UPDATED Potty Training - Older/Stubborn children only

[bdubs419]

I am going to preface by saying that my 4.5 year old is NOT a typical child when it comes to potty training so I am really looking for advice from people in similar situations only.

He is at a school where they introduce the potty at 2 years old. He went through phases of trying, not trying, trying again... and now for months he has refused to try at all. We have bribed him with everything imaginable, done sticker charts, let him pick out his own underwear, attempted all different methods of potty training. Through our probably 2ish years of trying to get him to use the potty he has literally NEVER actually had pee come out. Even during the phases that he was trying, he would sit and push and push and nothing would come out.  Awhile back, we attempted the 3 day method, which turned into approximately 2 weeks of accident after accident after accident. He just NEVER got it. He now associates underwear/potty training in a very negative light.  He cries hysterically when you even bring up the subject.

At this point he has now been held back in his preschool classroom multiple times since he needs to be potty trained to be in the "older" preschool classroom. He is also one year away from Kindergarten. He cries when I even mention Kindergarten and says he never wants to go there because he has to wear underwear.

Meanwhile, I have a 2 year old who GETS it. He uses the potty multiple times everyday and the typical "bribes" work for him.   It was actually refreshing to see this because I always wondered what the heck I was doing wrong and was it me? I would tell other parents our "story" and all I would get is blank stares like they just don't understand... and would just say "well just try this! haven't you tried this?". Yes, at this point we have tried it ALL.

I recently met with his doctor and he is also out of ideas. He suggested that we just completely back off entirely. Put no pressure on him. He said that potty training is something that he needs to CHOOSE to be a part of and that obviously we cannot force him into anything. He mentioned that by the fall time if we haven't seen any improvement/and or interest that we should maybe see a child psychologist.

Has anyone here ever gone through anything similar/ Reached this point?

Also, my assumption is that is most likely an emotional issue for him but I guess I don't know that for sure.  It could be medical.... but he obviously has no issues going in his pull ups.

[countthestars]

My DD turned 4 in July and I could have written your post (except that my almost 2 year old isn't there yet). If nothing else, I hope that it is comforting to know you aren't alone - it is for me! DD is extremely stubborn and has declared that she will not use the potty. No bribe interests her and she cares zero about the fact that she's the only 4 year old still in pull ups (she literally said "it's just who I am. I like diapers" last week).

My pedi wants me to just keep the pull up off until she starts using the potty, but last time I tried that she screamed and cried and held it in, so I'm not doing that again. When I did put the pull up on, it took a while for her brain to tell her body it was ok to pee.

DD is an anxious child and has always had some sensory issues. We spoke with a child therapist about her anxiety/sensory stuff a year and a half ago but not specifically about potty training. I'm considering calling him again.

[dochas]

Do you still have the 3 day method book? I remember something in there about backing off entirely like your doctor recommended. I can't remember exactly what it was, but maybe there is advice about how long to back off and how to start again?

[isabel]

You can completely ignore me, but will he change himself? Like if he pees, will he go get a new pull up and change into a clean one? If he will, I'm wondering if that could be a segue into him getting annoyed with having change his own pull up and might lead to more interest in using the toilet.

[faith194]

DS was pooped trained from 15-26 months(he would sign potty and we'd sit him on the potty-his idea, nothing we trained him to do). He was then hospitalized and stopped pooping in the potty. Until he was 6 and a half!!!!!!! I will say he pee trained early(two and a half or so, although he still requires nighttime underwear for nighttime most nights).

We were so frustrated with the poop thing-he start d withholding and it was hell. No amount of rewards or children's books made a lick of difference.

At five he started to see a psychologist and she made us feel so much better. This is such a taboo subject. She gave us some tricks, and most of them did not work. The most important thing is to back off and make him feel like it is okay. We were convinced he would never do it. He did need to take charge in putting on his own pull up and cleaning himself.,he also had to work up to, dumping his poop(he said he was afraid of the kerplunk sound),

This past February, he was severely back up. We had to do a clean out protocol. We told him he could not use a pull up. It was a battle for two days, but something clicked! He poops on the potty at school and at home(out and about is still a no-go). It is absolutely amazing!!!

