Really interesting article in The Guardian about the environmental impact of growing almonds and how it affects bee populations. I feel like it's hard to keep up these days with what is and is not responsible in terms of protecting our environment. I think a lot of people switched over to plant-based milks, especially almond milk, thinking it was a better choice for both health and the environment, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.
I feel like we've always known almond milk is terrible for the environment, no? I feel like I knew like 10 years ago that it takes an insane amount of water to grow almonds. Vegans don't want to believe it though.
I feel like we've always known almond milk is terrible for the environment, no? I feel like I knew like 10 years ago that it takes an insane amount of water to grow almonds. Vegans don't want to believe it though.
Maybe I made this up. My memory is shit.
Yes, I've known since at least 2010. My daughter had MSPI and I turned to almond milk (which had the most protein of any non-dairy, non-soy milk alternative). I remember reading about the impact to water supplies and stopped buying it back then.
I don't think I knew it was bad when I first started drinking it but I do get that now. I don't drink it much now but I'm really thankful that it became available in my rural area because it opened up more options to me once my lactose intolerance started.
Basically I'm Chidi from the good place and know it's bad but can't totally ignore that it exists.
Oh and with the mention of soy milk, there's also the whole issue of consuming too much soy and its health effects that made me turn to almond milk.
Honestly milk alternatives can be really confusing to navigate. Especially in my area where some of the other options are still hard to find. I'd like to try oat milk but have yet to find it here.
Oh and with the mention of soy milk, there's also the whole issue of consuming too much soy and its health effects that made me turn to almond milk.
Honestly milk alternatives can be really confusing to navigate. Especially in my area where some of the other options are still hard to find. I'd like to try oat milk but have yet to find it here.
I'm not sure if you're still looking for options, but Fairlife has become really popular around me and is pretty easy to find. It's ultra-filtered (whatever that means) Milk that's lactose free. I feel like it tastes more like fresh milk from a local dairy in a glass bottle than the standard milk on the shelf. I'm not lactose free, but it's become my milk of choice.
I feel like we've always known almond milk is terrible for the environment, no? I feel like I knew like 10 years ago that it takes an insane amount of water to grow almonds. Vegans don't want to believe it though.
It’s frustrating when you can’t have cow milk or soy. Limited alternatives :/
I mean...I think everything in moderation. If people who can't tolerate cow or soy are drinking it then it's less of a problem. If every Joe Schmoe is moving to Venti Almond Milk Lattes 3 times a day then it becomes a huge issue.
Post by phunluvin82 on Jan 9, 2020 14:31:04 GMT -5
I knew that almond milk was not ideal from an environmental standpoint due to the water usage, but I did not know about the issue with bees...so that part is new information for me.
I had switched for a while to soy, then almond, then dabbled in other alternatives like coconut milk and banana milk. I finally switched back to regular old cow milk, but then again I have the luxury to choose that because I don't have intolerance. I was trying out alternatives purely due to the environmental and ethical implications of dairy farming. I do realize that I'm lucky in that regard. At the end of the day, I use such a small amount of milk that I basically just caved. I pretty much only use it in coffee and for that, in terms of taste and texture, I prefer dairy over the alternatives anyhow.
But I'm definitely still open to suggestions for environmentally sound dairy alternatives. Anyone have thoughts/opinions on oat milk?
Oh and with the mention of soy milk, there's also the whole issue of consuming too much soy and its health effects that made me turn to almond milk.
Honestly milk alternatives can be really confusing to navigate. Especially in my area where some of the other options are still hard to find. I'd like to try oat milk but have yet to find it here.
I'm not sure if you're still looking for options, but Fairlife has become really popular around me and is pretty easy to find. It's ultra-filtered (whatever that means) Milk that's lactose free. I feel like it tastes more like fresh milk from a local dairy in a glass bottle than the standard milk on the shelf. I'm not lactose free, but it's become my milk of choice.
We also drink Fairlife milk. There was a big controversy a few months ago about animal abuse on their farms and lots of stores stopped carrying it.
I'm not sure if you're still looking for options, but Fairlife has become really popular around me and is pretty easy to find. It's ultra-filtered (whatever that means) Milk that's lactose free. I feel like it tastes more like fresh milk from a local dairy in a glass bottle than the standard milk on the shelf. I'm not lactose free, but it's become my milk of choice.
