I need a traditional service too. I tried a non-denominational church prior to meeting my H but just couldn't feel comfortable with how informal it all felt. I googled around thanks to the suggestions in here and found an Episcopal church near our house that seems to be very focused on love and acceptance as its message. There was also a Catholic church that showed up on one of the lists (!!!!). I'm intrigued.
Do I just show up one Sunday with the family in tow? Every church I've ever tried out has been as a guest of someone else.
If you're accustomed to the Catholic service, you'd probably be comfortable at an Episcopal or Lutheran (ELCA) service. The liturgy is similar, but they are both much more socially liberal.
Orange County has a huge German Lutheran/ LCMS presence. Throw a rock in any direction, and you'll hit a LCMS church, school, high school (there's two large ones), and a Concordia University. I think we're the largest grouping outside the Midwest. It's a weird mix of Orange County politically purple people, despite belonging to a synod that really needs to get with the times.
I was born into it, my family members were pioneers here, so I'm not leaving LCMS. Side note, I only feel comfortable in strict Catholic/ Jesuit, or Presbyterian environments for consistent weekly worship. However, since I have some vocal pull, I'm committed to doing the work of changing the church from with in. It's made huge strides in other aspects of social justice, so I have to believe that, at least in our tiny segment of SoCal, we'll be able to make the same level of changes on the gay rights and inclusiveness front.
Are Presbyterian and Lutheran services very similar to the Catholic Mass?
We attend a Catholic church now. My DH is Catholic, our girls are baptized Catholic and I went to Catholic high school -- after four years of religion classes, I am very familiar with it. I considered converting several times, but I have too many differences with the church's philosophy to feel comfortable standing up and pledging to it. Our current congregation is both huge and pretty conservative, focused on social issues more than social justice. And after a decade-plus, it is starting to really get to me that I can't participate fully in the Eucharist. I never thought that would be something I miss so much, but it is.
I also miss the Protestant music/traditional hymns, extended sermons and more prominent role for women that I found as a Methodist. But I don't think I'm going to get my DH to be okay with Methodism/regular attendance there. We both enjoy traditional services (as opposed to the more free-form, super-upbeat-modern-music evangelical type). It would be really nice to find something that would be sort of midway point, but I haven't attended Lutheran services since I was a small child (was baptized Lutheran) and I know nothing about the Presbyterian church/services.
From my experience, LCMS Lutheran is VERY close to a Catholic mass.
ETA: In my thoughts of switching, I've considered Episcopalian. I think it's also close to Catholic mass. I have a feeling that is where I will eventually end up.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
If you're accustomed to the Catholic service, you'd probably be comfortable at an Episcopal or Lutheran (ELCA) service. The liturgy is similar, but they are both much more socially liberal.
#notalllutherans. Seriously. LCMS is about as conservative as you can get. Possibly more than Catholic.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
If you're accustomed to the Catholic service, you'd probably be comfortable at an Episcopal or Lutheran (ELCA) service. The liturgy is similar, but they are both much more socially liberal.
#notalllutherans. Seriously. LCMS is about as conservative as you can get. Possibly more than Catholic.
I'm going to second the suggestion of trying an Episcopal church. I'm a cradle Episcopalian and I just can't get comfortable anywhere else because the traditional High Church liturgy is so comforting to me. I have a lot of friends at church who were either raised Catholic but wanted a more progressive church or one spouse was Catholic and the other was not and they compromised by joining the Episcopalians. Each congregation is different but on the whole the denomination is very socially liberal and welcoming to everyone.
I'm really torn about church right now. I miss it because I need the community right now and I desperately need my hour of quiet every week where I can listen, think, and feel like a grown up without anyone making demand on me for a change. I'd love to start going back to church since our new rector has really been trying to steer our congregation to be more aware of and involved in social justice issues but I think he's kind of an ass. He seems to be very into changing things up at the church for the sake of making changes and I've gotten a lot of shade from him and other staff in the Children's Ministry over my son so I just don't feel comfortable attending anymore. DH and DS refuse to go anymore but there's not another church in the area that meets all my requirements so it looks like we're going to be unchurched for a long time. This frustrates me a lot because we live in a socially and politically conservative area and I don't want him getting the message on the back of the school bus.
Are Presbyterian and Lutheran services very similar to the Catholic Mass?
We attend a Catholic church now. My DH is Catholic, our girls are baptized Catholic and I went to Catholic high school -- after four years of religion classes, I am very familiar with it. I considered converting several times, but I have too many differences with the church's philosophy to feel comfortable standing up and pledging to it. Our current congregation is both huge and pretty conservative, focused on social issues more than social justice. And after a decade-plus, it is starting to really get to me that I can't participate fully in the Eucharist. I never thought that would be something I miss so much, but it is.