Good luck! Oh Crap, Potty Training is a great read!!

[longtimenopost]

Just commiserating. A (5 in January) will pee on the potty but will only poop in her diaper. She holds it until naptime or bedtime when she gets a diaper because she is still in a crib. I don't know what to do about it because I don't think she's ready to be night pee-trained so even if we got rid of the crib she'd still have a diaper and hold it all day long. She's incredibly stubborn.

[hocus2]

My older child was suborn. Given where you're at I'd possibly inquire about an x-ray to see if there is some sort of blockage. It can cause issues with poop(getting it out, but also not being able to control it) and with pee as well since you bladder gets squeezed by a softball or bigger blockage.

Once you determine that there isn't a health issue then I'd step back, set a date when the underwear go away and then do a cold turkey switch. He's 4.5 so he can probably pick up in a day or two if he buys into what you're doing. You could do a big bride or small bribes, but I might skip it. We told my daughter that she needed to train before a certain age because it was a house rule. We gave her a softener to ensure she didn't get blocked up (which was an issue) and she figured it out.

[stephm0188]

My son was close to 4. We backed off for awhile, and then approached it from another angle. I didn't say a word to about him or diapers or going potty. He'd heard it all.

I did start rewarding myself, though. Everytime I went, I got a sticker. Everytime my husband went, he got a sticker. We never pressured him or said anything like "You can have a sticker, too, if you go." He did't care about stickers the first time around.


He did care when he was the only one not getting them, though. I think he finally decide to go just as a "SEE, I can do it, too, big deal" kind of thing. The first time he went Ididn't give him that big "YAY!" because he would have backed off. It was more of a "You did?! No way. Really? Okay, come pick out a sticker. I have FIVE stickers, see?" He couldn't let me win I wasn't rewarding him. He was trying to compete with me. That was his currency. I just had to find it.

Potty trained in three days after that with zero accidents. It was a control thing for him, for sure.

[scribellesam]

My older son has SPD and I felt like this affected his potty training. It took us a little over a year to get him fully trained, which happened just after his fourth birthday. Generally, we bribed the hell out of him (at one point, he got a new Matchbox car every single time he even peed), and also backed off when he was getting stressed. For example, I taught him to ask for a pull-up when he needed to poop rather than pressuring him to go in the toilet. This helped him to realize and act when he needed to go without forcing him out of diapers.

I also second the recommendation to look into further potential medical or psychological reasons behind his resistance. All the kids I know who trained at 4 or later had underlying issues (spectrum, SPD, blockage, etc.)

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 8:28:14 GMT -5 countthestars said:

My DD turned 4 in July and I could have written your post (except that my almost 2 year old isn't there yet). If nothing else, I hope that it is comforting to know you aren't alone - it is for me! DD is extremely stubborn and has declared that she will not use the potty. No bribe interests her and she cares zero about the fact that she's the only 4 year old still in pull ups (she literally said "it's just who I am. I like diapers" last week).

My pedi wants me to just keep the pull up off until she starts using the potty, but last time I tried that she screamed and cried and held it in, so I'm not doing that again. When I did put the pull up on, it took a while for her brain to tell her body it was ok to pee.

DD is an anxious child and has always had some sensory issues. We spoke with a child therapist about her anxiety/sensory stuff a year and a half ago but not specifically about potty training. I'm considering calling him again.

Thanks, this really does help to hear I am not alone

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 8:32:04 GMT -5 dochas said:

Do you still have the 3 day method book? I remember something in there about backing off entirely like your doctor recommended. I can't remember exactly what it was, but maybe there is advice about how long to back off and how to start again?

I know I do somewhere, problem is (which I should have been clear to mention) is that basically we have been backing off for 6+ months now with no improvement whatsoever.

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 8:50:42 GMT -5 isabel said:

You can completely ignore me, but will he change himself? Like if he pees, will he go get a new pull up and change into a clean one? If he will, I'm wondering if that could be a segue into him getting annoyed with having change his own pull up and might lead to more interest in using the toilet.

A little bit of both.  I believe he always changes himself at school (only pee). He always poops at night time and my husband actually often makes him change himself and he literally makes him get in the bathtub to do it and makes him wipe himself. I will admit though that we don't ALWAYS do this, because its such a hassle for ourselves too and by the end of the night we are beat....