We also drink Fairlife milk. There was a big controversy a few months ago about animal abuse on their farms and lots of stores stopped carrying it.
I've been following almond pollination and the impact on bees for a while now. I'm a beekeeper (east coast though so not involved with almonds) and this has been a hot topic in the bee groups. There seems to be mixed experiences, some beeks swear that their hives are at their most robust after almond pollination while others have this guy's experience.
IMO there is a whole mix of things at play with these bee deaths and drinking or not drinking almond milk isn't going to make much of a difference. Mr. Arp's 35% hive loss in in line with what most beeks, experienced and backyard, are experiencing whether or not they send bees for almond pollination. (Although, I am skeptical of how important hive loss % actually is. Everyone is getting into beekeeping these days and most first year beeks have high loss % usually due to poor management and not knowing what the fuck they are doing. I'd be more interested to see hive loss % of experienced, long-time beeks.) I only keep 3 hives, but I have lost one already this year and we're not even at the most crucial point of winter yet. I'm in the northeast and I think statewide, our losses have been around 30-40% the past few years.
Some people point all the fingers at pesticides, but what was not noted in the article is that pesticides are sprayed after pollination and after hives have been removed from the area so the bees aren't exposed to massive amounts of "omg chemikillz" as the article kind of leads you to believe. Some point the finger at mono-cropping. Beeks in eastern Canada that provide hives for blueberry pollination report some of the same issues. When you have thousands of acres (and I think over a million in the case of CA) of one type of pollen and nectar source, that would be like eating the same food over and over and over and is obviously not healthy. But on the flip side of that, bees are in the almond orchards for a month at most so that shouldn't have too much of an impact on them. I think if we were to all shun almond milk and turn to say, oat milk, we would soon be mono-cropping oats and that would come with its own drawbacks.
IMO, the biggest contributor to bee death is the varroa mite and the virus/es that they carry. I think the transporting of bees into such a concentrated area probably contributes to the spread. It also needs mentioning that honeybees are not native to North America and could that possibly be contributing? Killer bees are thriving and while not favored by beekeepers, they seem to have adapted to their environment much better than the European honeybee and so far seem to be pretty varroa-resistant.
I knew about the high water use of almonds, but the bee stuff is new to me. Thanks for posting.
I've done a little bit of research on this, and oat, coconut, hemp, and soy milk use significantly less water than almond or rice milk.
Although, I think it's worth noting that producing almond milk still uses less water than producing dairy milk, not to mention having a much lower carbon footprint.
Give me the confidence of someone posting, "Killer bees are thriving," and not in a "run away and scream" type of way
nospaekae, thanks for posting your experience. Do you know why you recently lost your hive?
I think my queen died in late fall while during a final mite treatment. There was evidence in the hive that they were trying to make a new queen, but I think it was just too late in the season for them. The mite treatments can be tough on bees, but the alternative is worse. There is a growing number of "natural" beekeepers (I call them the bee anti-vaxxers) that refuse to treat. It is a very divisive topic among beeks. The "natural" beeks think that they are weeding out the weak and only the strong varroa-resistant will survive. Beeks that treat accuse the bee anti-vaxxers of contributing to the spread by keeping hives that are mite bombs. I like the idea of what the "natural" beeks are doing and trying to build up varroa-resistant colonies, but I don't think we quite understand enough of what is going on to just back off and let them live or die. We've taken them into a non-native habitat, we make them live in wooden boxes, and we manipulate their environment to how we want them to live - we can't just say, "well good luck, take care of yourselves now."
I knew about the high water use of almonds, but the bee stuff is new to me. Thanks for posting.
I've done a little bit of research on this, and oat, coconut, hemp, and soy milk use significantly less water than almond or rice milk.
Although, I think it's worth noting that producing almond milk still uses less water than producing dairy milk, not to mention having a much lower carbon footprint.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but wanted to see if you you or anyone had accurate sources for carbon footprint on data of dairy v. almond v. oat, etc? Not being snarky - honestly interested! I'm curious to see the impact not only from water consumption but also harvesting, processing, and transport.
I grew up in the dairy industry and we do cow and goat milk. Goat milk from our own goats in the summer and cow milk from a local dairy in the goats' off-season. Beyond just liking cow and goat milk, my main focus for reducing our footprint has been on purchasing locally produced and processed. I do recognize that we are very fortunate to live in an area where we can do that. It is hard for me to imagine that our local dairy milk has a larger footprint than if I were to purchase any other kind of milk shipped across the country. Rather than on pushing a certain type of food, I would like to see a push towards locally sourced and in season foods as much as possible.
