Chicago teachers on strike

[teflep]

To go with Evals, the piece on radio today stated job security (aka tenure). Tenure is a tricky thing where I can see pros and cons of the pros and cons.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 6:43:13 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

On the news this morning they are stating one of the sticking points was how teachers would be evaluated. Definitely not strike worthy.

How you are evaluated affects whether or not you have a job--how is that not important. I have read that they are putting more of the teacher's evaluation based on student test scores and that may sound ok from the outside, but what if you get a lot of students in your class that are already behind, frequently absent, and have a home life that doesn't encourage homework and studying? Do you want to be compared to the honors teacher whose students have supportive parents who are educated and provide many experiences and insist on homework and study time?

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 16:44:45 GMT -5 noonecareswhoiam said:

Seriously-when you are forced to give the ACT to a student with an IQ of 60, placing your career's future in the No. 2 pencil of that student isn't a very compelling premise.

This is the problem. Teachers have no control over who comes into the class. No control over what happens at home. Sometimes not a lot of control over behavior--depends on the administration and how supportive they are.

Imagine if businesses had to hire EVERYONE that applied. You are the supervisor of these people and your job evaluation, salary, and keeping your job depends on how they do. You can't fire them, unless they do something illegal or dangerous. Would you think that was fair?

About the "ridiculous" length of the school day--does anyone really think that is all of the work that is done by teachers? There is planning, grading, calling parents, etc. Most teachers I know bring work home and work several hours at night.

ETA: Most teachers accept these challenges and know it is part of the job. To say that you are a bad teacher because you have been assigned a class full of students who are several grade levels behind with learning disabilities and those students don't have the high test scores of the honors students is not fair and is driving some good teachers away.

[Deleted]

Sweet, many of us are teachers. I myself have taught inner city, as have others.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 18:05:13 GMT -5 @irishbride said:

Sweet, many of us are teachers. I myself have taught inner city, as have others.

I am talking about people who have responded about the short days and why don't teachers want to be evaluated since business does it. They don't always think about the difference between having a business that can decide on who to hire and can fire and accepting students where they are educationally and doing what you can with them. Business and teaching are not comparable in many ways, as you know, but there are many who continue to say that teachers don't want to be evaluated. Teachers just want to be evaluated based on things they can control, as you know.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 18:07:58 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 10, 2012 18:03:47 GMT -5 sweettooth said:

This is the problem. Teachers have no control over who comes into the class. No control over what happens at home. Sometimes not a lot of control over behavior--depends on the administration and how supportive they are.

Imagine if businesses had to hire EVERYONE that applied. You are the supervisor of these people and your job evaluation, salary, and keeping your job depends on how they do. You can't fire them, unless they do something illegal or dangerous. Would you think that was fair?

About the "ridiculous" length of the school day--does anyone really think that is all of the work that is done by teachers? There is planning, grading, calling parents, etc. Most teachers I know bring work home and work several hours at night.

Do not EVEN go there. This is not a competition over who works harder. $52,000 for someone with a 4 year degree is an amazing salary even if they are working 60 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, which teachers aren't.

There needs to be a way to evaluate the effectiveness of teachers. Rahm has proposed one way. I'm not a huge fan of it. But I'm not seeing ANY alternative proposed by the CTU that would allow me to say, "Why don't we go with that?" What it really looks like to anyone standing on the outside is that teachers just don't want to be evaluated. And I suspect that's not far from the truth.

I suspect that you are not a teacher and do not fully understand the problem with evaluating teaching effectively. Observations can provide what the teacher is actually doing. In the legal profession, don't you have some control over what cases you accept? Would you want to have to accept every case that came in the door and be evaluated on how many you won?

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 15:41:39 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

I find the lack of responses to my pretty legitimate questions to be... telling?? But maybe I'm reading too much into that.

I also find it telling that CPS teacher have not had a strike in 25 years despite some pretty tough salary, class room size, hours, funding, and pension disputes. But what gets them out? A proposal for performance evaluations.