But yes I was hoping that he would get sick of having to change himself but it doesn't really bother him unfortunately!

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 10:32:19 GMT -5 faith194 said:

DS was pooped trained from 15-26 months(he would sign potty and we'd sit him on the potty-his idea, nothing we trained him to do). He was then hospitalized and stopped pooping in the potty. Until he was 6 and a half!!!!!!! I will say he pee trained early(two and a half or so, although he still requires nighttime underwear for nighttime most nights).

We were so frustrated with the poop thing-he start d withholding and it was hell. No amount of rewards or children's books made a lick of difference.

At five he started to see a psychologist and she made us feel so much better. This is such a taboo subject. She gave us some tricks, and most of them did not work. The most important thing is to back off and make him feel like it is okay. We were convinced he would never do it. He did need to take charge in putting on his own pull up and cleaning himself.,he also had to work up to, dumping his poop(he said he was afraid of the kerplunk sound),

This past February, he was severely back up. We had to do a clean out protocol. We told him he could not use a pull up. It was a battle for two days, but something clicked! He poops on the potty at school and at home(out and about is still a no-go). It is absolutely amazing!!!

Good luck! Oh Crap, Potty Training is a great read!!

Thanks.  I do think it may be worth while to see a psychologist.  I just know that he is a difficult child (with respect to potty training AND just life) so it may help to get some insight.  My husband and I are constantly questioning his behavior and wondering what is normal?

[Mrs.flang]

stephm0188, I'm no where near the potty training phase but I've never heard of this method before and I think it's genius!

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 10:39:36 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

Just commiserating. A (5 in January) will pee on the potty but will only poop in her diaper. She holds it until naptime or bedtime when she gets a diaper because she is still in a crib. I don't know what to do about it because I don't think she's ready to be night pee-trained so even if we got rid of the crib she'd still have a diaper and hold it all day long. She's incredibly stubborn.

Obviously I shouldn't be giving advice but I have heard this is common (that poop comes much later). Hopefully she gets it soon!

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 11:07:58 GMT -5 stephm0188 said:

My son was close to 4. We backed off for awhile, and then approached it from another angle. I didn't say a word to about him or diapers or going potty. He'd heard it all.

I did start rewarding myself, though. Everytime I went, I got a sticker. Everytime my husband went, he got a sticker. We never pressured him or said anything like "You can have a sticker, too, if you go." He did't care about stickers the first time around.


He did care when he was the only one not getting them, though. I think he finally decide to go just as a "SEE, I can do it, too, big deal" kind of thing. The first time he went Ididn't give him that big "YAY!" because he would have backed off. It was more of a "You did?! No way. Really? Okay, come pick out a sticker. I have FIVE stickers, see?" He couldn't let me win I wasn't rewarding him. He was trying to compete with me. That was his currency. I just had to find it.

Potty trained in three days after that with zero accidents. It was a control thing for him, for sure.

Hmm thanks for the suggestion.  I definitely haven't tried rewarding myself but it's definitely worth a shot.  Our doctor did mention to highly praise our two year old so that my 4 year old would feel like he's missing out so this definitely worth trying to!

Although part of me questions it because he is so stubborn.  Like he is actually genuinely proud of his little brother when he goes... he will say "C I am so proud of you! You are such a good little potty pee-er! How is your gummy bear treat?/ that's a great sticker you got" LOL 

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 10:40:35 GMT -5 hocus2 said:

My older child was suborn. Given where you're at I'd possibly inquire about an x-ray to see if there is some sort of blockage. It can cause issues with poop(getting it out, but also not being able to control it) and with pee as well since you bladder gets squeezed by a softball or bigger blockage.

Once you determine that there isn't a health issue then I'd step back, set a date when the underwear go away and then do a cold turkey switch. He's 4.5 so he can probably pick up in a day or two if he buys into what you're doing. You could do a big bride or small bribes, but I might skip it. We told my daughter that she needed to train before a certain age because it was a house rule. We gave her a softener to ensure she didn't get blocked up (which was an issue) and she figured it out.

