the idle.
Deprived of instruction from their DNA betters, the “white” working classes are floundering within a cognitive abyss unmoored to the values that made America great. For the coauthor of “The Bell Curve,” IQ is genetic destiny, so contemporary classes increasingly contain people born into the class in which they die. Thus, societal leaders (overwhelmingly meritocrats), tuned out from “mainstream” life, fail to proselytize their values to the broader society. They make political, business and civic decisions based on life inside their insulated elitist bubble, Murray writes. Deprived of instruction from their DNA betters, the “white” working classes are floundering within a cognitive abyss unmoored to the values that made America great.
The bubble quiz invites meritocrats to ascertain the extent to which they are isolated from Murray’s parochial idea of the “mainstream.” Numerous comments have noted the biased image of the “mainstream” implicit in a quiz that (reminiscent of Sarah Palin’s identification of “real America” as factory workers in small towns) so obviously weights rural white people higher than city dwellers.
However, Murray’s problem is far more egregious than constructing a biased survey. He writes, “’The American mainstream’ may be hard to specify in detail, but it exists.” Well actually, it doesn’t. There are a great many ways to group and classify Americans. “Mainstream” is a convenient metaphor useful for making statements about people and American life in general, so long as those understood to be included in our meaning are broad enough to not leave obvious members of the national “we” outside the “mainstream.” Since no one can be experientially conversant with all these different patterns of American life, even taking Murray’s argument on its own grounds, we could at most ask meritocrats to be aware of the general trends and conditions of American life. One important grouping within this metaphorical “mainstream” is certainly the implied one in Murray’s quiz: white noncollege-educated Nascar fans who smoke cigarettes, drink inexpensive domestic beer, drive pickup trucks, celebrate military service and live in small towns. This encompasses a lot of people, but simply isn’t most Americans, or even most working-class Americans.
Murray focuses on this group, because he is writing about “white exceptionalism.” People of color figure prominently in his analysis only in so far as their struggle for a place in the “mainstream” destroyed American values vitiating individualism in favor of group rights,\ and work in favor of public largesse. Most people of color, (and particularly, black people) being cognitively inferior, were always incapable of making proper behavioral choices, Murray says. Lack of moral vigor always explained their omission from the “mainstream.”
So, one way of summing up Murray’s recent writing is: The white working classes are in free fall toward the historical life conditions of most of America’s people of color. So, one way of summing up Murray’s recent writing is: The white working classes are in free fall toward the historical life conditions of most of America’s people of color. When these arguments were only applied to people of color, they gained great salience among commentators and policymakers who preferred “blaming the victims” to searching for failures in our institutions.
Murray’s three major books on, respectively, the welfare system, IQ, and this latest, are remarkably consistent. He believes the nation faces a crisis because liberal policies of the ‘60s have left a demoralized lumpen proletariat composed of people of color and whites who are too stupid to negotiate modern life. If this is what many conservatives believe (and who doubts it, since many are trumpeting Murray’s argument), then it goes a long way toward explaining their sustained attack on unions, minimum wages, social safety net programs and support for right-to-work laws, etc. Many conservatives who think like Murray appear to believe America does not need a middle class, just obedient workers willing to behave and conform to 19th century norms. Will 19th century liberalism work in a 21st century world? Moreover, can we really explain all those angry whites flocking to Donald Trump’s campaign on the basis of Murray’s arguments about declining American values? Many conservatives touting Murray for exactly this point seem to be saying so. However, despite Donald Trump’s demagoguery, he is not telling white voters they are stupid. Nor is he saying they should stop complaining and behave. Likely, working classes of all demographic groups are a lot smarter than elitists like Murray think.
Gerald D. Jaynes is a professor of economics and of African American studies at Yale University. He is recognized as an expert on race relations and the economic conditions of African Americans. He is the author of numerous books, including “A Common Destiny: Blacks and American Society” and “Branches Without Roots: Genesis of the Black Working Class in the American South.” Jaynes is currently engaged with book projects examining the effects of economic decline on the social and cultural conditions and identities of working class Americans.
I think we can all agree that MMM is quite a bubble. Which is a problem.
I grew up in Dallas and went to what I thought was a diverse high school but looking back it probably wasn't. I went to a pretty conservative university and now live in a smallish town outside a major metro area.
However, I don't think that means that people in my area are automatically racist vs those in big cities. Racism is everywhere across all walks of life.
We just have to actively do better.
I remember one poll or post a few years ago, where many MMM were trying to convince other people that the best place in the nation to live was Kansas City, Missouri. It wasn't due to COL; but it was stated as fact. I really did a head tilt on that one. Then realized that people have very different values, and must not be thinking of historical context or what life is like as a POC who places a high premium on living in areas that are easier to navigate peacefully.
While I am very aware of the segregation issues my metro (and my side of the state line) historically had and still struggle with I wouldn't jump to assuming a POC couldn't be happy here. I know this is largely a bubble that is probably created by H's co-workers at the University or the neighbors we spend the most time with that happen to be POC but outside but I would be curious to know how it differs from other metros. (This is barring the urban core, my bubble doesn't extend there and I assume POC specifically men aren't treated as they should be)
My neighbors are from different Latin American countries and both chose KC from many others to live in and work in. They met and married here. Both preferred it to NYC and Boston when visiting. I wonder how unique their experience is to others looking at our universities or job searching.
So I did some googling and found an interview with this dbag that says he was aiming to find how close to " White American" culture people were living.