I'm sure they have been evaluated for decades; it is the method of evaluation. People sometimes make comments like teachers do not want to be evaluated--that is not the problem. Teachers want quality control and don't want bad teachers in the profession. It is how that is determined that is the problem. The sad thing is that the teachers that are fantastic at working with students with learning problems are sometimes afraid to take those classes on because of the test score evaluation. We need those teachers that have extraordinary patience and creativity to work with those students and need to encourage them rather than punishing them.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 18:14:51 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 10, 2012 18:09:29 GMT -5 sweettooth said:

I am talking about people who have responded about the short days and why don't teachers want to be evaluated since business does it. They don't always think about the difference between having a business that can decide on who to hire and can fire and accepting students where they are educationally and doing what you can with them. Business and teaching are not comparable in many ways, as you know, but there are many who continue to say that teachers don't want to be evaluated. Teachers just want to be evaluated based on things they can control, as you know.

Your analogy doesn't hold up though. Or it does, but not in the way you want it too. Students aren't the "employees," they are the clients. And teachers aren't the business owners, they are the employees. Right now, what you have is a situation where a group of clients (students and their parents) MUST pay for a certain business (CPS) regardless of whether they use it. Those who do use it largely don't have a choice about whether to use it (because those who DO have a choice send their kids to private school). So they must use that business.

Here's the analogy. You MUST buy your clothes from Macy's. Macy's clothes suck. You think that part of it might be because the people sewing the clothes aren't very good. However, the people doing the sewing are tell you they refuse to have their sewing evaluated. That is the business model analogy. Not "imagine if you had to hire every employee who applied." Effectively, I DO, because I have to pay for every CPS teacher regardless of whether I use them or whether they prove to be competent.

Are you comparing students to clothes sewn for Macy's? People to things?

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 18:14:51 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 10, 2012 18:09:29 GMT -5 sweettooth said:

I am talking about people who have responded about the short days and why don't teachers want to be evaluated since business does it. They don't always think about the difference between having a business that can decide on who to hire and can fire and accepting students where they are educationally and doing what you can with them. Business and teaching are not comparable in many ways, as you know, but there are many who continue to say that teachers don't want to be evaluated. Teachers just want to be evaluated based on things they can control, as you know.

Your analogy doesn't hold up though. Or it does, but not in the way you want it too. Students aren't the "employees," they are the clients. And teachers aren't the business owners, they are the employees. Right now, what you have is a situation where a group of clients (students and their parents) MUST pay for a certain business (CPS) regardless of whether they use it. Those who do use it largely don't have a choice about whether to use it (because those who DO have a choice send their kids to private school). So they must use that business.

Here's the analogy. You MUST buy your clothes from Macy's. Macy's clothes suck. You think that part of it might be because the people sewing the clothes aren't very good. However, the people doing the sewing are tell you they refuse to have their sewing evaluated. That is the business model analogy. Not "imagine if you had to hire every employee who applied." Effectively, I DO, because I have to pay for every CPS teacher regardless of whether I use them or whether they prove to be competent.

Also--whether I have children in a school district or not, that community is enriched by having an educated population (to whatever level is possible with each student)--I like having the police even if no one is breaking in my house. It is a part of the community. I want fire fighters and will pay for them whether or not my house has ever been on fire.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 18:07:58 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 10, 2012 18:03:47 GMT -5 sweettooth said:

This is the problem. Teachers have no control over who comes into the class. No control over what happens at home. Sometimes not a lot of control over behavior--depends on the administration and how supportive they are.

Imagine if businesses had to hire EVERYONE that applied. You are the supervisor of these people and your job evaluation, salary, and keeping your job depends on how they do. You can't fire them, unless they do something illegal or dangerous. Would you think that was fair?

About the "ridiculous" length of the school day--does anyone really think that is all of the work that is done by teachers? There is planning, grading, calling parents, etc. Most teachers I know bring work home and work several hours at night.

Do not EVEN go there. This is not a competition over who works harder. $52,000 for someone with a 4 year degree is an amazing salary even if they are working 60 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, which teachers aren't.

There needs to be a way to evaluate the effectiveness of teachers. Rahm has proposed one way. I'm not a huge fan of it. But I'm not seeing ANY alternative proposed by the CTU that would allow me to say, "Why don't we go with that?" What it really looks like to anyone standing on the outside is that teachers just don't want to be evaluated. And I suspect that's not far from the truth.

Should an oncologist be evaluated according to how many patients die? How many have another occurrence of cancer? Of course not. The doctor takes the patient in whatever health is there and does what she/he can.

[Deleted]

Okay so really, wah wah wah, I can't control every factor therefore I don't want to be evaluated at all?

You cannot be serious with that shit.