Ugh yes I will definitely look into this. I do wondering if there could be something going on medically.  He used to always say (when he was actually trying) that he couldn't make the pee come out and that his pee-pee was "broken".

Yeah I am struggling with the idea of going cold turkey again. I was ready to try to do that... but then his doctor made me question that idea. He was like he has to be on board with it, otherwise it's not going to work. But I question that? I think that's part of the problem.... I really DON'T know what the right thing to do is.

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 11:10:35 GMT -5 scribellesam said:

My older son has SPD and I felt like this affected his potty training. It took us a little over a year to get him fully trained, which happened just after his fourth birthday. Generally, we bribed the hell out of him (at one point, he got a new Matchbox car every single time he even peed), and also backed off when he was getting stressed. For example, I taught him to ask for a pull-up when he needed to poop rather than pressuring him to go in the toilet. This helped him to realize and act when he needed to go without forcing him out of diapers.

I also second the recommendation to look into further potential medical or psychological reasons behind his resistance. All the kids I know who trained at 4 or later had underlying issues (spectrum, SPD, blockage, etc.)

Thanks for sharing.  And yes I do wonder if there are some issues that may be contributing to how difficult this has been.  That's why I don't think it would hurt to follow through with that.

[isabel]

Aug 10, 2017 11:31:02 GMT -5 bdubs419 said:

Aug 10, 2017 11:07:58 GMT -5 stephm0188 said:

My son was close to 4. We backed off for awhile, and then approached it from another angle. I didn't say a word to about him or diapers or going potty. He'd heard it all.

I did start rewarding myself, though. Everytime I went, I got a sticker. Everytime my husband went, he got a sticker. We never pressured him or said anything like "You can have a sticker, too, if you go." He did't care about stickers the first time around.


He did care when he was the only one not getting them, though. I think he finally decide to go just as a "SEE, I can do it, too, big deal" kind of thing. The first time he went Ididn't give him that big "YAY!" because he would have backed off. It was more of a "You did?! No way. Really? Okay, come pick out a sticker. I have FIVE stickers, see?" He couldn't let me win I wasn't rewarding him. He was trying to compete with me. That was his currency. I just had to find it.

Potty trained in three days after that with zero accidents. It was a control thing for him, for sure.

Hmm thanks for the suggestion.  I definitely haven't tried rewarding myself but it's definitely worth a shot.  Our doctor did mention to highly praise our two year old so that my 4 year old would feel like he's missing out so this definitely worth trying to!

Although part of me questions it because he is so stubborn.  Like he is actually genuinely proud of his little brother when he goes... he will say "C I am so proud of you! You are such a good little potty pee-er! How is your gummy bear treat?/ that's a great sticker you got" LOL 

Omg lol. At least he's a good big brother?

[chickadee77]

Second-hand commiseration. I have a nephew that didn't train until 5, and didn't poop train until a little later. I think his mom just backed off completely and let him figure it out - she kind of said that a combination of wearing a pull-up to kindergarten (I don't think the kids made fun of him, exactly, but he was uncomfortable with it) and the knowledge that he would likely train before high school (sigh, I know) and lots of wine got her through.

Good luck - I'm sure it's super frustrating for all of you.

[bdubs419]

Aug 10, 2017 16:44:32 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Second-hand commiseration. I have a nephew that didn't train until 5, and didn't poop train until a little later. I think his mom just backed off completely and let him figure it out - she kind of said that a combination of wearing a pull-up to kindergarten (I don't think the kids made fun of him, exactly, but he was uncomfortable with it) and the knowledge that he would likely train before high school (sigh, I know) and lots of wine got her through.

Good luck - I'm sure it's super frustrating for all of you.

Thanks for sharing this. I try to remind myself often that eventually he will figure it out and hopefully won't be wearing pull ups to college!

[lillaguma]

My youngest brother was like this. He's nearly 16 years younger than me, so I remember the potty training period really well. My mom even had me try as my summer "job" one summer, but I failed, too. My mom and I were actually talking about it the other night (because I'm thinking about starting to potty train my 2-year-old) and how completely awful it was for everyone, including him. He was super stubborn and I think had gotten some bad feelings and anxiety about it. What randomly worked for him suddenly was being able to earn a trip to a local fast food restaurant to get an ice cream cone, but I'm quite sure many, many bribes and rewards had been offered before that. So it may have also just been that he was finally ready.