WHY??? WHY not consider all cultures and plot it on a diagram. Like it would ACTUALLY be interesting to see how close my preferences and habits align with not only working class white culture, but also working class black culture or middle class Portuguese culture or upper middle class Asian Culture. Then take it a step further and make it regional. How are my tastes and preferences different than a upper class white woman in Atlanta? What about how are my tastes and preferences different than a rich black man in California? Where is there LOTS of cultural overlap and where is there none.
Break it down into ethnicities ( so like Italian American culture vs. Dominican-American culture.)
Step one would be to poll people of many ethnicities and backgrounds and locations and economic backgrounds. Then we could establish a mean and be like " The most average Jane/Joe in freaking America watches 2.5 hours of reality programming per a week, eats out at a chain restaurant 1x per a month, is familiar with cold drip and pour over coffee, but may not like it, and prefers white wine to red" ( errr sum shit I made that up).
THAT could be fucking cool. To see who I am and how I compare in my tastes and preferences to the great " tossed salad" ( ewwwwww) of America.
What this dbag did was be like " I'm only interested in the whites, and then I will tell everyone they are elitist if they aren't" Not interesting or useful.
Also did it never occur to this guy that POC might like the Big Bang Theory and Applebees too? I mean Chilis has those ziosk machines and they keep my kid shut up for like an hour so I can eat.
Why not consider other cultures? Because ... Charles Murray
Can you imagine how cool this study could be though? It would be someone's LIFE work and be possibly outdated before they could finish though.
I feel like anything written by Charles Murray, Andrew Wakefield (the autism-vaccine "link" researcher), and that Harvard animal scientist who won tens of millions of R01 grants with defrauded data needs the same sort of disclaimer that the Huffington Post adds to all of their Donald Trump articles. Note to readers: remember that the pseudo-science published here is methodologically poor, statistically unfounded, etc....
Yes, please add in all those "scientists" and medical professionals who ran The Tuskegee Experiment to this group, for when Huff Po, Wa Po, NYT, et al. runs their "Why don't people of color seek medical help sooner for their health conditions and horrible risk factors" health puff pieces.
Um ... because Tuskegee wasn't that long ago, and people don't forget that shit, for 1,000, Alex?
1972 , for context, most American women of color still hadn't received the right to vote at the time the experiment ended. The 19th amendment, in 1920 , my ass!
I remember one poll or post a few years ago, where many MMM were trying to convince other people that the best place in the nation to live was Kansas City, Missouri. It wasn't due to COL; but it was stated as fact. I really did a head tilt on that one. Then realized that people have very different values, and must not be thinking of historical context or what life is like as a POC who places a high premium on living in areas that are easier to navigate peacefully.
While I am very aware of the segregation issues my metro (and my side of the state line) historically had and still struggle with I wouldn't jump to assuming a POC couldn't be happy here. I know this is largely a bubble that is probably created by H's co-workers at the University or the neighbors we spend the most time with that happen to be POC but outside but I would be curious to know how it differs from other metros. (This is barring the urban core, my bubble doesn't extend there and I assume POC specifically men aren't treated as they should be)
My neighbors are from different Latin American countries and both chose KC from many others to live in and work in. They met and married here. Both preferred it to NYC and Boston when visiting. I wonder how unique their experience is to others looking at our universities or job searching.
Boston is just a racist place. We are the epitome of the " undercover" racists. Truly. We are all liberal on the outside, but in reality we harbor more racist attitudes and opinions than the norm.
Post by jeaniebueller on Sept 6, 2016 13:34:11 GMT -5
The irony is that Charles Murray is describing a segment of society that lives in the worst kind of insulated, homogeneous bubble. Believe me , I live in an area like this.
Boston is just a racist place. We are the epitome of the " undercover" racists. Truly. We are all liberal on the outside, but in reality we harbor more racist attitudes and opinions than the norm.
Yeah man, Boston is one of those Hard Pass places. Maybe for a weekend, or a endurance race, but definetly not place to put down roots. I don't have it in me to battle daily like that.
The irony is that Charles Murray is describing a segment of society that lives in the worst kind of insulated, homogeneous bubble. Believe me , I live in an area like this.
agreed. If all you know is Applebee's Isn't that a bubble?
Post by penguingrrl on Sept 6, 2016 13:47:00 GMT -5
After all that went on last week what the fuck to this getting posted?
This was designed to support the myth that "American" was synonymous with white, working class, rural culture and excludes block people, other minorities and all immigrants. For all the talk of reading and learning no learning has actually happened.
I feel like anything written by Charles Murray, Andrew Wakefield (the autism-vaccine "link" researcher), and that Harvard animal scientist who won tens of millions of R01 grants with defrauded data needs the same sort of disclaimer that the Huffington Post adds to all of their Donald Trump articles. Note to readers: remember that the pseudo-science published here is methodologically poor, statistically unfounded, etc....
Yes, please add in all those "scientists" and medical professionals who ran The Tuskegee Experiment to this group, for when Huff Po, Wa Po, NYT, et al. runs their "Why don't people of color seek medical help sooner for their health conditions and horrible risk factors" health puff pieces.
Um ... because Tuskegee wasn't that long ago, and people don't forget that shit, for 1,000, Alex?
1972 , for context, most American women of color still hadn't received the right to vote at the time the experiment ended. The 19th amendment, in 1920 , my ass!
After all that went on last week what the fuck to this getting posted?
This was designed to support the myth that "American" was synonymous with white, working class, rural culture and excludes block people, other minorities and all immigrants. For all the talk of reading and learning no learning has actually happened.
I posted it. I recognized at the time that something was off but I couldn't place it. I didn't google Murray before posting it here, I incorrectly presumed that something posted on the PBS website would be less biased/racist. I apologized in an earlier post about posting it and offending people.