I also miss the Protestant music/traditional hymns, extended sermons and more prominent role for women that I found as a Methodist. But I don't think I'm going to get my DH to be okay with Methodism/regular attendance there. We both enjoy traditional services (as opposed to the more free-form, super-upbeat-modern-music evangelical type). It would be really nice to find something that would be sort of midway point, but I haven't attended Lutheran services since I was a small child (was baptized Lutheran) and I know nothing about the Presbyterian church/services.
Traditional LCMS ( I'm not confortable with ELCA or WELS style) services are almost identical to Catholic Mass with the exception of a few words of the Lord's Prayer, and that everyone is welcome to take the bread and wine at communion. The Kyrie, Cantors, Liturgy, Creeds, Church Layout, Homily/Message, Blessings, and Prayers are almost the same. When we travel, attend church with friends, or when we are in an unfamiliar area, I tend to pop into Catholic mass. I also like attending Spanish mass a few times a year.
Traditional Presbyterian churches, again depending on the denomination, aren't as identical or interchangeable as Lutheran and Catholic services, but they are close enough that my heart doesn't start racing in a panic.
This was not true at the Missouri synod lutheran church I attended briefly as an adolescent. In order to receive communion at this particular Missouri Synod Lutheran church you had to be a member of that church, or get prior approval from the pastor by being a member of another LCMS. They do not have an open communion practice, and as a UMC clergy person I would not be welcome to take communion at a LCMS church.
Here's the info I found
Q: Being raised in the LCMS, I was surprised today when I was visiting a LCMS church that had a pamphlet explaining their beliefs about Communion. It went on to say that if the visitor believed these things also then they could commune at that church. I thought that only LCMS members could commune at LCMS churches. Has this changed?
A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod has never understood or applied the historic practice of close[d] Communion in such a way as to mean that only LCMS members are permitted to commune at LCMS altars. The official position of the Synod is that not only are members of other Lutheran churches with whom we are in altar and pulpit fellowship invited to commune with us, but also that in certain extraordinary cases of pastoral care and in emergencies members of churches not in fellowship with us may be given Communion. The Synod stated, for example, in 1986 "that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod continue to abide by the practice of close Communion, which includes the necessity of exercising responsible pastoral care in extraordinary situations and circumstances" (1986 Res. 3-08 "To Maintain Practice of Close Communion").
Orange County has a huge German Lutheran/ LCMS presence. Throw a rock in any direction, and you'll hit a LCMS church, school, high school (there's two large ones), and a Concordia University. I think we're the largest grouping outside the Midwest. It's a weird mix of Orange County politically purple people, despite belonging to a synod that really needs to get with the times.
I was born into it, my family members were pioneers here, so I'm not leaving LCMS. Side note, I only feel comfortable in strict Catholic/ Jesuit, or Presbyterian environments for consistent weekly worship. However, since I have some vocal pull, I'm committed to doing the work of changing the church from with in. It's made huge strides in other aspects of social justice, so I have to believe that, at least in our tiny segment of SoCal, we'll be able to make the same level of changes on the gay rights and inclusiveness front.
BIG ditto from me on that.
Ditto to everything you all have said from me too! Signed, Another liberal LCMS member.
Traditional LCMS ( I'm not confortable with ELCA or WELS style) services are almost identical to Catholic Mass with the exception of a few words of the Lord's Prayer, and that everyone is welcome to take the bread and wine at communion. The Kyrie, Cantors, Liturgy, Creeds, Church Layout, Homily/Message, Blessings, and Prayers are almost the same. When we travel, attend church with friends, or when we are in an unfamiliar area, I tend to pop into Catholic mass. I also like attending Spanish mass a few times a year.
Traditional Presbyterian churches, again depending on the denomination, aren't as identical or interchangeable as Lutheran and Catholic services, but they are close enough that my heart doesn't start racing in a panic.
This was not true at the Missouri synod lutheran church I attended briefly as an adolescent. In order to receive communion at this particular Missouri Synod Lutheran church you had to be a member of that church, or get prior approval from the pastor by being a member of another LCMS. They do not have an open communion practice, and as a UMC clergy person I would not be welcome to take communion at a LCMS church.
Here's the info I found
Q: Being raised in the LCMS, I was surprised today when I was visiting a LCMS church that had a pamphlet explaining their beliefs about Communion. It went on to say that if the visitor believed these things also then they could commune at that church. I thought that only LCMS members could commune at LCMS churches. Has this changed?
