I can definitely see how the hagiography (I learned a new word in via Twitter about how we remember HW!) that makes up the mainstream remembrances if HW can feel hurtful to communities he's harmed, though. I don't have a problem also talking here about the ways he was hateful. I don't think we have any of his family members here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Reagan and HW Bush also the ones who harnessed evangelicals to really politicize abortion/women's healthcare too?
Complicated is certainly an apt way to describe him. He did some really good and honorable things, and he also did some things that harmed a lot of vulnerable people. I'm not surprised that there are mixed emotions about his passing and legacy.
It is frustrating to me that it seems the main media discussion is only the good sides of him. I absolutely think the good things he did - his military service, the Americans with Disabilities Act, his post-presidency philanthropy - should be part of the story we tell at his death. But he opposed the Civil Rights Act, was deeply involved in the Nixon White House, refused to pull the nomination of Clarence Thomas (which paved the way for Brett Kavanaugh), abd vetoed FMLA, and this part of his legacy should be up for discussion, too. People are complicated. For ordinary people, the most appropriate thing at death may be to discuss the good and leave the bad - I certainly don’t expect the Bush family to opine in his opposition to the Civil Rights Act while they are mourning his passing - but public figures are different.
I’m also frustrated that, as with McCain, he’s being lauded as a lifelong public servant by many of the same people who consider government employees to be overpaid lazy moochers who are a drain on the taxpayers. Are you only a public servant if you’re white? Male? At the very top of an organization? Why does the black secretary working at the DOJ not also get treated as a public servant by these same people? To be clear, it’s not that I don’t think McCain or HW served their country. They did. I’m just tired of rich white men being declared public servants while I see my less rich, often not white, coworkers be used as political pawns, as though they contribute nothing.
I think 41 is a good example of someone who wasn’t perfect, did bad things, and hurt a lot of people.....but wasn’t evil.
A few people have mentioned history and I get that argument but also......time does provide clarity. Just because people mourn him now doesn’t mean his legacy won’t be studied objectively in the years to come. Look at Kennedy. My grandmother would not hear a word against him. We talk about him differently now. Hell look at Nixon. As time goes on we are able to look at presidents and their legacy on its own and the mourning at their death is just a footnote (minus something like JFK obviously).
The man did incredible things for his country (like being shot down and surviving during a war).
He helped a lot of people. Like all of those with disabilities (like myself).
He also groped a 16 year old child and made many, many women feel like shit.
I don't think he was an evil man. But I think that he hurt women at the expense of his own pleasure without a thought of how he was damaging someone that was an actual person and not just a body to be felt up just for fun.
I hope his legacy is less about the fact that he was an AMAZING public servant and more about the fact that people can do incredibly good things and incredibly bad things.
I am not excusing him. I think he was a product of his generation and the beliefs of his time. But its on him that he didn't grow and realize what he was doing was inexcusable. I don't know. Like the earlier tweet, IRL is complex. I am not on board with this veneration of him, his policies, his services.. and ignoring his very real and personal actions.
Post by seeyalater52 on Dec 3, 2018 6:57:32 GMT -5
Also while I’m usually mildly sympathetic to the “wait a day after someone passes to start criticizing them” train of thought (except Scalia, fuck that guy) the first day that George HW Bush was being mourned was ON World AIDS Day. Like, you can’t say absolutely nothing about the entire generation of people he had a major hand in eradicating on the day meant to honor them.
A dozen or two fluffy articles written after their deaths won’t drown out all of their victims voices.
But it does a disservice to those voices to imply they should be silent while people laud his good side. Once again it prioritizes "being polite" over the real hurt that many communities and individuals feel.
And to be clear, I'm not saying anyone here is doing this--I'm saying that major papers ignoring the AIDS crisis reaction or the groping scandal or the war on drugs are silencing those voices and denying their history to be part of the main-stream historical memory.
A dozen or two fluffy articles written after their deaths won’t drown out all of their victims voices.
But it does a disservice to those voices to imply they should be silent while people laud his good side. Once again it prioritizes "being polite" over the real hurt that many communities and individuals feel.
And to be clear, I'm not saying anyone here is doing this--I'm saying that major papers ignoring the AIDS crisis reaction or the groping scandal or the war on drugs are silencing those voices and denying their history to be part of the main-stream historical memory.
Particularly when some of these things have generally been erased from our collective historical memory by virtue of the fact that they largely affected those who are marginalized and discounted. I don’t trust the record to be correct in the end because frankly when has it ever been very good on issues affecting minority communities? It’s up to us to make sure it isn’t forgotten.
He did sign the Ryan White CARE act in 1990. (Someone who worked in the field, with AIDS patients back then, mentioned that and said how it, combined with the ADA, changed things for those with AIDS and those who worked with them and cared about them. So he couldn't *totally* hate Bush because of it.) (Note: Ryan White was not gay, but a white teenager who got AIDS through a transfusion, and thus sympathetic to the general public. That's still, sadly, a big deal when it comes to funding things like this.)
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Dec 3, 2018 10:45:29 GMT -5
My local public radio has done a decent job discussing the bad parts of his legacy (in that they're discussing it) but it's been rubbing me the wrong way how they're going about it. It seems like they're jumping through hoops not to speak ill of the dead, so they keep mentioning that all presidents have done both good & bad. And when they do talk about the bad, they follow it up directly with something really good.
I don't think this is their intent, but it seems like they're excusing the bad because of the good.