It's tough. So second hand commiseration from me, too. Hugs.

[curlymon]

I'm right there with you. My 4 year old (who is in food therapy, speech therapy and OT) is still not poop potty trained. He didn't pee potty train until about 6 months ago. He would sit and sit on the potty with no pee coming out and get so frustrated. We finally figured out that he really didn't understand how to relax the muscle to pee. Once we figured that out he was good.

Poop is a whole other story. He will poop on the potty when he needs to poop alot. But he has poop accidents every day in his underwear. His food therapist thinks he has an enlarged rectum and that he truly can't feel when he poops a little. So we'll most likely end up at a GI doctor soon.

What worked for us to get him to even sit on the potty and try was major bribes. Like $10 transformers every time he pooped in the potty. Now we're on a sticker chart that when he fills up, he gets a cool prize.

[auntie]

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.

DS was late to bowel train. Bladder was no biggie; that clicked in a couple hours.

But damn that boy "fought" me on using the toilet for poop. He worked it so he could and would poop during my shower; didn't matter if I showered at 9am, noon or just before dinner- his ability to control this was remarkable. On the advice of his pediatrician, just before he turned 4, we gave him ownership of the process. His job was to get the poop in the toilet one way or the other and to clean himself up. He tested me once and my mother once and it was over. Given that you've tried the 3 Day and it was counter-productive, I wouldn't expect this to work at this point.

That said, what scribellesam, said about an underlying "something else" turned out to be our situation. DS had always been a challenging kid- very bright and generally well behaved for me- but holy hell was he intense. He's an only, so I never got that second easier kid to help me feel like I was OK as a parent until he was ultimately dxd with a mild form of ASD. Ironically, being toilet trained by 4 meant his "adaptive skills" were "age appropriate so he got an Aspergers label rather than HFA. In retrospect, I think his delay was driven by anxiety (not the actual ASD- and not saying I think your kid has ASD) and a need to manage his anxiety by controlling that which he could control. He'd had an accident when my mother tried to potty train him at 2 (because both my sister's kids sort of self trained at 18 months with the promise of cute panties). He missed and got the rug and spent 18 months talking about how he "pooped on the rug like Roo" (my ancient incontinent Persian cat) FTR, DS isn't the kind of kid who responds to bribes or earned rewards- he just didn't until he was considerably older.

I would start with a psychologist sooner. A fresh set of eyes may be able to devise a plan that can be effective for this and other behaviors that challenge you both. Good luck. There is light at the end of the tunnel' I hope it happens for you soon.

[penguingrrl]

My middle one trained at nearly 4.

She seemed ready and we tried at 2y 8m. She did great for a week then for whatever reason it turned into a major battle of wills. She stubbornly refused to look at or go near a potty. I finally gave up. About a year later, having barely casually mentioned anything in the ensuing time, she suddenly was ready. I later found out a friend from school had (innocently, it was genuine curiosity) asked why she still wore a diaper like babies. She came home and asked for underwear and didn't even need training. Apparently she had the physical signs but wouldn't do it until she had the idea on her own (or at least, not from an adult).

[bdubs419]

Aug 11, 2017 7:03:08 GMT -5 curlymon said:

I'm right there with you. My 4 year old (who is in food therapy, speech therapy and OT) is still not poop potty trained. He didn't pee potty train until about 6 months ago. He would sit and sit on the potty with no pee coming out and get so frustrated. We finally figured out that he really didn't understand how to relax the muscle to pee. Once we figured that out he was good.

This definitely sounds like part of his issue.  I feel like when he was at a point where he was trying, he was anxious and tense and pushing too hard.  I would try to tell him to relax his muscles but I don't think he quite got it.

Hopefully eventually he will figure this out.

[bdubs419]

Aug 11, 2017 9:08:17 GMT -5 auntie said:

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.

DS was late to bowel train. Bladder was no biggie; that clicked in a couple hours.