A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod has never understood or applied the historic practice of close[d] Communion in such a way as to mean that only LCMS members are permitted to commune at LCMS altars. The official position of the Synod is that not only are members of other Lutheran churches with whom we are in altar and pulpit fellowship invited to commune with us, but also that in certain extraordinary cases of pastoral care and in emergencies members of churches not in fellowship with us may be given Communion. The Synod stated, for example, in 1986 "that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod continue to abide by the practice of close Communion, which includes the necessity of exercising responsible pastoral care in extraordinary situations and circumstances" (1986 Res. 3-08 "To Maintain Practice of Close Communion").
Sessy--this has been the subject of much debate lately! LCMS churches are supposed to practice "close communion", which is essentially the Pastor ensuring that those who are communing understand what it means. However, a lot of Pastors and/or congregations were enforcing CLOSED communion instead (only "vetted" LCMS members were allowed to partake). Churches/Pastors practicing closed communion rather than close communion are wrong, point blank. I can say with 100% certainty that you'd be welcome to commune at my LCMS church any time.
@kirkette, and berrysweet, interesting thanks for the additional info. I do know even from my own denomination so much is pastor and church dependent and that can make a huge difference in practice.
Traditional LCMS ( I'm not confortable with ELCA or WELS style) services are almost identical to Catholic Mass with the exception of a few words of the Lord's Prayer, and that everyone is welcome to take the bread and wine at communion. The Kyrie, Cantors, Liturgy, Creeds, Church Layout, Homily/Message, Blessings, and Prayers are almost the same. When we travel, attend church with friends, or when we are in an unfamiliar area, I tend to pop into Catholic mass. I also like attending Spanish mass a few times a year.
Traditional Presbyterian churches, again depending on the denomination, aren't as identical or interchangeable as Lutheran and Catholic services, but they are close enough that my heart doesn't start racing in a panic.
This was not true at the Missouri synod lutheran church I attended briefly as an adolescent. In order to receive communion at this particular Missouri Synod Lutheran church you had to be a member of that church, or get prior approval from the pastor by being a member of another LCMS. They do not have an open communion practice, and as a UMC clergy person I would not be welcome to take communion at a LCMS church.
Here's the info I found
Q: Being raised in the LCMS, I was surprised today when I was visiting a LCMS church that had a pamphlet explaining their beliefs about Communion. It went on to say that if the visitor believed these things also then they could commune at that church. I thought that only LCMS members could commune at LCMS churches. Has this changed?
A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod has never understood or applied the historic practice of close[d] Communion in such a way as to mean that only LCMS members are permitted to commune at LCMS altars. The official position of the Synod is that not only are members of other Lutheran churches with whom we are in altar and pulpit fellowship invited to commune with us, but also that in certain extraordinary cases of pastoral care and in emergencies members of churches not in fellowship with us may be given Communion. The Synod stated, for example, in 1986 "that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod continue to abide by the practice of close Communion, which includes the necessity of exercising responsible pastoral care in extraordinary situations and circumstances" (1986 Res. 3-08 "To Maintain Practice of Close Communion").
We have about 10 ministers at my church. 9 of them are retired and work part time, 1 "head" pastor who is full time. About 20 years ago, we had a minister there who was really big on that rule. He ended up leaving because of the difference of opinion with our head pastor at the time.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
That's absolutely the case sessy. It depends a bit on the president of the synod as well. I'm not a fan of our current president (I find him to be intentionally inflammatory), but there are lots of individual congregations that don't necessarily take Harrison's word as gospel (pun intended) that are working to create change from the bottom up.
The Presbyterian church (PCUSA) has the network of "more light" churches (google it, there is a list) that are open and affirming but even PCUSA churches that are not more light can be fairly progressive. In general though, most churches have a mission statement of some sort and you can read between the lines to figure out a lot. It's a bit of an acquired skill though as you learn the issues.
My mother is a PCUSA pastor and I grew up in the church. I haven't spent a lot of time in it over the last 5 years or so, but lately i've been sporadically attending the PCUSA church in my city and its really great. It's racially and socio-economically diverse (for my area), they do progressive outreach like had a tent out at the pride parade/rally in the summer, do good works in the city like volunteer for the food bank, and I've been pretty impressed.
I didn't go today but I'm making an effort to go more. The congregation is very welcoming.
My PCUSA church is also very focused on social justice, and makes a point to serve not just its own congregation, but the greater community that it's a part of. We're partnered with several ecumenical and non-denominational organizations in the area to serve the homeless, low-income households, environmental stewardship, etc.