But it does a disservice to those voices to imply they should be silent while people laud his good side. Once again it prioritizes "being polite" over the real hurt that many communities and individuals feel.
And to be clear, I'm not saying anyone here is doing this--I'm saying that major papers ignoring the AIDS crisis reaction or the groping scandal or the war on drugs are silencing those voices and denying their history to be part of the main-stream historical memory.
Particularly when some of these things have generally been erased from our collective historical memory by virtue of the fact that they largely affected those who are marginalized and discounted. I don’t trust the record to be correct in the end because frankly when has it ever been very good on issues affecting minority communities? It’s up to us to make sure it isn’t forgotten.
I think another big issue with making sure this isn't forgotten is the current collective thoughts on AIDS. I know I've read a few articles and public health presentations that essentially warn us against forgetting about AIDS and HIV, because they aren't as "scary" (only for lack of a better term) and unknown as when the 80s epidemic started. My generation has never not known AIDS and HIV, and I'm close to 40 at this point. So if you have essentially half the population for whom this wasn't at 80s crisis level for, and a huge portion of the remaining half that are just leaving it out of the conversation, well...here we are.
*Not my most articulate thoughts today, but this is tough.
You are such a worthless piece of shit. You will never be half the person this man was and you will never experience anything close to the suffering he has gone through. You will never contribute anything positive to this world so just shut the fuck up. Don't even comment on his Memorial- you really don't deserve to.
You are such a worthless piece of shit. You will never be half the person this man was and you will never experience anything close to the suffering he has gone through. You will never contribute anything positive to this world so just shut the fuck up. Don't even comment on his Memorial- you really don't deserve to.
You’re fucking kidding me right?? Do you know who you are quoting? May you rot in hell for saying something like that to pixy you sick fuck.
You are such a worthless piece of shit. You will never be half the person this man was and you will never experience anything close to the suffering he has gone through. You will never contribute anything positive to this world so just shut the fuck up. Don't even comment on his Memorial- you really don't deserve to.
You’re fucking kidding me right?? Do you know who you are quoting? May you rot in hell for saying something like that to pixy you sick fuck.
I know exactly who I am quoting. She is a vile, heartless, bitch and she will most definitely rot in Hell the way she is going.
It's a troll and not worth responding to, but thanks.
Not a troll, just someone who thinks you are disgusting. It must be nice to be able to label any dissenting voice..evil works on those that allow it. You celebrate and glorify the death of innocent people because they don't fit your narrative of the world. Your demons will catch up with you.
Anyhoo, just popping in to ask if I was the only person who was surprised to see that Bob Dole is still alive. I swear, I thought I remembered his death about 10 years ago, but I guess not.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Anyhoo, just popping in to ask if I was the only person who was surprised to see that Bob Dole is still alive. I swear, I thought I remembered his death about 10 years ago, but I guess not.
Anyhoo, just popping in to ask if I was the only person who was surprised to see that Bob Dole is still alive. I swear, I thought I remembered his death about 10 years ago, but I guess not.
95...damn I hope I can make it that long!
The Greatest Generation is made of hearty stuff. May we all be so blessed.
Is there some reason we haven't banned Oracle? She is a troll who only rolls in to insult people. She contributes nothing helpful to any conversation. Although I would like to have more dissenting voices on this board, she does not provide any actual viewpoints to discuss. She just screams about how we are all awful.
Is there some reason we haven't banned Oracle? She is a troll who only rolls in to insult people. She contributes nothing helpful to any conversation. Although I would like to have more dissenting voices on this board, she does not provide any actual viewpoints to discuss. She just screams about how we are all awful.
I agree. She meets the official definition of troll under CEP policy, and she’s targeting specific board members.
You are such a worthless piece of shit. You will never be half the person this man was and you will never experience anything close to the suffering he has gone through. You will never contribute anything positive to this world so just shut the fuck up. Don't even comment on his Memorial- you really don't deserve to.
Lord grant me the confidence of a self-righteous white Christian.
Actually, no. Because I don't want to be an asshole.
I also thought Bob Dole was dead. I think maybe it was out there that he was pretty sick a couple years ago and I thought he died then? I'm not sure.
Oh no, he was at the GOP convention having a grand ol’ time with his good buddy Manafort. I remember because it was notable that he was the only ex-Presidential candidate (or President) to attend in 2016. Also provided some glowing words for Trump’s nomination.
You are such a worthless piece of shit. You will never be half the person this man was and you will never experience anything close to the suffering he has gone through. You will never contribute anything positive to this world so just shut the fuck up. Don't even comment on his Memorial- you really don't deserve to.
So she's stated that she is holding back from saying anything and yet you come in and attack her? Seriously. Her written actions are far kinder and nicer than anything I've seen you write on here. She did not attack the president and yet you come on offense so many times - that says more about the person you are and a lot about the person she is.
If you want to actually contribute to this board then please do - give us facts and information that support what you think and feel. But don't come in here constantly attacking the members for their own personal feelings and thoughts, which are typically well supported by facts (as it shown above with their mentions of why they don't like this president). If you continue to do so, many more of us will support having your membership banned. I encourage discourse and what you are doing is not that at any moment in time.
Anyhoo, just popping in to ask if I was the only person who was surprised to see that Bob Dole is still alive. I swear, I thought I remembered his death about 10 years ago, but I guess not.
I too had thought he had passed away. I knew he had health issues.