I've been following almond pollination and the impact on bees for a while now. I'm a beekeeper (east coast though so not involved with almonds) and this has been a hot topic in the bee groups. There seems to be mixed experiences, some beeks swear that their hives are at their most robust after almond pollination while others have this guy's experience.
IMO there is a whole mix of things at play with these bee deaths and drinking or not drinking almond milk isn't going to make much of a difference. Mr. Arp's 35% hive loss in in line with what most beeks, experienced and backyard, are experiencing whether or not they send bees for almond pollination. (Although, I am skeptical of how important hive loss % actually is. Everyone is getting into beekeeping these days and most first year beeks have high loss % usually due to poor management and not knowing what the fuck they are doing. I'd be more interested to see hive loss % of experienced, long-time beeks.) I only keep 3 hives, but I have lost one already this year and we're not even at the most crucial point of winter yet. I'm in the northeast and I think statewide, our losses have been around 30-40% the past few years.
Some people point all the fingers at pesticides, but what was not noted in the article is that pesticides are sprayed after pollination and after hives have been removed from the area so the bees aren't exposed to massive amounts of "omg chemikillz" as the article kind of leads you to believe. Some point the finger at mono-cropping. Beeks in eastern Canada that provide hives for blueberry pollination report some of the same issues. When you have thousands of acres (and I think over a million in the case of CA) of one type of pollen and nectar source, that would be like eating the same food over and over and over and is obviously not healthy. But on the flip side of that, bees are in the almond orchards for a month at most so that shouldn't have too much of an impact on them. I think if we were to all shun almond milk and turn to say, oat milk, we would soon be mono-cropping oats and that would come with its own drawbacks.
IMO, the biggest contributor to bee death is the varroa mite and the virus/es that they carry. I think the transporting of bees into such a concentrated area probably contributes to the spread. It also needs mentioning that honeybees are not native to North America and could that possibly be contributing? Killer bees are thriving and while not favored by beekeepers, they seem to have adapted to their environment much better than the European honeybee and so far seem to be pretty varroa-resistant.
This is seriously the most interesting thing my lactose-intolerant ass has read all day. Thank you for this!
This is seriously the most interesting thing my lactose-intolerant ass has read all day. Thank you for this!
Thanks! I'm a huge nerd for all things gardening, beekeeping, and agriculture. I typed this all out and was like, no one gives a crap about all this. LOL, but it made me feel good to geek out!
I knew about the high water use of almonds, but the bee stuff is new to me. Thanks for posting.
I've done a little bit of research on this, and oat, coconut, hemp, and soy milk use significantly less water than almond or rice milk.
Although, I think it's worth noting that producing almond milk still uses less water than producing dairy milk, not to mention having a much lower carbon footprint.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but wanted to see if you you or anyone had accurate sources for carbon footprint on data of dairy v. almond v. oat, etc? Not being snarky - honestly interested! I'm curious to see the impact not only from water consumption but also harvesting, processing, and transport.
I grew up in the dairy industry and we do cow and goat milk. Goat milk from our own goats in the summer and cow milk from a local dairy in the goats' off-season. Beyond just liking cow and goat milk, my main focus for reducing our footprint has been on purchasing locally produced and processed. I do recognize that we are very fortunate to live in an area where we can do that. It is hard for me to imagine that our local dairy milk has a larger footprint than if I were to purchase any other kind of milk shipped across the country. Rather than on pushing a certain type of food, I would like to see a push towards locally sourced and in season foods as much as possible.
The numbers they provide are global averages. Local sourcing can reduce some of the impacts, like fuel for shipping and rainforest deforestation, but it doesn't reduce others, like methane produced by cows. It's hard to quantify the reduction in emissions from eating local, and I haven't found any sources that do it well. Goat's milk is supposed to be more sustainable than cow's milk (though I don't know by how much), so local goat's milk might come out having a lower carbon footprint than non-dairy milks for you, but I'd be willing to bet local cow's milk still has a higher one.