On Sundays, our pastors are not shy about calling for action in response to whatever happened in the news that week (though they never call out Trump by name, it's fairly obvious who they're talking about) and are pretty liberal. The Sunday after the election, the sermon was titled "Don't be Afraid; Speak Up!" and quoted Cory Booker, and the associate pastor was wearing a rainbow stole. This week's adult education class was watching the Christmas episode of My So-Called Life, and a discussion of how helping others is not always comfortable for us, but is something we're called to do.
I think we've definitely seen more people slipping into the back as services start lately, and more new faces at our non-worship events.
I've also been thinking about going to church. I'm an atheist, but I could really use that sense of community. There's a UU church near me that is very active in social issues and I might try there.
I feel the same way. I drive by the UU church every day, and they have a huge Black Lives Matter banner that's been vandalized a few times, but they keep putting it back up and donating money when it happens. I also follow them on facebook and it seems like a place I'd be comfortable.
I was raised Catholic but it's just too conservative for me, especially here in the South. I've tried UU but it's not my speed either. Do I just check out websites and look for clues?
There is a Reform Catholic Church. I haven't read much about them, and can't figure out how to locate a church/mass from their website.
I am Catholic and feel very lucky/blessed to have found a pretty open minded parish with a priest who DGAF about what the higher ups in the archdiocese says.
I couldn't set foot in church after the election. I "had church" alone in my reading room.
I have been back to church, but this is how I feel too. I am ELCA, a pretty progressive church. The number of people from my church who publicly supported Trump made me sick. Some of my formerly favorite people.
Formerly very serious about it. My mom is very change from within about the church but I can't get with the social conservatism.
I will definitely plug the Episcopal church again.
The service is very similar to the Catholic service - in fact, the Episcopal church describes itself as via media (the middle way) because it's a little Catholic and a little Protestant - but it's much more socially liberal. We ordain women and have had a female presiding bishop. We ordain gay people - apparently almost half of the priests in the Diocese of Chicago are openly gay.
Thanks wambam for posting that link. I live in a pretty conservative area, and I found a United Church of Christ that has a rainbow right on their main webpage and makes frequent references to fighting against social injustices.
The Episcopal church I was looking at is also listed on the site, so I have at least two churches I can check out.
Thanks wambam for posting that link. I live in a pretty conservative area, and I found a United Church of Christ that has a rainbow right on their main webpage and makes frequent references to fighting against social injustices.
The Episcopal church I was looking at is also listed on the site, so I have at least two churches I can check out.
It's obviously not foolproof, but IME, if a church is LGBT affirming they're probably in the right track about other issues.
I want to stress how different PCUSA and PCA are. I think people who didn't grow up in one of them might think they're similar. PCA doesn't allow women to be ordained, so they're in no positions of leadership. They're often biblical literalists, young earth creationists, and strict calvinists. Definitely anti-gay and anti-choice, at least from the services I've attended and conversations I've had with friends and even pastors.
PCUSA generally has a traditional service structure with old hymns (the church I grew up in does have a contemporary service, too), but biblical interpretations are much less literal. For instance, when I got confirmed, an elder asked me why PCUSA, and I said because we could believe parts of the bible, like noah and the flood, weren't literal documents of history. Confirmed!
Sermons were often topical and thought provoking with biblical support rather than bible study. Ministers kind of have free reign, so it's definitely congregation dependent. Even in the late 80s, my minister did a full sermon on HIV/AIDS. We were really the only kids there (my dad worked the service), but I remember him using no euphemisms. It was part public PSA here are the facts and yes I'll say vaginal from the pulpet and part support our neighbors as the church was in a community with a large gay population
I've been impressed with episcopalian commitment to lgbtq equality.
I'm not sure if PCUSA allows openly gay members to be ordained now. There was a fuss in the church I grew up in a few years ago when a long standing openly gay member, which was completely accepted, was nominated to be a deacon, and the presbytery (and members of the congregation) denied him. Quite a few left over that. A former minister was defrocked after he came out.
Sorry for the book. I loved it for the community, but I'd never go back as an atheist. Many of my friends from there are now atheists, incidentally. So, for believers it might be really good. For those wanting a religious community but not necessarily faith in particular scripture, UCC and UU, although congregations and services vary widely. Also, I've found really good community in atheist groups (if that's the way you lean).
Back to me - it looks like the local FUMC (first united methodist church) is recognized as a Reconciling ministry (meaning they are LGBTQ friendly and will perform marriages for all). My previous church in the next town over was working towards this, but hadn't made the leap in 5 years. I think I'll check them out soon.