But damn that boy "fought" me on using the toilet for poop. He worked it so he could and would poop during my shower; didn't matter if I showered at 9am, noon or just before dinner- his ability to control this was remarkable. On the advice of his pediatrician, just before he turned 4, we gave him ownership of the process. His job was to get the poop in the toilet one way or the other and to clean himself up. He tested me once and my mother once and it was over. Given that you've tried the 3 Day and it was counter-productive, I wouldn't expect this to work at this point.

That said, what scribellesam , said about an underlying "something else" turned out to be our situation. DS had always been a challenging kid- very bright and generally well behaved for me- but holy hell was he intense. He's an only, so I never got that second easier kid to help me feel like I was OK as a parent until he was ultimately dxd with a mild form of ASD. Ironically, being toilet trained by 4 meant his "adaptive skills" were "age appropriate so he got an Aspergers label rather than HFA. In retrospect, I think his delay was driven by anxiety (not the actual ASD- and not saying I think your kid has ASD) and a need to manage his anxiety by controlling that which he could control. He'd had an accident when my mother tried to potty train him at 2 (because both my sister's kids sort of self trained at 18 months with the promise of cute panties). He missed and got the rug and spent 18 months talking about how he "pooped on the rug like Roo" (my ancient incontinent Persian cat) FTR, DS isn't the kind of kid who responds to bribes or earned rewards- he just didn't until he was considerably older.

I would start with a psychologist sooner. A fresh set of eyes may be able to devise a plan that can be effective for this and other behaviors that challenge you both. Good luck. There is light at the end of the tunnel' I hope it happens for you soon.

Thanks so much for sharing.  I appreciate it. 

[countthestars]

Aug 11, 2017 12:29:58 GMT -5 bdubs419 said:

Aug 11, 2017 7:03:08 GMT -5 curlymon said:

I'm right there with you. My 4 year old (who is in food therapy, speech therapy and OT) is still not poop potty trained. He didn't pee potty train until about 6 months ago. He would sit and sit on the potty with no pee coming out and get so frustrated. We finally figured out that he really didn't understand how to relax the muscle to pee. Once we figured that out he was good.

This definitely sounds like part of his issue.  I feel like when he was at a point where he was trying, he was anxious and tense and pushing too hard.  I would try to tell him to relax his muscles but I don't think he quite got it.

Hopefully eventually he will figure this out.

curlymon - was the learning to relax the muscle something he learned via intervention or did it just take time and/or coaching from you? I truly think this is DD's biggest issue (related to the anxiety).

[lo]

Aug 11, 2017 22:26:42 GMT -5 countthestars said:

Aug 11, 2017 12:29:58 GMT -5 bdubs419 said:

This definitely sounds like part of his issue.  I feel like when he was at a point where he was trying, he was anxious and tense and pushing too hard.  I would try to tell him to relax his muscles but I don't think he quite got it.

Hopefully eventually he will figure this out.

curlymon - was the learning to relax the muscle something he learned via intervention or did it just take time and/or coaching from you? I truly think this is DD's biggest issue (related to the anxiety).

This might seem weird, but after my c section and the catheter came out I was having so much trouble peeing. The nurses told me I would have to have the catheter put in again if I didn't start peeing at a certain time, so I was freaking out. I turned to google and I read to try blowing bubbles in a water cup with a straw while trying to pee, and it worked so well for me. I think it helped me relax those muscles and sort of takes your mind off peeing. Plus maybe the sound? Ok, told you it would sound weird, lol, but maybe a child would think it was fun.

[bdubs419]

UPDATE -
We started the 3 day method this weekend with DS2 because he has been doing well at school. I tried to make it as fun as possible (super hero underwear, tons of prizes, treats, juice boxes, sticker charts and the incentive to stay home from daycare an extra day with mommy) in hopes that DS1 would want to join in. Well I don't think the actual prizes did anything to change his mind but he did not want his little brother wearing underwear without him!!!! Thank goodness!!

They have both been doing great (with the exception of poop and nighttime peeing). But one step at a time!!! DS1 had literally NEVER peed in a potty in his 4.5 years and has gone maybe a 100 times over the past 3 days! I think his biggest issue was learning how to relax (so thank you to the posters who mentioned this) to actually let the pee come out. In the past he would get super tense and push too hard. Ironically after all we have been through he went from never going to not having even ONE pee accident so far (3rd day today!).