I've been following almond pollination and the impact on bees for a while now. I'm a beekeeper (east coast though so not involved with almonds) and this has been a hot topic in the bee groups. There seems to be mixed experiences, some beeks swear that their hives are at their most robust after almond pollination while others have this guy's experience.
IMO there is a whole mix of things at play with these bee deaths and drinking or not drinking almond milk isn't going to make much of a difference. Mr. Arp's 35% hive loss in in line with what most beeks, experienced and backyard, are experiencing whether or not they send bees for almond pollination. (Although, I am skeptical of how important hive loss % actually is. Everyone is getting into beekeeping these days and most first year beeks have high loss % usually due to poor management and not knowing what the fuck they are doing. I'd be more interested to see hive loss % of experienced, long-time beeks.) I only keep 3 hives, but I have lost one already this year and we're not even at the most crucial point of winter yet. I'm in the northeast and I think statewide, our losses have been around 30-40% the past few years.
Some people point all the fingers at pesticides, but what was not noted in the article is that pesticides are sprayed after pollination and after hives have been removed from the area so the bees aren't exposed to massive amounts of "omg chemikillz" as the article kind of leads you to believe. Some point the finger at mono-cropping. Beeks in eastern Canada that provide hives for blueberry pollination report some of the same issues. When you have thousands of acres (and I think over a million in the case of CA) of one type of pollen and nectar source, that would be like eating the same food over and over and over and is obviously not healthy. But on the flip side of that, bees are in the almond orchards for a month at most so that shouldn't have too much of an impact on them. I think if we were to all shun almond milk and turn to say, oat milk, we would soon be mono-cropping oats and that would come with its own drawbacks.
IMO, the biggest contributor to bee death is the varroa mite and the virus/es that they carry. I think the transporting of bees into such a concentrated area probably contributes to the spread. It also needs mentioning that honeybees are not native to North America and could that possibly be contributing? Killer bees are thriving and while not favored by beekeepers, they seem to have adapted to their environment much better than the European honeybee and so far seem to be pretty varroa-resistant.
I thought the issue with the monoculture was not really such a problem for domesticated bees like these that are brought in to pollinate, but for wild pollinators. Only getting almond nectar and pollen is fine while the almond trees are blooming, but if there is only one or only a handful of crops close enough to the hive (or wherever--lots of native pollinators don't live in hives), the near complete lack of other pollen and nectar sources the rest of the year is devastating. A monoculture of healthy crop plants that aren't blooming is a desert for a bee.
This is seriously the most interesting thing my lactose-intolerant ass has read all day. Thank you for this!
Thanks! I'm a huge nerd for all things gardening, beekeeping, and agriculture. I typed this all out and was like, no one gives a crap about all this. LOL, but it made me feel good to geek out!
My old job had a lobbyist that was also an avid beekeper. It was SURPRISINGLY hard to find a beeking 501c3 at the time as a gift when she retired.
A lady I sing with raises bees. I buy her honey. So much better than the store stuff :-)
I feel like we've always known almond milk is terrible for the environment, no? I feel like I knew like 10 years ago that it takes an insane amount of water to grow almonds. Vegans don't want to believe it though.
Maybe I made this up. My memory is shit.
I mainly know this from Chidi in The Good Place.
I thought the same thing! And I feel like this thread is an episode out of season three. You make one good choice (chose plant based milk over cow milk) but ultimately end up among things worse then before because of the (unknown bee) impact to your choice.
Have any of you tried flax milk? It's on our list to try, I'm just hesitant to buy it only to end up dumping it down the drain.
Yes. It's okay - not my favorite kind of plant milk, but not bad. Kinda tasteless. I prefer unsweetened milks though, and I've only seen flax milk with added sugar, probably because unsweetened flax milk would be gross.
I thought the issue with the monoculture was not really such a problem for domesticated bees like these that are brought in to pollinate, but for wild pollinators. Only getting almond nectar and pollen is fine while the almond trees are blooming, but if there is only one or only a handful of crops close enough to the hive (or wherever--lots of native pollinators don't live in hives), the near complete lack of other pollen and nectar sources the rest of the year is devastating. A monoculture of healthy crop plants that aren't blooming is a desert for a bee.
Yes, there are a lot of issues with mono-cropping and it's impact on native pollinators. I just mentioned honeybees above since that was what the article was about. Mono-cropping, really no matter what the crop is, depletes the soil of various nutrients and is not good all around for soil health either.