The United Methodist Book of Discipline, which is basically the governing document for the church, says that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching." There is currently an effort to evaluate how to handle that, as progressive wings want it removed but traditionalists want it to stay, but I am not hopeful it is going to shake out on the right side of history. Until we moved we attended a "Reconciling" Methodist church, which means they had adopted a "welcoming statement" and are affirming, but I was troubled by belonging to a larger organization that was so hurtful.
We're currently attending a Presbyterian Church (USA), and have been happy so far both with our local congregation and the denomination.
A couple of resources I've used when looking for churches are gaychurch.org and churchclarity.org. I found these much more useful than posts on our neighborhood Facebook group where people are shouting that their non-denom church welcomes "everyone!" Um, the info about marriage in your church tells me otherwise...
I’d honestly just steer clear of non-denominational churches generally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
See, I did too, but before we moved we had found one that was AMAZING. They ticked all the boxes for us: open and affirming, great children's programs, small groups, modern music, interesting sermons, and weren't afraid to speak out on topics that other churches considered too controversial (for example, they were vocal BLM supporters). I didn't want to miss out on something great like that in our new town, so I looked into ALL of the non-denominational churches around here. [thumbs down]
Trying for #3; FET 8/18 -- BFN. Leaving things up to chance for now... After three years, three IVFs, and two FETs, we finally have our miracle babIES!
The United Methodist Book of Discipline, which is basically the governing document for the church, says that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching." There is currently an effort to evaluate how to handle that, as progressive wings want it removed but traditionalists want it to stay, but I am not hopeful it is going to shake out on the right side of history. Until we moved we attended a "Reconciling" Methodist church, which means they had adopted a "welcoming statement" and are affirming, but I was troubled by belonging to a larger organization that was so hurtful.
We're currently attending a Presbyterian Church (USA), and have been happy so far both with our local congregation and the denomination.
A couple of resources I've used when looking for churches are gaychurch.org and churchclarity.org. I found these much more useful than posts on our neighborhood Facebook group where people are shouting that their non-denom church welcomes "everyone!" Um, the info about marriage in your church tells me otherwise...
I’d honestly just steer clear of non-denominational churches generally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Samantha Field had a tweet the other day that said something like “non denominational Christian churches are just independent Baptists with a decent marketing team”
My kids are finishing out the year in their religious ed classes (it’s a sacrament year that we’d already started when I really began to think about leaving) and then we are taking a break and will use that time to decide about what to do. I don’t know. For me it’s all very cultural but I don’t donate money (never have as an adult) and barely attend church. I’ve left and returned before so we will see.
I talked to both of them about what they wanted to do, without going too deeply into why I want us to take a break (it’s such a small part of our lives that it’s all kind of much ado about nothing to them since we are hit or miss on RE attendance and don’t attend church with any regularity) and they wanted to finish out the year with their friends.
It’s hard for me as it’s such a huge part of my identity and childhood but it sort of makes me sick to even think about which says a lot.
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
The United Methodist Book of Discipline, which is basically the governing document for the church, says that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching." There is currently an effort to evaluate how to handle that, as progressive wings want it removed but traditionalists want it to stay, but I am not hopeful it is going to shake out on the right side of history. Until we moved we attended a "Reconciling" Methodist church, which means they had adopted a "welcoming statement" and are affirming, but I was troubled by belonging to a larger organization that was so hurtful.
We're currently attending a Presbyterian Church (USA), and have been happy so far both with our local congregation and the denomination.
A couple of resources I've used when looking for churches are gaychurch.org and churchclarity.org. I found these much more useful than posts on our neighborhood Facebook group where people are shouting that their non-denom church welcomes "everyone!" Um, the info about marriage in your church tells me otherwise...
The special general conference for the UMC starts this weekend. I'm hoping it is voted to remove the harmful "incompatible" line from the book of discipline, but we will wait and see. The Reconciling Ministries is a wonderful group, and we tithe to them instead of our church. I'm waiting to see what happens at general conference before I decide to stay or leave the denomination.
For those who are conflicted about leaving, have you ever conversation with someone who was really hurt by the church? I'm not talking only about the sexual abuse survivors, though their trauma should not be forgotten in this conversation. Instead, there are no shortage of people who love(d) the church but can't live within the guidelines because they are gay or needed to have an abortion or had to get divorced or or are struggling with end of life options. Do you know how truly horrible it is for them to be at the point in their life when the need the church more than anything, and to find the doors closed?
Right now, plenty of people may be staying with the Church because they feel as though their priest and parish are "good." But these relationships to the church is only as good as your ability to control it at any given moment. That's not always going to be the case. Do you want to be on your death bed, and have the hospital send someone you don't know to unleash fire and brimstone and judgment on your life during your final moments?
And @@@ warning here, but your kids are going to face challenges in their own life. Do you want them to be struggling with their sexuality or an unplanned pregnancy, walk into a church, and made to feel like utter shit at the moment in their life when they need a source of light and spiritual guidance more than any other time in their life?
There are no shortage of stories by people who grew up in "good" parishes who were let down during their most challenging moments. Perhaps reading some and reflecting on that might give you the push you need to leave.
I don't belong to my church because it is a good church; I belong to it because it makes me good (or better, at least). Regular prayer, hearing the scripture, receiving the body of Jesus, participating in the sacraments-- these are things that make me reflect on my own state and challenge me to be a better person. When I don't go, or when I substitute other denominations, I find I am more complacent and self-centered. For me, this is the best way I can hold myself accountable.
Nurse Cramer had stopped speaking to Nurse Duckett, her best friend, because of her liaison with Yossarian, but still went everywhere with Nurse Duckett since Nurse Duckett was her best friend....Nurse Cramer was prepared to begin talking to Nurse Duckett again if she repented and apologized.
I’d honestly just steer clear of non-denominational churches generally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Samantha Field had a tweet the other day that said something like “non denominational Christian churches are just independent Baptists with a decent marketing team”
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
For those who are conflicted about leaving, have you ever conversation with someone who was really hurt by the church? I'm not talking only about the sexual abuse survivors, though their trauma should not be forgotten in this conversation. Instead, there are no shortage of people who love(d) the church but can't live within the guidelines because they are gay or needed to have an abortion or had to get divorced or or are struggling with end of life options. Do you know how truly horrible it is for them to be at the point in their life when the need the church more than anything, and to find the doors closed?
Right now, plenty of people may be staying with the Church because they feel as though their priest and parish are "good." But these relationships to the church is only as good as your ability to control it at any given moment. That's not always going to be the case. Do you want to be on your death bed, and have the hospital send someone you don't know to unleash fire and brimstone and judgment on your life during your final moments?
And @@@ warning here, but your kids are going to face challenges in their own life. Do you want them to be struggling with their sexuality or an unplanned pregnancy, walk into a church, and made to feel like utter shit at the moment in their life when they need a source of light and spiritual guidance more than any other time in their life?
There are no shortage of stories by people who grew up in "good" parishes who were let down during their most challenging moments. Perhaps reading some and reflecting on that might give you the push you need to leave.
I don't belong to my church because it is a good church; I belong to it because it makes me good (or better, at least). Regular prayer, hearing the scripture, receiving the body of Jesus, participating in the sacraments-- these are things that make me reflect on my own state and challenge me to be a better person. When I don't go, or when I substitute other denominations, I find I am more complacent and self-centered. For me, this is the best way I can hold myself accountable.
Well, yes, I assume those are reasons that anyone goes to church or other kinds of religious services. They find something in a particular religion or priest or house of worship that resonates with them and makes them better. I really hope people aren't attending Catholic services but not finding spiritual fulfillment.
My point was not that people only go to Catholic services because their parish doesn't seem outwardly homophobic, but that people justify staying and not finding other avenues for spiritual fulfillment because their church isn't outwardly homophobic.
I understand that religion is extremely personal and it may be that no other community can ever be a perfect replacement for how the church makes you feel on a given day or week. But it's also an actual fact that some people who find spiritual fulfillment for many years also reach a point in their lives when they feel as though the Church has disappointed them. You just glossed over that. Maybe it's because you personally feel confident that the Church will continue to deliver for you, regardless of what challenges you have to endure. But while that's the definition of faith, to me, it's also the definition of privilege.
I don't know anything about your circumstances, and my original post was not intended to tell anyone how to worship. I was speaking to people who asked for a push. If that's not you, you don't need to justify your decision to stay. But if you are going to encourage people to stay, please do so in a way that does not assume that their families' lives will never be at odds with the Church's teachings.
Both my husband and my (feminist, woman) co-pastor were raised Catholic. As you can imagine, my co-pastor struggled with wanting to contribute to church leadership/attend seminary for YEARS, but had to leave the patriarchal church structure to do so. We attend a United Church of Christ congregation and I’m currently leading the committee to become Open and Affirming (a special process for churches that was to be designated pro-LGBTQIA in terms of member acceptance, education and programming).
I recently found out my company owner attends a conservative church that is a breakaway church of a main line denomination, but way more conservative. One of those churches that thinks the world is too... worldly, which is likely why he lives in the middle of nowhere and does a combination of sending his kids to Christian school and homeschooling them. Unsurprisingly, this church does not allow women to serve in leadership roles, including deacons or elders. Lol forever - there are literally like 2-3 men who serve as deacons or elders in my church, plus the head pastor, and the rest of us are women. We would not be able to function without women. Anyway, for some reason this discovery seems even more egregious to me than the Catholic Church because it was a conscious decision by the current members of that church to structure it in such a way.
How many of your “good” parishes are sitting on a secret list of child abusing priests?
This has been going on IN THE PUBLIC since the 90s!! Yet people still willingly hand over their hearts, souls, AND CHILDREN to this organization year after year. It’s unfathomable. If your kids’ elementary school had this level of historical harm to kids would you keep sending your kids there? NO. What tentacles this church must have on people.
The reason why the Catholic Church will never change is because at its core it asks its followers to accept as gospel some very unnatural truths: 1. That women can’t lead. And 2. Men can’t lead unless they refrain from sex. Those are two very dangerous ingredients. Can you imagine what would happen if a business or governmental organization followed those two rules?
I grew up with some Baptist teaching some Catholic. I have as am adult found a home in the United Church of Christ. My congregation is an open and affirming congregation. Our pastor is transgender and we put on one of the first same sex weddings in the state. We are active in the pride parade and do a lot of outreach.
We are trying to also become a WISE and A2A (access to all) congregation. I love the inclusivity of my church and spend as much time, energy, and money on our goals as I can.
There are quite a few former Catholics, who left for some of the reasons being articulated here, at my Quaker meeting.
There are a lot in my (very progressive) Episcopalian congregation as well. Just be sure you're going to an Episcopal church and not an Anglican one or you might be in for a shock.
How many of your “good” parishes are sitting on a secret list of child abusing priests?
This has been going on IN THE PUBLIC since the 90s!! Yet people still willingly hand over their hearts, souls, AND CHILDREN to this organization year after year. It’s unfathomable. If your kids’ elementary school had this level of historical harm to kids would you keep sending your kids there? NO. What tentacles this church must have on people.
We're sort of Catholic-by-association (didn't grow up in it, but our families did, parents all left before we were born but the traditions continue to some degree). DS has gone to Catholic preschool for the last two years; we had every intention of keeping him in Catholic school K-12. But this right here is exactly why we've done an about-face and he won't be attending beyond this year. I've spent literally hours of my life in background checks and Protecting God's Children classes as a parent to even go volunteer in his classroom for a Halloween party or Valentine's party, but the Archdiocese of Chicago has been shuffling pedophile priests around the country for decades and the Vatican even today is blaming "the gay agenda" for their problems. There's such a disconnect there that I can't in good conscience keep my kid(s) in that environment any longer. I was so hopeful it would change, but it's not, and I'm not going to twiddle my thumbs and risk my kid being yet another victim. Ugh, sorry for the tangent but you really hit the nail on the head for me.
Edit: I am resentful and salty as HELL about this, too. We chose this particular preschool because DS is immune compromised and they require all vaccines unless there's a medical reason for an exemption. Their vax rate is like 98%. The local public school has a much lower vax rate, last I checked it was only someplace around 68-70%. And the baptist school has stuff about liberalism being a mental disorder on their school website. There aren't any other options. What a choice, what a choice.
Anyone following the passing of the bill involving the Catholic Church and abuse by it's priests that just passed in NY? Let's just say I know the people in the the NYT article very very well. So incredibly proud of them.
Take this with a grain of salt as I'm an atheist. I have zero positive feelings about the Catholic Church. I don't understand how people can continue to be members of Catholic churches that still practice in it's original intent. I don't understand how people can turn a blind eye to so many atrocities and ridiculous continued practices.
Day 1: The Catholic Church has no intention of enacting a zero tolerance policy for child abusers and enablers.
I'd say I'm shocked but I'm not.
My mom grew up Catholic, even going to Catholic schools, and I don't know what happened as she doesn't talk about it, but she won't step foot in a Catholic Church and wouldn't let us either as kids. This was in the 60's, nothing has changed.
Another area where they are alienating people is with infertility. I have people tell me (because it’s the message from their priest) that IVF is playing god, it should be outlawed, etc. My cousins church is now doing events on “big fertility” (like big tobacco and big pharma) and how it’s all about the money and not really needed. Another friend left the church because they spoke out against her IF, and in our state a teacher was fired from a Catholic school for undergoing IVF.
An article was posted here about 6 months ago about the terrible things that were done to children at Catholic boarding schools in Vermont (hopefully memory serves correctly). Of all the things that the Catholic church has covered up, for some reason that article struck the strongest nerve for me. After reading the article, I cried in the car on my drive home form work. I cried for the children and I cried because I was mourning the loss of my Catholic self. I had been an active member of a Catholic church. Like previous posters, I excused my continuing membership because I belonged to an open-minded, liberal parish. But, I could not longer stand the hypocrisy in the church and in myself. I haven't been to mass since, and I don't feel guilty about it.
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
It's incredibly disturbing, but very well written.
I grew up Catholic and was confirmed. I lapsed in college and now I'm sort of an atheist. I struggle with mom guilt sometimes with not raising the kids in a church. But I can't go to church if I don't really believe.
I did grow up in a more progressive church and was surprised when I moved to northern VA with how conservative this area was. I have no intention of ever going back to the church, especially after everything that has come out. I'm done.
fryjack2, I assume you are referring to the Child Victims Act? If so, I am following and curious to see how this impacts things. I am in NYS and there are already A LOT of advertisements and notices both on air and in print for victims to come forward.
Another area where they are alienating people is with infertility. I have people tell me (because it’s the message from their priest) that IVF is playing god, it should be outlawed, etc. My cousins church is now doing events on “big fertility” (like big tobacco and big pharma) and how it’s all about the money and not really needed. Another friend left the church because they spoke out against her IF, and in our state a teacher was fired from a Catholic school for undergoing IVF.
@@@
Yup. Between this and the gayness I’m estranged from all of my Catholic relatives. They won’t even pray for our dead babies because they were conceived unnaturally with IVF and would have been born into sin.
But so glad the Church makes some people feel more like the best version of themselves, because it’s making the rest of us feel like utter fucking crap.
Post by redheadbaker on Feb 21, 2019 16:10:47 GMT -5
I went to Catholic elementary school, high school, and college (though I didn't choose the college because of its religious affiliation).
I honestly can't remember ever truly believing what was being taught (specifically transubstantiation, but other things as well). I wanted to stop going to church in high school, but couldn't until I graduated, because my parish paid part of my high school tuition.
I stopped going in college, started again because it was important to my first husband's parents that we get married in the church (don't even get me started). I was going through endocrine issues at the time that caused secondary infertility, and it took a LOT of discussion to get the priest to omit the "accept children" part of the vows.
Fast forward to the loss of my second pregnancy. It may not be healthy, but I still get so ANGRY at Christianity at large (not just Catholicism) for their anti-abortion lobbying. I basically left the church with both middle fingers extended and never looked back nor felt the need to find an alternate community, but I never felt like my childhood church was a community in the first place. Just a place to show up once a week, recite prayers like zombies, repeat again next week.
How many times do we say to believe people when they show us who they are? I don't think the Catholic Church should be an exception to that.
This is NOT directed at anyone in particular in this thread, but maybe the change has already happened in that there are alternative places of worship that are not supporting or harboring child molestors, who have female leadership/priests/pastors/ministor, who are supportive of the LGTQB, and are supportive of reproductive rights for women (among a few issues with the Catholic Church).
Post by simpsongal on Feb 21, 2019 17:02:04 GMT -5
Pdq- My husband is catholic, we agreed to split time when we got married and we rotate sundays. I truly don’t understand his connection to the church. He has a deep, devout faith And is very liberal. I went to various Protestant denominations growing up, and I love our Protestant church. But I suppose I don’t have that level of commitment to a particular entity/denomination. I just don’t get it. I share articles on the catholic church and try to engage over it. It’s just a nonstarter. I pray he gets there on his own but I will keep trying to bring him around.
Another area where they are alienating people is with infertility. I have people tell me (because it’s the message from their priest) that IVF is playing god, it should be outlawed, etc. My cousins church is now doing events on “big fertility” (like big tobacco and big pharma) and how it’s all about the money and not really needed. Another friend left the church because they spoke out against her IF, and in our state a teacher was fired from a Catholic school for undergoing IVF.
@@@
Yup. Between this and the gayness I’m estranged from all of my Catholic relatives. They won’t even pray for our dead babies because they were conceived unnaturally with IVF and would have been born into sin.
But so glad the Church makes some people feel more like the best version of themselves, because it’s making the rest of us feel like utter fucking crap.
It's another case of people not wanting to leave their comfort zones and ignoring reality at the expense of others. I bet most in this thread, if asked in any other context, would say they believe in social justice, equality, bringing child molesters to justice, etc. But it appears that only goes so far as they don't have to do something hard or that might make them sad for a while. Again.
For the parents who feel guilt about taking their kids out of the church or not putting them in it on the first place: DONT. Like I said, I am so GRATEFUL to my parents for not foisting this burden on my shoulders.
simpsongal I think you have to be raised in the Church to understand. I consider myself atheist now and didn’t baptize my daughter because I don’t believe in it/don’t support the church’s position on all the issues discussed here/their absolute failure in handling the sexual abuse cases, and I still feel INTENSELY guilty over no longer attending church. It’s like a brainwashing or something.