I used to work customer service for cingular (back when it was cingular anyway) and let me tell you, I couldn't control all those factors either. Didn't stop anyone from looking at my job performance.

Obviously, it's not the be all, end all. Testing shouldn't be the be all end all. But I can't deal with the idea that omigosh, yall, it's so hard to evaluate a teacher because she can't control things so howsabout we not evaluate at all.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2012 18:26:15 GMT -5 sweettooth said:

Should an oncologist be evaluated according to how many patients die? How many have another occurrence of cancer? Of course not. The doctor takes the patient in whatever health is there and does what she/he can.

Uhm yeah but at the same time, I'm preeeeetty sure all hospitals evaluate doctors nonetheless when deciding to keep them, fire them, increase their pay, etc.

They don't shrug and say, welp, people die so who the fuck cares how many croak under your watch.

[teflep]

Fallbride?

[rugbywife]

Has anyone ever done any research into how teachers are evaluated in countries where the education system is considered to be strong?

We aren't evaluated by anything other than our administrator's observations. Once every five years an administrator comes into to watch us teach two lessons (100 minute block each), this, in combination with what the admin already knows/sees (daily drop in, ex-curricular, leadership activities, Annual Learning Plans) makes up our evaluation. An administrator can take moves to have a teacher put under evaluation at any time within the 5 years though I believe but I can't find the language in the documents online (http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/teacher/appraise.html#forms)

It is pass fail, if you receive an 'unsatisfactory' you must have another evaluation within 60 school days. If you are found to be 'unsatisfactory' again (second time in a row), you are put under review and must have a 3rd evaluation within 120 school days. If you are found to be 'unsatisfactory' again the school board may move for your termination. So theoretically it never takes more than a year and a half to get a truly incompetent teacher terminated.

But none of it is based on testing, or student evaluations, or anything. I have heard that often after one unsatisfactory eval a teacher is often transferred to another school (at least in my board) and I hate that idea because I don't believe in dumping bad teachers onto other schools. But apparently the reasoning behind that (supported by both the union and management) is that it allows for a different teacher/principal relationship. That way neither side can claim it was 'personal'.

[Deleted]

Plus, look, every teacher in the building is dealing with the same shit. So please explain to me how we can't come up with some way to evaluate them as a whole?

[teflep]

Sept 10, 2012 19:11:16 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Plus, look, every teacher in the building is dealing with the same shit. So please explain to me how we can't come up with some way to evaluate them as a whole?

right now, that is making ayp, though with the waivers, this may no longer be case for many.

[Deleted]

sorry, tef, I was addressing fallbride . . . I mean whoever that is lol, not the situation as a whole or CPS in particular.

[teflep]

Sept 10, 2012 19:30:51 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

sorry, tef, I was addressing fallbride . . . I mean whoever that is lol, not the situation as a whole or CPS in particular.

well, ayp is what all schools use now to evaluate progress of the whole staff. The waivers take that out, replacing with different benchmarks.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 19:11:16 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Plus, look, every teacher in the building is dealing with the same shit. So please explain to me how we can't come up with some way to evaluate them as a whole?

Not every student is the same. In the same building you will have honors kids and students with an IQ of 60. Every class is different. That you and others think that is part of the problem.

I, for the record, do not advocate striking for money. I went to the teacher union page and am finding out quickly that there is a plan put forth by the teachers, based on research.

Here is a summary of some of the problems they address:

www.ctunet.com/quest-center/research/text/Deserve_summary.pdf

Here is a 46-page report of it: www.ctunet.com/blog/text/SCSD_Report-02-16-2012-1.pdf

The current plan doesn't sound that bad because it is based mainly on classroom observations, and no teacher can object to that, but I can see apprehension about increasing the % of the evaluation that comes from scores.