I want to stress how different PCUSA and PCA are. I think people who didn't grow up in one of them might think they're similar. PCA doesn't allow women to be ordained, so they're in no positions of leadership. They're often biblical literalists, young earth creationists, and strict calvinists. Definitely anti-gay and anti-choice, at least from the services I've attended and conversations I've had with friends and even pastors.
PCUSA generally has a traditional service structure with old hymns (the church I grew up in does have a contemporary service, too), but biblical interpretations are much less literal. For instance, when I got confirmed, an elder asked me why PCUSA, and I said because we could believe parts of the bible, like noah and the flood, weren't literal documents of history. Confirmed!
Sermons were often topical and thought provoking with biblical support rather than bible study. Ministers kind of have free reign, so it's definitely congregation dependent. Even in the late 80s, my minister did a full sermon on HIV/AIDS. We were really the only kids there (my dad worked the service), but I remember him using no euphemisms. It was part public PSA here are the facts and yes I'll say vaginal from the pulpet and part support our neighbors as the church was in a community with a large gay population
I've been impressed with episcopalian commitment to lgbtq equality.
I'm not sure if PCUSA allows openly gay members to be ordained now. There was a fuss in the church I grew up in a few years ago when a long standing openly gay member, which was completely accepted, was nominated to be a deacon, and the presbytery (and members of the congregation) denied him. Quite a few left over that. A former minister was defrocked after he came out.
Sorry for the book. I loved it for the community, but I'd never go back as an atheist. Many of my friends from there are now atheists, incidentally. So, for believers it might be really good. For those wanting a religious community but not necessarily faith in particular scripture, UCC and UU, although congregations and services vary widely. Also, I've found really good community in atheist groups (if that's the way you lean).
The first openly gay PC(USA) minister was ordained in 2010, and in 2013 a transgender man was named head of the More Light Presbyterians.
The PC(USA) church I attend is small, but very diverse. The pastor's sermon last week was about the difference between tolerating and affirming our differences. I love it there.
I want to stress how different PCUSA and PCA are. I think people who didn't grow up in one of them might think they're similar. PCA doesn't allow women to be ordained, so they're in no positions of leadership. They're often biblical literalists, young earth creationists, and strict calvinists. Definitely anti-gay and anti-choice, at least from the services I've attended and conversations I've had with friends and even pastors.
PCUSA generally has a traditional service structure with old hymns (the church I grew up in does have a contemporary service, too), but biblical interpretations are much less literal. For instance, when I got confirmed, an elder asked me why PCUSA, and I said because we could believe parts of the bible, like noah and the flood, weren't literal documents of history. Confirmed!
Sermons were often topical and thought provoking with biblical support rather than bible study. Ministers kind of have free reign, so it's definitely congregation dependent. Even in the late 80s, my minister did a full sermon on HIV/AIDS. We were really the only kids there (my dad worked the service), but I remember him using no euphemisms. It was part public PSA here are the facts and yes I'll say vaginal from the pulpet and part support our neighbors as the church was in a community with a large gay population
I've been impressed with episcopalian commitment to lgbtq equality.
I'm not sure if PCUSA allows openly gay members to be ordained now. There was a fuss in the church I grew up in a few years ago when a long standing openly gay member, which was completely accepted, was nominated to be a deacon, and the presbytery (and members of the congregation) denied him. Quite a few left over that. A former minister was defrocked after he came out.
Sorry for the book. I loved it for the community, but I'd never go back as an atheist. Many of my friends from there are now atheists, incidentally. So, for believers it might be really good. For those wanting a religious community but not necessarily faith in particular scripture, UCC and UU, although congregations and services vary widely. Also, I've found really good community in atheist groups (if that's the way you lean).
Sorry for quoting this whole thing but I'm on mobile. PCUSA does ordain gay and lesbian ministers starting in 2009. More recently (a few year ago- I can't remember) there was a major change that allowed same sex marriage.
Post by LoveTrains on Dec 12, 2016 21:14:37 GMT -5
When I was in high school (in the '90s), they were debating whether they should ordain openly gay ministers in PCUSA but it took a while for everyone to come around and get on board.
The other thing is that congregations do vary even within PCUSA, and some areas and congregations are more liberal.
In regards to gay marriage, it is up to the individual congregation and pastor to decide if they want to allow those ceremonies in their church and if the pastor wants to perform them. So its a local decision. There is a schism that is building, though....will be interesting to see how it plays out.
And I'm so glad that we started talking about the difference between PCA and PCUSA. I used to have these very nice neighbors and they were very religious. Then they told me they were Presbyterian and I was like awesome, I will go to church with you some time. And we got invited to their kid's baptism. And then I was REALLY surprised when it was a PCA church and not a PCUSA church. I was like this at the church: