Southwest has 34 Max 8s according to the response I got from their Twitter team today. There are currently no plans to ground them.
Yeah, the info on the flight site I checked was outdated. I did see a follow up that the vast majority of the SW Max 8 routes are in the Western U.S. (which makes sense since they are probably heavily weighted towards serving those areas).
If I recall correctly the max 8 is supposed to be their Hawaii planes which would make sense for them to be on the west coast.
Yeah, the info on the flight site I checked was outdated. I did see a follow up that the vast majority of the SW Max 8 routes are in the Western U.S. (which makes sense since they are probably heavily weighted towards serving those areas).
If I recall correctly the max 8 is supposed to be their Hawaii planes which would make sense for them to be on the west coast.
Yeah, the info on the flight site I checked was outdated. I did see a follow up that the vast majority of the SW Max 8 routes are in the Western U.S. (which makes sense since they are probably heavily weighted towards serving those areas).
If I recall correctly the max 8 is supposed to be their Hawaii planes which would make sense for them to be on the west coast.
You are correct. This isn't going to help this new route they just launched if people are wary about flying on this type of air craft. Or maybe people don't care and it will do just fine since a low fare to Hawaii has a strong pull.
I'm pretty sure that SWA Hawaii route isn't flying yet, though that was part of the plan for them
AA seems to have a concentration of them in Florida
Thanks, that map is super interesting. Especially since you can see a number of flights in the airspaces (or having moved through the air spaces of) countries which have grounded Max 8 (China, England, France, Malaysia., etc).
AA, Southwest and Air Canada need to get out in front of this since they have the most planes. I'm booking flights to Florida today and will skip AA.
We're planning on visiting my parents in NorCal next month (we always fly Southwest) but now I think I'd rather drive instead of fly even though it'll be a hassle. I'm not at all a nervous flyer usually but this has me concerned.
Southwest has something like 750+ planes, of which 34 are Max 8. AA has over 1000 planes, about 25 of which are Max 8. United has 800+ planes, of which 14 are Max 9 - so chances of being assigned one of these planes are very small at all of these airlines. I count 40 or 50 of them in the air right now over the US - and they aren't just dropping out of the sky.
What happened in Lion Air (and speculatively maybe EA too) is a single sensor went bad and gave false information that the plane was angled too high, which causes the MCAS system to (pretty aggressively) nose the plane down. The planes actually have two of these sensors, but the system apparently just uses one of them (assigned at takeoff) to tie to this system (which seems like a terrible design to me and is probably what this required Boeing software fix will address)
From what I understand, AA and SWA (and possibly united too - I don't know) are now ordering planes with an upgrade that gives the pilots information about what both sensors are doing. That means on these planes even if this were to happen, the pilots would be easily able to see that their sensors are in disagreement and quickly conclude what problem is happening and use the steps to overcome it. I wish these airlines would come out and confirm that all their planes in operation allow for both AOA sensors to be read from the cockpit because that change alone goes a long way in giving pilots the information they need to quickly address the issue.
Thanks for the info but I should have been more specific. According to the points guy link someone posted upthread, SW uses the MAX8 for the flight we take. Hence my reluctance to book the flight.
I'm pretty sure that SWA Hawaii route isn't flying yet, though that was part of the plan for them
AA seems to have a concentration of them in Florida
The Hawaii route starts flying on Friday!I know that there is quite a bit of panic from those that have booked flights on the max 8 to the point where people are canceling flights and going with other carriers. I also know that AA has told flight crews that if they are uncomfortable flying on a max 8 that they don't have fly on them.
Both my flights to and from Vegas (flying out of BWI) are on Max 8s. These flights are in May. But the other flights that day (same route, non stop flights) are on different planes, not Max 8s. Ugh, I am already an anxious traveler and make myself sick over this trip every year (it is for work).
ETA: I just read that there are more than 8,500 Boeing 737 Max 8 flights per week, so it's not like they are all dropping out of the sky... Trying to make myself feel better as I will be flying on one in a couple weeks.
Post by karinothing on Mar 12, 2019 14:04:41 GMT -5
I am surprised that the US isn't grounding them. If one does crash, it seems like it would really open up the airlines to a lawsuit since all other countries chose to ground.
I am surprised that the US isn't grounding them. If one does crash, it seems like it would really open up the airlines to a lawsuit since all other countries chose to ground.
I’m the opposite of surprised that the FAA under the Trump Administration is siding with the airlines over citizens. At least it won’t be headed by Trump’s personal pilot?
I am surprised that the US isn't grounding them. If one does crash, it seems like it would really open up the airlines to a lawsuit since all other countries chose to ground.
I’m the opposite of surprised that the FAA under the Trump Administration is siding with the airlines over citizens. At least it won’t be headed by Trump’s personal pilot?
this saddens me. I have always thought of the FAA as an agency that values learning from mistakes (crashes) with an absolute effort never to repeat them. Two planes experiencing similar issues, at take off, is a problem, not mention a lawsuit in the making.
I just think of the terror those poor people felt.
Post by aliciabella on Mar 12, 2019 17:40:48 GMT -5
I also wouldn't be surprised if the lack of sufficient training on the new Max 8s was also part of the issue. The plane may have worked as it should but without proper training/knowledge the pilots overcompensated and that error was part cause of the crash. This isn't to say the Boeing isn't responsible but most crashes are pilot error. I pray for those families.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the lack of sufficient training on the new Max 8s was also part of the issue. The plane may have worked as it should but without proper training/knowledge the pilots overcompensated and that error was part cause of the crash. This isn't to say the Boeing isn't responsible but most crashes are pilot error. I pray for those families.
It sounds like Boeing may be directly responsible if insufficient training was the issue (see the bottom of the linked NYT article):
"Five months later, the causes of that crash are still under investigation. But the tragedy revealed that Boeing and the F.A.A. determined that pilots did not need to be informed of changes to the Max 8’s flight control system, which may have contributed to the crash."
We have a flight coming up next month with Norwegian from providence RI and I just checked their site. They are grounding the max 8s, which gives me peace of mind. I was worried because I know they fly this plane on their providence to Ireland routes. They’re offering full refund or rebooking for canceled flights
I also wouldn't be surprised if the lack of sufficient training on the new Max 8s was also part of the issue. The plane may have worked as it should but without proper training/knowledge the pilots overcompensated and that error was part cause of the crash. This isn't to say the Boeing isn't responsible but most crashes are pilot error. I pray for those families.
It sounds like Boeing may be directly responsible if insufficient training was the issue (see the bottom of the linked NYT article):
"Five months later, the causes of that crash are still under investigation. But the tragedy revealed that Boeing and the F.A.A. determined that pilots did not need to be informed of changes to the Max 8’s flight control system, which may have contributed to the crash."
This makes me so angry on behalf of all of those people lost and their families that are left behind. How do you think a pilot does not need to know about an operating system on the plane, especially when dealing with take off and/landing, which is when most crashes happen.
It sounds like Boeing may be directly responsible if insufficient training was the issue (see the bottom of the linked NYT article):
"Five months later, the causes of that crash are still under investigation. But the tragedy revealed that Boeing and the F.A.A. determined that pilots did not need to be informed of changes to the Max 8’s flight control system, which may have contributed to the crash."
This makes me so angry on behalf of all of those people lost and their families that are left behind. How do you think a pilot does not need to know about an operating system on the plane, especially when dealing with take off and/landing, which is when most crashes happen.
This makes me so angry on behalf of all of those people lost and their families that are left behind. How do you think a pilot does not need to know about an operating system on the plane, especially when dealing with take off and/landing, which is when most crashes happen.
I am just... sputtering.
This must all be incredibly hard for you. (hugs)
It is, but it also just makes me so mad on behalf of all those people and how terrifying those moments must have been and it all, possibly, could have been avoided. it is senseless loss. I just do not understand.
Post by curbsideprophet on Mar 12, 2019 21:28:43 GMT -5
I am watching tonight’s Maddow and her A block is all about this issue. I feel ill. She keeps talking and it just gets worse.
I have family members who fly often. I have a fight in May that I checked and is not this plane. However I am definitely worried about my family members.
So highlights from Maddow...
Trump has never nominated anyone to lead the FAA. At one point he was considering his own pilot but that never happened.
Owner of Boeing has been to Mar a lago in the past and had been calling the president about this issue recently.
Boeing has been working on a software fix that was delayed 5-6 weeks because of the government shutdown.
In some semi-positive news
Elaine Chao has the power to ground the planes even if the FAA refuses. It sounds like members of Congress are starting to make some noise on this issue.
And I read other pilots, in the US, submitted reports about the nose tipping suddenly after engaging the autopilot after taking off, but were able to recover and turning the autopilot off. So, to me, the risk is higher or at least very much real.
the reason this happens with this plane is because in order to reduce fuel consumption (competing with an Airbus that is similar but was getting better fuel mileage) they shifted the wings either back or forward, but this can cause the nose to dip. So, they put that program in to correct it, but then never tell the pilots. the last part is what gets me so, so, so angry. because this could be looked at as pilot error, but they have been set up to fail if they are not informed and then trained in what to do should it happen.
And I read other pilots, in the US, submitted reports about the nose tipping suddenly after engaging the autopilot after taking off, but were able to recover and turning the autopilot off. So, to me, the risk is higher or at least very much real.
the reason this happens with this plane is because in order to reduce fuel consumption (competing with an Airbus that is similar but was getting better fuel mileage) they shifted the wings either back or forward, but this can cause the nose to dip. So, they put that program in to correct it, but then never tell the pilots. the last part is what gets me so, so, so angry. because this could be looked at as pilot error, but they have been set up to fail if they are not informed and then trained in what to do should it happen.
The pilots should be like, "Nope, not flying this thing until you fix it." Just like ATC put successful pressure on Trump to end the shutdown, I feel like the FAA and Elaine Chao won't back down unless the people at the controls refuse to fly.
I understand that is easier said than done. They have a union, but I still don't want pilots risking their careers (especially when the alternative could very well be risking their lives). I just hope there's a possibility that this can happen.
I’ve been traveling and got caught up via TRMS last night. It made me sick to my stomach. Yet another situation where we need a strong leader and what we have, is a self-interested grifter.
Post by UMaineTeach on Mar 13, 2019 8:36:23 GMT -5
One person is injured in a Honda air bag incident. 1.2 million vehicles recalled. Air bags manufactured by infamous Takata. Honda is working in cooperation with NTSB.
Yet, 346 people die in plane crushes while traveling in the same model new plane with apparently a software defect combined with lack of a training program, and no voluntary or government mandated grounding/recall.
One person is injured in a Honda air bag incident. 1.2 million vehicles recalled. Air bags manufactured by infamous Takata. Honda is working in cooperation with NTSB.
Yet, 346 people die in plane crushes while traveling in the same model new plane with apparently a software defect combined with lack of a training program, and no voluntary or government mandated grounding/recall.
Not really acceptable Boeing and FAA.
Pretty sure if the planes were say an Airbus instead of a Boeing the FAA would have grounded them immediately.
(per NBC News): Canadian transport minister says issuing safety notice halting Boeing 737 MAX aircraft from arriving, departing or overflying Canadian airspace effective immediately “as the result of new data that we received this morning” related to Ethiopian Airlines crash.
And I read other pilots, in the US, submitted reports about the nose tipping suddenly after engaging the autopilot after taking off, but were able to recover and turning the autopilot off. So, to me, the risk is higher or at least very much real.
the reason this happens with this plane is because in order to reduce fuel consumption (competing with an Airbus that is similar but was getting better fuel mileage) they shifted the wings either back or forward, but this can cause the nose to dip. So, they put that program in to correct it, but then never tell the pilots. the last part is what gets me so, so, so angry. because this could be looked at as pilot error, but they have been set up to fail if they are not informed and then trained in what to do should it happen.
There are accounts like this, but all the ones I've seen come after the Lion Air crash, when people were thinking about this issue - unexplained nose down before Lion Air and the explanation would be most telling, I think.
Also my understanding is that the MCAS nose down specifically requires that Autopilot is OFF, not ON. That's part of what makes this operation so strange and out of the norm for pilots. As you mentioned, several of these reports happened when AP was on - which means they wouldn't have been the same issue as Lion Air... at least if everything is working the way it is designed to (which i guess is an if) and if the pilots making the reports are accurate in their descriptions.
You touch on this in your post, but basically the reason this happened is Boeing needed to make a fuel efficient competitor to Airbus, so they put a more efficient (and larger) engine on an existing approved 737 frame. What is nice about that, is you don't have to totally redesign the plane ($$$ for design, approvals, testing, etc.) and you can also sell it to airlines like Southwest as "you already have all your pilots certified on this plane - they can just go to a 2 hour training and be set, as opposed to going through a whole new certification like it's a new plane."
The problem is that bigger engine sits in a different spot on the wing, which creates a potential to tip up dangerously at certain parts of flight. But instead of reworking the aerodynamics and having a new plane, new approvals, new training, etc. they just wrote some software to automatically correct the tip, thus saving all that money and time, and preserving the "this is an easy migration for your pilots" pitch.