Here is a part I agree with:

How can Special Education teachers be evaluated on NWEA assessments when they are not modified to meet the student's IEP?
The position of CPS is that, except for the 1% of students who are eligible to take the Illinois Alternative Assessment (IAA), special education students will be required to take the same tests as other students, just as they are required to take the ISAT. The NWEA test that 3rd-8th graders take is supposed to be able to handle any necessary accommodations listed in the student’s IEP. The CTU negotiating team and individual teachers have repeatedly pointed out that this plan is unworkable, unfair and does not acknowledge the special needs of students with IEPs. Nevertheless, CPS has maintained their position.
www.ctunet.com/quest-center/research/teacher-evaluation/pera-faq

Here is what has been accomplished during negotiations, according to the site:

What did CTU accomplish in negotiations? .
CTU was able to push CPS on several issues. Our participation in the negotiations helped create a plan that is better for teachers than what CPS initially proposed. For example:

CPS initially proposed that student growth count for 45% of a teacher’s evaluation. They now plan to use 25% in 2012-13 and 2013-14. However, they do plan to move up to 40% by 2016-17.
Initially, CPS wanted to use student surveys as part of teacher evaluation starting next year. Now, they will pilot surveys in 2012-13, and not count them toward teacher evaluation, although they plan to use them as 10% of a teacher’s evaluation after that.
CPS wanted to use Explore, Plan, and ACT to measure high school student growth. Now they will pilot using these tests for evaluation in 2012-13, and not count them toward teacher evaluation but may use them in future years.
CPS initially wanted to evaluate every teacher every year. They will still do that, but in 2012-13, they will not evaluate tenured teachers who this year have superior or excellent ratings.
CPS wanted to make student growth part of the evaluation of non-classroom teachers. They will not do that in 2012-13 but will look for appropriate growth measures to use in subsequent years.
CPS wanted every observation to count for evaluation but CTU got them to allow the first observation next year to be a practice observation, unless the teacher wants it to count.
Return to top

What are CTU’s main disagreements with the CPS plan?
Many of the disagreements will still be discussed in contract negotiations, including:

number of classroom observations
use of unannounced observations
frequency of evaluation for tenured teachers with strong ratings
use of peer observers
teacher attendance as a factor in teacher evaluation
middle of the year evaluations (CTU objects to this attempt to accelerate the identification of Needs Improvement and Unsatisfactory teachers so that CPS can speed the process of professional development, remediation, and possible discharge.)
inadequacy of professional development time
lack of appeals process
In addition, we object to:.

teachers in non-tested subjects being evaluated on school-wide test scores
the five-year plan to increase the role of student test scores
the insufficient time given to plan for the new system.

Do the rest of the teachers on this board agree with having your job continuation and evaluation based on your students' scores? If so, I have said all I am going to say. I have things to do, and frankly, getting upset with being told that teachers have ridiculously short days, or are all dealing with the same shit, or don't want to be evaluated at all is not going to do my family any good as I deal with them tonight. I have pointed out how teaching is not a business and students are not widgets.

Re: customer service--you are evaluated on YOUR PART of the process--how well you interact with the customers. I don't think you are evaluated on things that you didn't have a part of. Evaluating your interaction with the customers is fair. Teachers being evaluated on classroom observations of their teaching is fair.

Re: Macy's clothes. I still disagree with comparing students and a product that is sewn. If you do compare them, should the sewers have evaluations lowered because the material they were given is not the highest quality when they had no control over that? They should be evaluated on the way they sewed the clothes.

I am out.

[Deleted]

I really hate that you're a teacher.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2012 18:49:32 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Has anyone ever done any research into how teachers are evaluated in countries where the education system is considered to be strong?

We aren't evaluated by anything other than our administrator's observations. Once every five years an administrator comes into to watch us teach two lessons (100 minute block each), this, in combination with what the admin already knows/sees (daily drop in, ex-curricular, leadership activities, Annual Learning Plans) makes up our evaluation. An administrator can take moves to have a teacher put under evaluation at any time within the 5 years though I believe but I can't find the language in the documents online (http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/teacher/appraise.html#forms)

It is pass fail, if you receive an 'unsatisfactory' you must have another evaluation within 60 school days. If you are found to be 'unsatisfactory' again (second time in a row), you are put under review and must have a 3rd evaluation within 120 school days. If you are found to be 'unsatisfactory' again the school board may move for your termination. So theoretically it never takes more than a year and a half to get a truly incompetent teacher terminated.

But none of it is based on testing, or student evaluations, or anything. I have heard that often after one unsatisfactory eval a teacher is often transferred to another school (at least in my board) and I hate that idea because I don't believe in dumping bad teachers onto other schools. But apparently the reasoning behind that (supported by both the union and management) is that it allows for a different teacher/principal relationship. That way neither side can claim it was 'personal'.

I haven't paid enough attention as to why the Ontario teachers are currently pissed off - I do know a strike was averted though.

What was the issue? Something about contracts?

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 19:42:05 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I really hate that you're a teacher.

I was clicking out and saw this. Tried not to respond but this sounds like the people who say they feel sorry for someone's husband.

If you think it is bad that a teacher recognizes that all students are different, then ok.

[sweettooth]

Sept 10, 2012 18:59:46 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Sept 10, 2012 18:36:07 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

Uhm yeah but at the same time, I'm preeeeetty sure all hospitals evaluate doctors nonetheless when deciding to keep them, fire them, increase their pay, etc.

They don't shrug and say, welp, people die so who the fuck cares how many croak under your watch.

In a related issue, doctors can be sued, they have a standard of care they have to abide by, they can be reported to the IDPR, they are tested to within an inch of their life (and regularly at that). I can't really think of a profession OTHER than doctors that are so regularly and rigorously evaluated.

Again--was getting out, tried not to respond, but look at what I asked--I asked if it would be fair for them to be evaluated BASED ON WHETHER THEIR PATIENTS DIED OR LIVED. That is what would be unfair. Of course they get evaluated. I didn't say they didn't. It is the method of evaluation that is the question.

[sweettooth]

This time I am logging off, getting out, and not reading the end comments.

I do have to say this, though. I am all for teachers being evaluated. Most teachers are also. Can we acknowledge that my concerns are not with being evaluated. It is HOW the evaluations are done. I would not want any other profession or career to be evaluated unfairly either.

[rugbywife]

Sept 10, 2012 19:50:18 GMT -5 @lauriergirl28 said:

Sept 10, 2012 18:49:32 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Has anyone ever done any research into how teachers are evaluated in countries where the education system is considered to be strong?

We aren't evaluated by anything other than our administrator's observations. Once every five years an administrator comes into to watch us teach two lessons (100 minute block each), this, in combination with what the admin already knows/sees (daily drop in, ex-curricular, leadership activities, Annual Learning Plans) makes up our evaluation. An administrator can take moves to have a teacher put under evaluation at any time within the 5 years though I believe but I can't find the language in the documents online (http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/teacher/appraise.html#forms)

It is pass fail, if you receive an 'unsatisfactory' you must have another evaluation within 60 school days. If you are found to be 'unsatisfactory' again (second time in a row), you are put under review and must have a 3rd evaluation within 120 school days. If you are found to be 'unsatisfactory' again the school board may move for your termination. So theoretically it never takes more than a year and a half to get a truly incompetent teacher terminated.

But none of it is based on testing, or student evaluations, or anything. I have heard that often after one unsatisfactory eval a teacher is often transferred to another school (at least in my board) and I hate that idea because I don't believe in dumping bad teachers onto other schools. But apparently the reasoning behind that (supported by both the union and management) is that it allows for a different teacher/principal relationship. That way neither side can claim it was 'personal'.

I haven't paid enough attention as to why the Ontario teachers are currently pissed off - I do know a strike was averted though.

What was the issue? Something about contracts?

Oh, it's actually mostly about stripping collective bargaining rights. The government is essentially taking away our right to bargain. Their definition of 'bargaining' is giving us their offer and saying that's it, no actual bargaining. And they are circumventing the Ontario Labour Relations Act by going straight to the Legislature. In terms of sticking points in the offer, the strips to our contract are fairly huge. The media keeps portraying it as us not wanting a pay freeze. That's not what it is at all but it's hard to argue with the general public about anything related to teaching, they mostly think we are over paid and underworked. I have given up trying to provide my perspective.

[Deleted]

I'm not a fan of teachers with no common sense, logic, nuance, or ability to grasp simple concepts like analogy.

I simply cannot fathom based on your responses that you respond well to questions from parents, much less criticism.

So as cliched as it is, yeah, I'm sorry you're a teacher.

[eclaires]

I AM NOT READING ANYMORE OF THIS LOGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

END OF REPLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

::gigglesnort::

SBP said shank.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2012 20:05:15 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I AM NOT READING ANYMORE OF THIS LOGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

END OF REPLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

I SAW THIS AS I WAS SKIPPING HOME, MY KICKBALL UNDER MY ARMS AND I WAS COMPELLED, NAY COERCED INTO REPLYING ONE MORE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKK!

YEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fin

[teflep]

Praxis is for initial cert or adding endorsements, not for ongoing Evals.